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Volt Rework Feedback [Post Update 18.13]


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2 minutes ago, Cytobel said:

Frankly, too many 'Frames have "Exalted" weapons.  That's no more a solution than any other Band-aid would be.  Without adjusting his base stats for the purpose of bringing him in line with current game reality there's no point at all.

Look, if we go by the previous trailers and try to hold to abilities that appear to be (at least superficially) the same, we can make something work.  None of that will occur so long as Volt is sitting in a messed-up position statistically.  He's in a low-armor, low-mobility, "not CC" position without the ability firepower to kill or control enemies.  In this he's a waste of a cell slot.  Hell, he doesn't even bring mobility to the mix.

Volt is SOOO fast that there are only 5 slower 'Frames in game.  He's so blisteringly fast that there are 10 other 'Frames just as fast as him.  Ignore the 18 other 'Frames behind the curtain that move faster and thus gain more from Speed than Volt ever will.  Look at the mechanics of Speed, how you're trading energy for a BRIEF buff to movement.  Consider the utterly average 150 energy pool.  Laugh (because there's no point in crying).  Volt packs Electric Shield, which does so much for him that you cannot dismiss it.  Shock has gone from the worst 1st ability to the best, and now is hovering near the bottom again due to inconsistency...  As such I understand why people think a catch-all fix like an exalted weapon might do all the things.

REAL FIXES

First, base Volt goes up to a 225 energy pool at max level.  Normal and Prime Volt go to a sprint speed of 1.3 (so that Volt really IS the "fastest", aside from a teleporting Nova, but that's okay in my book).  I've been toying with the idea of Volt's passive only loosing half it's stacks per expenditure (drop from 1000 to 500, 500 to 250, etc.) in order to give him a more "electric eel discharge" feel there.  By the numbers this roughly doubles the damage output on the passive, but it'd work more smoothly and prevent accidental wastage somewhat.

Next, make Shock gain a multiplier to damage for proximity to target, up to a 3.0x multiplier, and give it the ability to be constant-cast.  Remove the corpse targeting entirely (or don't make corpses cound for the bounce limit), and prevent the ability from aiming itself until it's struck THE PLAYER'S initial target point.  Now Shock fits what we've seen in The Profit trailer and would have a bit of extra oomph to overcome armor at close range.

Third, Speed.  If Volt's sprint speed jumps to a 1.3 then all we need here is a base duration of AT MINIMUM 15 seconds.  I would recommend that scaling with Strength-builds be looked into as well, but that's as much a seperate issue as the harm it causes to team play to have a sudden and unannounced jump in mobility.  The only other thing is an interaction between Shock and Speed needs to be added.  Hmmm....  Shock and Speed.  It'd need to be some sort of shocky-speedy thing.  A speed shock thing.  Something that brings speedy shocks...  AHA!!  Ball Lightning!  Srsly tho, when you're Speeding along and cast Shock at a group in front of you, you should form a Ball Lightning behind your Volt headed in the same direction at the same speed as Volt.  Base it's damage off of the Shock's damage.  Let it roll into a group you just immobilized with a Shock as you sail overhead, raining death by lightning!

Fouth, Electric Shield.  Here we have only one thing on the ability proper:  a Shock-charged Electric Shield needs to proc electricity on things that make contact with it.  That's it.  For the Riot Shield, NO cost-per-meter please.  I'd be happier with a 3 energy-per-second than that.  Most improtantly though, I will NEVER use the Riot Shield so long as it slows me.  Remove the mobility penalty or it's a dead mechanic.

Finally we have Discharge.  Many people are talking about Duration being the spread mechanic.  This is because many people aren't seeing the basic issues with Speed, but ARE noting problems with Discharge.  In this situation, I don't mind a spread based off of either Range or Duration, so long as I can bring the ability to bear effectively against a large-enough area.  The DPS "buff" did nothing but nerf Discharge because of the damage cap.  This would be fixed by cutting base damage to 450 and removing the cap entirely.  As to the interaction with Shock, I'd have Shock stack on the DPS output for the chaining from Discharge.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There we go.  A working Volt, no abilities replaced.  A Volt that uses what is in his kit more effectively, brings more to the table for a new player, and doesn't need a massive, drawn-out rebuild.  Hell, none of the numbers I've written need to be worried about particularly.  If they're over the top, then they can be toned back.  If they're under-performing they can be scaled up slightly.

A stupid easy fix that could be done in a matter of hours.

I like the corpse target. I think making the corpse nit count sounds better. The amprex is nice this way too, gives you that extra little reach you need.

I like this too

 

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@(PS4)WINDMILEYNO: The Amprex comparison isn't quite correct, because that weapon carries itself through pure crit.  Otherwise close enough.

That's why I recommend the close range damage buff.  I still want Shock to remain distinct from the Amprex and the Synapse, but have a chance of good damage at lower-end gameplay (higher-end Starchart) at a tradeoff of close-range combat.

Edited by Cytobel
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14 hours ago, Cytobel said:

Frankly, too many 'Frames have "Exalted" weapons.  That's no more a solution than any other Band-aid would be.  Without adjusting his base stats for the purpose of bringing him in line with current game reality there's no point at all.

Look, if we go by the previous trailers and try to hold to abilities that appear to be (at least superficially) the same, we can make something work.  None of that will occur so long as Volt is sitting in a messed-up position statistically.  He's in a low-armor, low-mobility, "not CC" position without the ability firepower to kill or control enemies.  In this he's a waste of a cell slot.  Hell, he doesn't even bring mobility to the mix.

Volt is SOOO fast that there are only 5 slower 'Frames in game.  He's so blisteringly fast that there are 10 other 'Frames just as fast as him.  Ignore the 18 other 'Frames behind the curtain that move faster and thus gain more from Speed than Volt ever will.  Look at the mechanics of Speed, how you're trading energy for a BRIEF buff to movement.  Consider the utterly average 150 energy pool.  Laugh (because there's no point in crying).  Volt packs Electric Shield, which does so much for him that you cannot dismiss it.  Shock has gone from the worst 1st ability to the best, and now is hovering near the bottom again due to inconsistency...  As such I understand why people think a catch-all fix like an exalted weapon might do all the things.

REAL FIXES

First, base Volt goes up to a 225 energy pool at max level.  Normal and Prime Volt go to a sprint speed of 1.3 (so that Volt really IS the "fastest", aside from a teleporting Nova, but that's okay in my book).  I've been toying with the idea of Volt's passive only loosing half it's stacks per expenditure (drop from 1000 to 500, 500 to 250, etc.) in order to give him a more "electric eel discharge" feel there.  By the numbers this roughly doubles the damage output on the passive, but it'd work more smoothly and prevent accidental wastage somewhat.

Next, make Shock gain a multiplier to damage for proximity to target, up to a 3.0x multiplier, and give it the ability to be constant-cast.  Remove the corpse targeting entirely (or don't make corpses cound for the bounce limit), and prevent the ability from aiming itself until it's struck THE PLAYER'S initial target point.  Now Shock fits what we've seen in The Profit trailer and would have a bit of extra oomph to overcome armor at close range.

Third, Speed.  If Volt's sprint speed jumps to a 1.3 then all we need here is a base duration of AT MINIMUM 15 seconds.  I would recommend that scaling with Strength-builds be looked into as well, but that's as much a seperate issue as the harm it causes to team play to have a sudden and unannounced jump in mobility.  The only other thing is an interaction between Shock and Speed needs to be added.  Hmmm....  Shock and Speed.  It'd need to be some sort of shocky-speedy thing.  A speed shock thing.  Something that brings speedy shocks...  AHA!!  Ball Lightning!  Srsly tho, when you're Speeding along and cast Shock at a group in front of you, you should form a Ball Lightning behind your Volt headed in the same direction at the same speed as Volt.  Base it's damage off of the Shock's damage.  Let it roll into a group you just immobilized with a Shock as you sail overhead, raining death by lightning!

Fouth, Electric Shield.  Here we have only one thing on the ability proper:  a Shock-charged Electric Shield needs to proc electricity on things that make contact with it.  That's it.  For the Riot Shield, NO cost-per-meter please.  I'd be happier with a 3 energy-per-second than that.  Most improtantly though, I will NEVER use the Riot Shield so long as it slows me.  Remove the mobility penalty or it's a dead mechanic.

Finally we have Discharge.  Many people are talking about Duration being the spread mechanic.  This is because many people aren't seeing the basic issues with Speed, but ARE noting problems with Discharge.  In this situation, I don't mind a spread based off of either Range or Duration, so long as I can bring the ability to bear effectively against a large-enough area.  The DPS "buff" did nothing but nerf Discharge because of the damage cap.  This would be fixed by cutting base damage to 450 and removing the cap entirely.  As to the interaction with Shock, I'd have Shock stack on the DPS output for the chaining from Discharge.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There we go.  A working Volt, no abilities replaced.  A Volt that uses what is in his kit more effectively, brings more to the table for a new player, and doesn't need a massive, drawn-out rebuild.  Hell, none of the numbers I've written need to be worried about particularly.  If they're over the top, then they can be toned back.  If they're under-performing they can be scaled up slightly.

A stupid easy fix that could be done in a matter of hours.

I've stated this over and over.  If I had direct access to a dev I'd bend thier ear with this instead.  If nothing else I'd love to hear why this isn't an appropriate fix from the horse's mouth, as it were.  I COULD ACTUALLY WORK ON COMING UP WITH BETTER THEN.

Like the idea of Shock - Speed synergy, reminds me of Dota 2's Storm Spirit, Ball Lightning ability (Spoiler). It could even help to charge passive faster, same mechanics that has character in Dota. Still kinda sceptical about some kinda of realisation of that, too much efforts for ol' man Volt. The problem is Volt is kinda the past, in the past he wasn't that good, even pre-status system, there's been the time he was totaly useless vs. infestation because of electrical damage type (shock, overload, in some manner + damage from shield), but, but he had his shield + synapse + amprex + beam type weps and other high crit. base weps (i'm high % of Lanka and Paris Prime user) (except Flux Rifle, still useless :( ) and freaking awesome crit. multiplier + damage stacked by infinite number of shields, and that Rainbow damage was freaking hilarious with the shield. And Overload, was the overload, good only on Venus, and Corpus tilesets, 2 seconds Jesus Stance, and almost everytime probably you were down or killed during the cast, almost same story nowadays. Unique difference from there to here is that after Status damage type was released and if you are been able to cast OVERLOAD, you could STUNLOCK pretty large area w/o tesla coiling, and damage cap, and for almost infinite amount of time, recasting it everytime. Now, with the Volt rework 1.5 (not even complete in 2 years) we have guarantied 4 sec. of stun and damage cap that draws away not even in sec, after the fixed duration of the CC. That's why i couldn't understand the logic, why does VOLT is not CC frame, that he was gone to Status mechanics release, why now we changing his spec? Electricity is not the strongest damage type in game if not combine in something, with this damage type we can only shred corpus only in regular Star Chart missions. Physicaly Volt can't be a massive damage dealer if not with the gun. He's not Mesa, he's not Nidus (scaling), he's not {add Waframe Name here} ecc. He never been nice, he'll not probably be in those conditions. 

TL:DR
Volt in the past vs. Volt in present - CC frame (after status release) vs. notDDnotCCGunplayer (reworked).
We have plenty of ideas, I wrote some of them in the past by myself, we will see in the future how would it turns around. Untill then i'll continue to play to reinvent and post feedbacks.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by Cryone
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Why would they?  They don't know what to do to fix him.  After all, they haven't been reading the rework megathread.

(Okay, so that's just a joking dig at any dev that actually does.  Then again, your lack of input makes it just like you're not even here...  Ninja less, dammit!)

Seriously though, the answers are simple but unpalatable to DE: the rework didn't take and more effort is needed than they want to put in right now.

Heck, I like my idea for a rework, but that doesn't mean it fits what they want to do.  They may ACTUALLY have a plan.  After all this time I doubt it, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.  And, after all, why go with what I (or any of us) have suggested?  They've come up with better in the past.

Then again, they also made Zephyr and that's an issue they need to approach as well.

Edited by Cytobel
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I'm in the camp of small tweaks to Volt, I think he's not that bad personally. The only changes I know I'd make:

1. Increased base energy on the default is reasonable since he operates kinda like Saryn with heavy reliance on tons of efficiency and spam casting certain abilities not quite as heavy as Saryn though. The thing is once he has efficiency with energy pool he does well.

2. His Speed and shield having very slight duration boosts, or decreased cast cost while the ability is active. Both are viable solutions I think. If the duration is boosted, big energy efficiency builds doesn't make those abilities as necessary to constantly spam. Reducing cost while active means they have a certain amount to start, but if you maintain momentum of use they stay cheap and in use. If this route is taken, shock may also need some way to reduce multiple quick cast costs.

2a. Possible solution to Shock's quick multiple cast costs, is the continuous beam route. Hold to continuously cast. Side note: Not sure what people are saying with his firsts inconsistency to use compared to before, (I'm not sure what's inconsistent in the first place probably because I'm used to casting it 3 shots at a time so I don't notice so feel free to explain this to me.) but I think this would solve that problem as well.

3. Shield should not remove speed when held. Don't know why it does. Cost of energy/meter also seems non-sensical to me. Why not just put the shield down if you aren't really able to move with it, and get the full size benefits? Why would I prefer drain/meter over drain/time? Why have a drain/time when the duration isn't super long and the small amount of protection it gives? I find I pretty much always use the full size shield anyway, and mostly just pickup the shield to move it.

4. Discharge, I have only ever used this for CC, and rarely since his first seems way way better at this. This is a really slow ability, either the wave needs to speed up or that casting animation (probably both). I don't think the damage cap should be there, rather the way it arcs between enemies should be capped. (I also don't fully understand why it has the reaction without the damage cap. My current understanding is that when cast it releases a wave that procs enemies with electricity which arcs between enemies of a certain distance jumping back and forth until the damage cap is hit or enough enemies have died that the distance to arc to a new enemy is too far for the effect to continue. If this isn't correct please explain)

I don't really have issue with the rest of his kit, is passive is kinda slow to charge but I like what it does.

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Ultimate updates. There's Road Map (Spoiler) of what is gonna be released in 2017 and early 2018, including IPS (Impact, Puncture, Slash) damage and Khora (new warframe). From this info it's clear that there's no plans on Volt any time soon, but....(butt), not at all. We already know (from the latest workshop) that damage 2.5 will have the second part, that one of the status and elemental damage types rework. Soooo, from all words that have been spoken, and some thoughts i pressume that damage 2.5 (3.0) can significantly improve (or not) some of the status procs and possibly can (partialy) be a thing for Volt and Volt players. 

Hope that the best is yet to come, we will see. For now wanna wish all a Merry Christmass and happy holidays!

 

ROAD MAP

Spoiler

 

WORKSHOP

Spoiler

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cryone said:

Ultimate updates. There's Road Map (Spoiler) of what is gonna be released in 2017 and early 2018, including IPS (Impact, Puncture, Slash) damage and Khora (new warframe). From this info it's clear that there's no plans on Volt any time soon, but....(butt), not at all. We already know (from the latest workshop) that damage 2.5 will have the second part, that one of the status and elemental damage types rework. Soooo, from all words that have been spoken, and some thoughts i pressume that damage 2.5 (3.0) can significantly improve (or not) some of the status procs and possibly can (partialy) be a thing for Volt and Volt players. 

Hope that the best is yet to come, we will see. For now wanna wish all a Merry Christmass and happy holidays!

 

ROAD MAP

  Hide contents

 

WORKSHOP

  Hide contents

 

 

Well maybe this time they'll plan real changes.

Or they'll just ship unwanted changes.

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Odd as it may seem, I'm really hoping DE were rather offended with the way so many of us slammed their balancing methods.  I only say that because I genuinely hope they question why we were so vehemently opposed to Damage 2.5, and that DE begins to review things in depth.  I HOPE they wind up deciding that there are many weapons that simply cannot perform under the current damage model, and that we see a wave of PROPER reworking to many weapons and 'Frames.

They've shown us they can fix serious problems on 'Frames and equipment, now it's time to get serious with the REAL fixes again.  After that, maybe a solid, well-planned and -tested damage rework would be a fine idea.

I still dream of better for Volt, even when I don't hope for much at all.

Edited by Cytobel
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So I've been noticing a number of Volt threads popping up again.  It's interesting to see the number of Speed complaints and Discharge woes posts...

"Volt is not CC" is the newest Volt meme it seems.  Anyone have any good pics for this?

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Iv never fought an acolyte, never seen one...iv never spent time looking for ayatan statues/scultpures and have no clue what to do with the one i found...i maybe play 2 hours total a week, or every other week, and thats figuring in all the time i spend just logging in so my clan doesnt kick me. One reason why i play (ed) : volt. 

....so many better games coming out, and Warframe is still basically the same game, they couldnt even change the infested or add different enemy types for the boil on the plains...

I hate mentioning other games, but if they would just take cole mcgraths ultimate from the first game, make shock work like bio shock infinites shock jockey, make speed a passive of another ability or something ( i like nier automatas dodge/blink animation that also is the sprint button when not in combat) and keep sheild sheild...maybe id never leave this game again...but thats just typed out on this screen, and itll never leave this screen.

Take a melting pot and mix all this together

Environment:

random lightning strikes

Random electrical machinery in tile sets, the button you push on infested hijack missions that emits old overloads electrical attack.

Objects :

circuitry containers

Enemies : 

Rainalyst 

Vor (4 different powers)

Etc.

Weapons:

Ohm

Castanas

Amprex

Etc...

Voila, warframes version.

 

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21 hours ago, Cytobel said:

So I've been noticing a number of Volt threads popping up again.  It's interesting to see the number of Speed complaints and Discharge woes posts...

"Volt is not CC" is the newest Volt meme it seems.  Anyone have any good pics for this?

well i often post volt thread, its not like his discharge has problem or something everytime i make a post, its just maybe they can change it into something cooler, dont get me wrong. current discharge is still useful to me, its a panic button.

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If DE resist on giving volt too much rework, then can i ask for this :

shock - make it consistent on targetting enemies.. sometimes it hits without proper aim, sometimes it wont even i aim it accurately

speed - last night, i accidentally cast speed 3 times in a row, and suddenly i got an idea.. what if we can recast speed and get increased speed every cast (cap at 3 times maybe).. i dont really good at number, but maybe there’s someone that agree with me can pull the number..

electric shield - i dont have any problem with this post-buff..

discharge - im fine with its damage, duration, and range.. what i dislike is its inconsistency to cc the enemy, because its duration tied to damage it dealt.. some tweaks i think will be fine, but right now, it’s not really reliable..

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