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Valkyr Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]


[DE]Danielle
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5 minutes ago, Momo93 said:

I have hundreds of hours in her if you don't believe me then that's your problem.

What? How is this relevant other than proving you wrong more and more? Do you read anything but the first two words?

5 minutes ago, Momo93 said:

The other frames should have been brought up not Valkyr down. 

Other frames were and are in a good condition. Valkyr's immunity was horribly overpowered compared to other "supposed to be melee classes" such as Rhino and Excal.

2 hours ago, Momo93 said:

I only had Narrow Minded. But I don't find it fun that I have to stack power duration and lose power strenght.

Oh hey, you can't stack all four attributes? What a shame.

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1 minute ago, XtDK said:

This is stupid.  First, there are a handful of tanky frames that can manage to brush against nullifier bubbles without worry. Even if your toggles fade for a brief moment you can often get out. And then, just about every frame has a way to pop them reliably from range.  Valkyr is the only frame that instantly dies when they run out of energy or touch a bubble. That's gamebreaking for her.

As for her skillcap, Valkyr's cap is fairly high.   Popping nullifier bubbles (multiple bubbles) with melee is a necessary skill. Using her single target damage and ability to revive consistently, as well, were invaluable.  And it's worth saying that the advent of bloodrush + bodycount means that her hysteria damage isn't actually as high anymore.

And as for immunities... I don't know.  Maybe Ash's consistent invulnerability due to blade storm, Chroma's tankiness, Wukong's defy, and Trinity's 99% damage reduction all effectively avoid death and leave the frames with an openness that Valkyr does not have.

Unfortunately, they also crushed Trinity in this same update. At least for games with multiple people. Bless damage reduction is average % health of ALL frames. what you will normally get with 4 people is now about a 50% damage reduction. solo though still works just as well if not better but bless was crushed for team games. total nerf count this update, Mirage blind, kinda expected, valkyr here, excaliber EB, Trinity blessbut not EV, and mag is not nearly as good at corpus damage as she was as her abilities dont scale now.

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4 minutes ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

Unfortunately, they also crushed Trinity in this same update. At least for games with multiple people. Bless damage reduction is average % health of ALL frames. what you will normally get with 4 people is now about a 50% damage reduction. solo though still works just as well if not better but bless was crushed for team games. total nerf count this update, Mirage blind, kinda expected, valkyr here, excaliber EB, Trinity blessbut not EV, and mag is not nearly as good at corpus damage as she was as her abilities dont scale now.

Oh, right.  Trinity is still pretty OP as a support frame though (EV is just a broken skill).  What I don't get though is how they made Mag worse.  That's like nerfing Oberon.

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15 minutes ago, XtDK said:

And then, just about every frame has a way to pop them reliably from range.  Valkyr is the only frame that instantly dies when they run out of energy or touch a bubble. That's gamebreaking for her.

Ah sorry, my bad, I thought Valkyr could equip guns as well. The only frame? I could think of a few more: Ash, Frost, Excal, Equinox, Loki, Mag, Mirage, Nyx, Rhino, Zephyr. Those are the only ones I have played. Every frame becomes highly vulnerable the moment the energy runs out or they touch a skill-banishing bubble. There are no invisible guardian angels.

15 minutes ago, XtDK said:

As for her skillcap, Valkyr's cap is fairly high.   Popping nullifier bubbles (multiple bubbles) with melee is a necessary skill. 

How is the skill cap high when you run next to an enemy and one shot it? And how is it necessary? Guess what, it's not. The bubbles are supposed to cause harm and delay.

Edited by Siideriu
Clarification
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Gonna have to agree with the people who posted before me and asked for changes to her other powers. One of the reasons why Hysteria has become an "issue" is because it is so much better then the rest of Valkyr's powers. Now you've made Hysteria less useful and it is still waaaay better then any of her other powers.

I can understand the desire to fix a power that can be easily exploited and that can potentially lead to boredom. But that desire should lead you to fixing uninteresting and unreliable powers as well.

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1 minute ago, Siideriu said:

Ah sorry, my bad, I thought Valkyr could equip guns as well.

 

How is the skill cap high when you run next to an enemy and one shot it? And how is it necessary? Guess what, it's not. The bubbles are supposed to cause harm and delay.

I knew you were ignorant but not that much.  Okay, honey, Hysteria...  it makes you invicible but you can't use guns.  And now, it's not possible to disengage from Hysteria to use a gun without dying instantly. (And I mean, instantly).  In fact, disengaging Hysteria in itself is not possible to do safely later on even with preparation. (Which, I'm assuming you don't know how large the radius on the suicide bubble is now- hm?)

And in high end missions, Valkyr will not one-shot enemies (outside of finishers) but other frames can manage this on a large scale  Her use is being a combination of tanky, spiking with single target finishers, and providing emergency revives.  Her damage on its own is fairly lackluster when you consider how it is applied. 

By the same logic, sniper rifles would be op for being able to gib one enemy at a time.

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Honestly, I was pissed when I read about the incoming nerf to Valkyr - some might even say I was hysterical.

However, after having some time to try the new Hysteria, it's really not that bad. I'm sad to see the old invuln queen humbled, but it was really long overdue. No Frame should be capable of effectively permanent invulnerability, and tbh it made some of the more difficult content like Sortie missions, high-level Survival, etc. completely trivial. And yet, what really changed? You can still stay damn near permanently invincible as long as you have a constant flow of enemies to kill and grab energy orbs from... or an EV... or containers to bust open, or whatever. You just have to work for it. And if there's nothing to take your aggression out on near you, guess what? You stop being hysterical. How appropriate!

I didn't feel that the ability post-nerf suffered too bad running the same old build I've always ran, except now I feel like there's more of an interplay between the states of "no Hysteria, build energy using Rage mod" and "Hysteria, keep energy up as long as possible" than ever before - because now it's entirely possible to drop out of Hysteria naturally.

Her whole kit really needs a second look imo, since this still doesn't change the fact that we all use this Frame for ONE ability (maybe two?), but this is actually a fairly inoffensive step in the right direction as long as you have any clue how to build her.

Now, the Trinity Blessing nerf, on the other hand...

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At least buff her other powers!

1 Rip line can pull more than 5 enemies,

2 She keep a aura of half of the range that slow enemies for half of the initial buff

3 Give it more RANGE!, and make it so it can`t be interrupted, like a heavy gunner slam.

4 what can i say, maybe do something with nullfilers making you cosmic dust.

if nothing is done, the only real way to play her will be eternal war+ mele , yeah but hey you will nerf that soon to~ 

And hey! maybe not sure if you want to leave it to the next year or till dex exca come out, but make the blood rush- body count work with her ult, or maybe let us mode the histeria and mele separate.

Edited by kajiss1
*shrug*
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I haven't tested the time on hysteria now and maybe it needs some tweaking as it gets looked at but I like the 1st part of the change in theory.

The 2nd part is just dumb, sorry. This is a berserker rage... so the berserker has to go find a quiet corner to come out of her rage or take dmg? Walk into a nully - dmg, (a nully that is not LOS and comes through walls behind you sometimes). Walk into a leech? Dmg, Etc etc.

The rage exhausting at the wrong time is already tough on valkyr that are built to use hysteria (low survivability outside it). I just think the 2nd part should go. Let the players work out the first part and not worry about hysteria turning off, that seems both less fun, and totally out of character for the kit.

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5 minutes ago, XtDK said:

And now, it's not possible to disengage from Hysteria to use a gun without dying instantly. (And I mean, instantly).  In fact, disengaging Hysteria in itself is not possible to do safely later on even with preparation.

What are you talking about? Hysteria can be cancelled by pressing the ability key again. I don't see how you suddenly become something other than an Ash outside of Bladestorm, a visible Loki or a Rhino who loses his iron skin? ROFL.

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2 minutes ago, Siideriu said:

What are you talking about? Hysteria can be cancelled by pressing the ability key again. I don't see how you suddenly become something other than an Ash outside of Bladestorm, a visible Loki or a Rhino who loses his iron skin? ROFL.

Valkyr has this radius around her, if there is an enemy in that radius when hysteria ends she takes damage from her time in hysterian invuln. that radius is now a FIXED 20 m and WILL oneshot you.

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DE really ruined valkyr with that 2nd part. I completely understand the logic behind the first part and i am kinda happy about it, but having both increasing-over-time energy drain + suicide bubble just made valk impossible for CC

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Wait, does this "suicide bubble" mechanic really exist in the form you all are describing? I didn't notice it and wasn't aware, but if that's really the case, then I propose this as a way to unscrew it:

Make the damage counter tick towards 0 over time constantly, so the damage received more reflects how much damage you've taken RECENTLY.

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Okay, I'll give my 2 cents here. Just to be clear, I just skimmed some of the previous comments, so I might be repeating stuff that was already mentioned (I actually will repeat what I read and agreed), but anyway. This is my view on stuff.

Personally, this nerf affected me a lot less than I expected. Arguably, in a solo mission with tightly packed enemies or in a defense-survival with a lot of energy pickyps, there will be absolutely no difference.

But there's a catch: it affected ME a lot less than I expected. And I am not all players.

I'm lucky enough to have some primed and corrupted mods (they're not maxed, but still that's far above your average player) and I've been playing Valkyr literally since Day One, when she could only be bought with plat.

This nerf makes little effect to endgame players with plenty of access to mods and that are able to mitigate a drawback that was already huge even before the nerf:
Valkyr is a warframe made of extremes.

Lemme be more clear. I'll list some of the significant points of Valkyr, which most veterans know from heart:

  • - She has absolutely dismal shields, even when using Redirection. Actually, since Redirection and Vigor are multiplicative and her base shields are so dismal, most players will simply never use those.
  • - Her HP pool is just average, backed up by a hefty armor value to make it more effective. Yet, without maxed Vitality, Valkyr has a very short life in a firefight. You'd have to stack on armor and HP mods just to make her able to sustain multiple firefights, and even so, after a while you'd just be running for health pickups, rely on Vazarin or on healer teammates or simply a health pizza.
  • - Her default Hysteria energy consumption is HUGE. At a base 2.5 per second, ramping up to a cap of (I assume "double" because of the "up to 100% counter) 5 energy per second (EDIT: It's not double, it's 6 times the base value, ramping to 15 energy per second). Coupled with a very small energy pool, that's simply a black hole for energy. To mitigate that, you gotta ramp up both Duration and Efficiency. Giving my current build as example, with max Streamline, Blind Rage at 7/10 and Primed Continuity, Narrow Minded and Primed Flow all at 9/10, I have a drain of 1.15 energy per second (I assume 2.30 at the drain cap -- EDIT: It's actually 6,9). But did you get the catch? 2 primed mods and a Corrupted Mod, all 3 almost maxed. You really can't assume that the average player will have that at their disposal. And even so, note that this needed 4 mods to decrease the drain to something "manageable", yet still annoying.
  • - And (EDIT: almost) last point of this list, her damage scaling. All Valkyr veterans know how Valkyr struggled to get decent damage scaling. First she got that buff that solidified her bread-and-butter of Invulnerability + Lifesteal, and she already benefited from Steel Charge. Then later she got the rework that added a stance and a combo counter, which could ramp up her melee damage. Then she got even better scaling with the introduction of new mods and new possible builds (especially after we got 2 extra mod slots after the removal of Ability Mods). Then she got the scaling with melee weapon stats and, finally, scaling with weapon mods, which at last made Valkyr a viable damage-dealer into more endgame content.
  • She's super dependant on her energy pool. She can't recover energy during hysteria, and people just don't run Energy Syphon on her very often because she needs the extra damage scaling from Steel Charge or Corrosive Projection. ...Couple that with any energy drain eximus / nullifier field / disruption proc and welp, your energy pool just went down the drain. Mitigation? Primed Flow, Equilibrium, efficiency mods and so on.

But did any of you get the catch in all of those points?
...They all require mods to compensate.

And here we enter a catch22 that's present since the very inception of Valkyr: she need far too many mods for far too few mod slots, even after we got 2 extra slots from the Ability overhaul. You need 1 through 5 mods to make her naturally tanky (without powers), 4 mods to maker her Hysteria last decently, 4 mods to max + an aura + 8 weapon mods to ramp up her damage output... And note that some of those are mutually excludent: maximizing Power will take a toll on her Duration. Trying to ramp up both will make her extremely frail when outside of Hysteria. Maximizing just Hysteria might make Warcry less than optimal.

And that would be okay if Valkyr could hold herself alone on those combinations, but that's not so simple. If you want her to survive enemy fire, you have to make her less effective in hew own native skills. If you want her to be good in her native skills, you have to pick: Hysteria or the other 3. And if you want her to be really effective in Hysteria, you will have a very frail frame during heavy shooty action.

My point is: she's a warframe of extremes that works very well when tailored to those, but she becomes utterly useless on the other aspects when done so. And that cripples her combat effectiveness: you have either a struggly mush, a tanky gunner who has super short and weak powers, or a rage powerhouse that can't survive more than a couple firefights. Unlike a lot of other frames, you have no middle ground with Valkyr -- and the closest you can get to one will basically cost a fortune in mods, fusion cores and effort, while other frames can be played just fine out of the box.

...I know that was a lot of complaining but little suggestions, but that's because... it is complicated. Her kit is, by nature, hard to tailor, because she's a melee lightning bruiser with dismal survivability out of the box and out of powers, and far too many mods are needed to maker her scale well, especially in the "middle range".
Some ideas? I can give some:

  • - Explore the scaling of the melee combo window, like you did with Wukong. If she gets a way to ramp up her combo window (for example, making it longer the longer she stays into Hysteria) might help to make long Hysteria dives more rewarding instead of plain penalizing the player for a combat mode that has a flat positive side and a scaling negative side. Maybe if her combo windows also get longer, there would be an incentive for players to drop some of the Power Strength mods and be able to invest in combo duration; heck, coupling this with Eternal War could make it viable to build a Valkyr that can run Warcry+Hysteria without having to sacrifice so much on survivability when out of powers.
  • - Change her passive to compensate for her native lack of survivability. The "cats always fall on their feet" is a nice pun and all, but she could really use something that helps with her needs and her theme of being a berserker. How about she builds up overshields with each melee kill? That could make a good synergy with Paralysis. That could also help Valkyr to survive when she pops out of Hysteria to enter a firefight. ...Oh, and before you go "But what about the damage that should make Valkyr be wary of disengaging Hysteria?" Simple: make it be direct Health damage, bypassing any shield buildup.
  • - This could be tricky, but her energy drain increase could be proportional to the combat buildup (just like what triggers Juggernauts) instead of plain increase over time, and it could decrease while she's not in intense combat. That would force Valkyr to be wary of the intensity of the combat, and not just "how much time she spends in Hysteria". "And why just not DISABLE hysteria when not in use?", well, if you're asking that, you should see how much energy that consumes in a power build >.>
  • - [NEW!] Another option for passive could be the other approach that's being taken with Passives: integrating into the warframe the same mechanics as some mods that otherwise would be complementary or mandatory. And of all mods, there's one that matches Valkyr almost perfectly, and very often is an integral part of a Valkyr's build: Rage. So the new passive could be "Berserker Rage: Part of the damage to Health is converted into Energy". This would not solve the "frail shooter" problem directly, but it would help solving the energy issues, while potentially freeing up another mod slot (which is very precious in a Valkyr).


There are many other ways, but I'm quite tired right now XD
I can give it more thought and make a true "suggestions post" for Valkyr later.

Cheers, and thanks anyway for trying to improve with every patch; even with some slips and wonky steps.

[EDIT2: Well, after I actually became more active in this thread, I actually made some other posts with more suggestions for changes (some that I think are a lot better than the ones on this post, and actually backed by some playtesting I made. Pasting them here would complicate everything so... just look at the rest of the thread, and you'll see some more suggestions. My posts are usually big and easy to spot, I type a lot :P ]

Edited by DoppelShifter
some typos and incomplete ideas // new data about energy
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Okay so now what you've done is made the rest of her abilities useless while she's in Hysteria because you run out of energy way to fast. Surely there are other ways of fixing this problem that don't gimp her to death. Your falling into the same trap that Blizzard did with Diablo 3 nerf things when you should be bringing other war frames up to her level of play.

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3 minutes ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

Valkyr has this radius around her, if there is an enemy in that radius when hysteria ends she takes damage from her time in hysterian invuln. that radius is now a FIXED 20 m and WILL oneshot you.

Aha! So there's a counter mechanism for running next to a Nullifier in God mode, killing him and reactivating it? Twenty meters isn't bad. There are always corners and room to abuse. That's the first good thing I've heard today.

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2 minutes ago, Kappatalist said:

Wait, does this "suicide bubble" mechanic really exist in the form you all are describing? I didn't notice it and wasn't aware, but if that's really the case, then I propose this as a way to unscrew it:

Make the damage counter tick towards 0 over time constantly, so the damage received more reflects how much damage you've taken RECENTLY.

Actually Valkyr has always had the suicide bubble but it used to be affected by range which most valkyrs used a max narrowmined and no range. now its not affected by range and is alot more potent.

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Hysteria should have been a damage reduction from the get-go, fairly strong damage reduction but never an immortality abilty.

I've played Valkyr for like 2 hours, it's a boring frame with the most lame melee moveset giving you zero control unless you stop to change her direction before continuing to attack, this is just terrible.

Her aoe stun(not used it much, but it should be a decent stun if Valkyr isn't immortal atleast) should help with Valkyr not being immune during Hysteria.

Fix her attacks so you can control her, give her a tad bit more range.

This isn't Valkyr only related but it's annoying on Valkyr aswell: 

Finishers need their own button, at very least an option to use another button for them so you don't accidently finishing move(yourself to death as most frames) to kill a lvl 2 critter you'd have killed in one hit even if you didn't have any mods in your Bo Mk-1. 

Spin attack could also use it's own button, I know a few people who have made a macro to spin attack reliably and not get arm cramps while playing Valkyr.  

The reason spin attack on Valkyr is the mention here is because most of her other attacks are just bad compared to spin attack, buff the non-spin attacks please.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Kurayami_No_Yenshi said:

Actually Valkyr has always had the suicide bubble but it used to be affected by range which most valkyrs used a max narrowmined and no range. now its not affected by range and is alot more potent.

The way I see this is as follows: you need to make choices for each and every frame. Some attributes need to be maximized and others minimized for different abilities. Valkyr's Hysteria has been an exception because you could maximize all four of them in great numbers (mathematically speaking +str +dur +eff -range). All they have done now is disallowed the anomaly for this one ability and nerfed it slightly to match other melee frames' capabilities. 

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My build still works perfectly fine after the update, only difference is I really have to pay attention to my energy now and I have to cast Hysteria more often. I did manage to make it 60 minutes in T3 solo after all, no consumables. So, if an unfamiliar Valkyr player like me can do that, someone who never uses her, then everyone else should be fine. But I should mention, I did use Zenurik with her.

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I used Hysteria in short-bursts for self-heals & reviving allies in long survival runs - Standby for testing, how this change affects that particular use.

Honestly, I still think they should remove the complete invulnerability. Make it status-invulnerability, like the knockdowns etc, keep the life-steal, keep the dmg-buffs and let people use their own melee weapon. Potentially do give armor-bonus, but that might overlap with Warcry.

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I'm a bit upset that Valkyr was nerfed when she's completely overshadowed in almost all scenarios by Inaros. He can tank through everything and he doesn't have to worry about nullifiers or energy-hate enemies. Usually I just see no reason to play Valkyr. I used her for Rathoom because her slide attack was an efficient way to kill the ridiculous enemies, but other than ridiculous scenarios where there has been a mistake in game tuning she's not particularly useful.

Nerfs like this are particularly disappointing because it's obviously meant to appease the nerf crowd without even caring if Valkyr has any strong use cases. She doesn't really. Being the safeguard against poorly tuned events isn't gonna get her played very much, though I do appreciate having her for when that happens.

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