Excalibur Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[nopesayer]

i am fine with EB waves damage diminishing after passing through enemies, but plz revert its distance fall-off nerf. i really enjoyed crushing enemies with EB waves too dangerous to close the gap (e.g. lv 100 bombard or toxic ancient) and never felt like a turret because i usually keep moving to stay alive especially facing high level enemies. plz keep EB waves epic.

really miss the days when i pretended i was like King Arthuria Pendragon summoning the Sword of Promised Victory:

 

[JalakBali]

I was thinking the other day on how to "fix" Exalted Blade.

First, let's state the goal:

1. Exalted Blade should remain as powerful as before. No one is complaining about its DPS.

2. Exalted Blade should be used in an active fight. So the problem is when it is used as a turret, especially a turret behind terrain.

 

With the current "fix", we got:

1. EB DPS, due to damage fall off and pass through penalty, for fighting groups and as a turret, takes a nose dive.

2. Body Count and Blood Rush might help with the DPS but it would not fix the problem with being a turret.

 

So, to make an Exaclibur NOT a turret, there needs to be an incentive to engage the enemy openly. How to detect Excalibur is fighting "openly"? Simple: if he damages an enemy with his melee (and not the wave), then he is fighting openly. You might think I'm trying to get rid of EB's waves. I'm not. EB wave is the bread of butter of Excalibur's ult. Without it, he's just Wukong or Valkyr without any tanking powers. So the waves MUST stay but Excalibur must be get incentive in going up and personal.

 

I propose my solution: COMBO METER FOR EXALTED BLADE, COUNTED BY MELEE HITS.

Here's how it works:

1. Exalted Blade gets a combo meter with a maximum of 10 (icon on UI would show next to his name and health, just like Volt's passive).

2. Every hit from EB's melee would up the count by 1. EB wave does not count for this.

3. Every 1 level of combo meter gives a bonus to EB's damage (melee and wave) by 10%, to a maximum of 100% bonus damage.

4. Every 4 seconds, 1 level of combo meter goes down, making a full combo meter disappear when not hitting any enemy with EB melee after 40 seconds.

5. Duration and bonus of special EB combo meter is not affected by mods.

 

How would this system affect gameplay? With this, the longer Excalibur using EB at an enemy within melee range, the stronger EB gets. He could still, technically, turn around and be a turret, but the DPS only lasts for 40 seconds at most, as it goes down 10% every 4 seconds. Excalibur would be a very strong DPS frame if the player is playing it more melee style.

And last but not least:

 

6. REMOVE SLIDE BLIND! Jeez. It's just an energy trap for newbies at this point. Just change it into a regular slide attack or something. Or change it back into not requiring energy.

[ReshyShira]

The problem is that Excal has all the survivability of wet tissue paper, at higher levels I have to have Frost put him in a snow globe to survive.  That's where the turret aspect comes in.  If excal was made more survivable, then expect him to be used less as a turret.

 

Excal being a turret is a symptom of the problem, not the problem in itself.

 

At high levels the game is all about avoiding damage, if Excal was able to take hits then he'd no longer need to be a turret.

[JalakBali]

39 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

The problem is that Excal has all the survivability of wet tissue paper, at higher levels I have to have Frost put him in a snow globe to survive.  That's where the turret aspect comes in.  If excal was made more survivable, then expect him to be used less as a turret.

 

Excal being a turret is a symptom of the problem, not the problem in itself.

 

At high levels the game is all about avoiding damage, if Excal was able to take hits then he'd no longer need to be a turret.

He'd still be a turret even if he has a "boost armor by 10,000%" power because being a turret behind terrain is safest of all. I agree on Excal not having enough survivability though. But that's separate from being a turret. By "turret", DE and most players meant was "hiding behind terrain, crouching, and mashing attack button". Which is why DE was nerfing the range and pass-through damage of EB. Dunno why they had to nerf Slide Blind because that's one power that would make Excal players NOT be a turret.

[YuriLowell10]

Suggestion:

Pls remove the energy drain on the slide attack when using EB because sometime slide attack is used for increase the movement to get away from enemy.

I get the idea of closing in battle using excalibur since his name did come from the legendary sword, Excalibur and should be a melee warframe, so can't the ult be reworked to be like a increase multiplying dmg on personal equiped melee weapon with the same effect to be summon as a glowing sword but without the slashing wave or the slashing wave can be used only if channeling. Also maybe add some more combo would be better for EB since if the wave slashing is no more.

Passive for Excalibur can't it be like have a better recovery rate than any other warframe since he is a swordman warframe, or having the ability to press roll to get up instantly as this will make battling multiple heavy gunner and bombard in survival more survival, or the passive can be having chance of deflecting projectile to enemy when blocking which have a chance to stagger them.

Edited June 7, 2016 by YuriLowell10

[MichaelSD]

I agree with the statements above that the Excalibur is not a close combat frame as it lacks armour to reach and kill his enemies. If you want to make him a sword fighter hive him some form of damage mitigation.

Regarding the turret, I was vocal from the very first day in saying that the turret is bad. Remove it.

[ThatOddDeer]

On 6/7/2016 at 4:20 AM, YuriLowell10 said:

 

Passive for Excalibur can't it be like have a better recovery rate than any other warframe since he is a swordman warframe, or having the ability to press roll to get up instantly as this will make battling multiple heavy gunner and bombard in survival more survival, or the passive can be having chance of deflecting projectile to enemy when blocking which have a chance to stagger them.

that isn't happening as that's quite literally valkyr's passive ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Edited June 8, 2016 by ThatOddDeer
humor

[Guest]

DE doesn't want us to use EB as a turret and wants us in melee range.

DE doesn't care about Excalibur's squishiness at all.

See the problem here?

If you want use to really use EB as a legitimate sword, you would've at least buffed Excalibur in terms of survivability, such as a buff for Radial Blind. Remove LoS limitations from radial blind within a 15m radius that doesn't scale with range mods, so we would actually have the incentive to get up close and slaughter our enemies before having them shoot us to death. Hell, I'd sacrifice the stupid finisher for the LoS removal, since I could literally do that with other methods such as stance mods anyway, which offers a higher multiplier that does not consume any energy. I'm not even asking you to buff it to Valkyr levels of armor, because a single radial blind would be enough to keep me alive if the LoS doesn't bug out, but unfortunately it does.

On 6/7/2016 at 4:01 PM, JalakBali said:

But that's separate from being a turret. By "turret", DE and most players meant was "hiding behind terrain, crouching, and mashing attack button"

So, you've got anything better than that? With the slide blind, which is already pretty much garbage, costing energy per execution, and RB being under LoS at the same time? Go out there risking exposure and die in seconds? Not exactly the best tactic. 

Hiding behind a cover and shooting = Good tactician, skilled player

Hiding behind a cover and slashing waves = u wot m8 hax cheatah stupid cheese whoosh whoosh dumb aimbot garbage git gud

Perfect logic.

[(PSN)Faustx19]

Ok,the turret is ok with weapons but not EB?I never play excalibur as a turret but often other frames with guns,also i have no problem if others use him as a turret.I do not get the point of that "Problem" everyone has with that.So,take the soma,boltor or whatever and stand in a corner like a turret is ok but if excalibur do so its not?Weird world.

[(PSN)Faustx19]

So Vaubans can stand at a save spot, soak all enemys or hold em in a net and shoot em is ok,frost snowglobe ,stand in it shoot and freeze is ok,mesa IS a turret,nova slows all and shoot em from a save spot and and and.Every frame i offten see play turret style.BUT if some think they can do this with an excalibur oh my god,that has to be nerfd??REALY?He can not keep up with ash and killing is the only thing excalibur can do.If you mod full on EB  all other abilitys are useless due to range loss.No supporter,no defender,no healer or tactican.Just a damage dealer.And i was fine with that.To nerf that was more than wrong.To get excalibur at the point he was as the exalted blade was realeased and let the melee augment mods do not work seems the only true result for me here.But i fear that never happens.To many players cry if other frames do more kills and they write it here.The players that have no problems do not write here so DE only get text over problems gamers have with excalibur .That is a human nature and never changes.

[JalakBali]

16 hours ago, Madho said:

So, you've got anything better than that? With the slide blind, which is already pretty much garbage, costing energy per execution, and RB being under LoS at the same time? Go out there risking exposure and die in seconds? Not exactly the best tactic. 

Actually, yeah, I do. Which I elaborated in a previous post in this thread where using EB at close range would be "high risk high reward". And I don't know if you mistook me for another person but I'm a proponent of turning back Slide Blind into what it was before the nerf, because Excalibur lacks survival power in close range.

16 hours ago, Madho said:

Hiding behind a cover and shooting = Good tactician, skilled player

Hiding behind a cover and slashing waves = u wot m8 hax cheatah stupid cheese whoosh whoosh dumb aimbot garbage git gud

Perfect logic.

You do know that placing yourself behind a cover and popping up to shoot while minimizing your chance of getting hit is very, very different than "completely behind cover where the enemies has no chance of hitting you", right?  You do know that Excalibur's slash waves doesn't need any clear line of sight to hit, right?  He could sit inside a completely closed box and still kill everything around it.

[(PSN)Faustx19]

Yes,like all my guns.There are mods allowing you to shoot trough the surroundings and with "you" i mean everyone involved , not the one above looks like he think i mean him personaly.So,it happens many time i enter a room full of enemys and walk back shoot them trough the closed door.Or the doors with two butons to open,i shoot with my telos boltor the enemys behind before open it.Its easy cause bullets fly faster and let you know a hit sooner as slow flying waves.Thats all ok for excalibur haters it seems,they can do the stuff but excalibur not.You may not know what i can do with my mara detron behind full cover.Guess what?Its far more powerfull as excalibur's EB! So, still the abilitysof most frames work on full cover .Frost snowfall , nova , ember , rhino , and and.So they do not need to aim and smash button like excalibur .Its easier.I do not name the killing frame here allways just press one button to kill dozens in invincible mode.But seems thats ok for the most as long as it is not excalibur .Nonsense.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

Actually, yeah, I do. Which I elaborated in a previous post in this thread where using EB at close range would be "high risk high reward".

Which isn't exactly the case because the risk here (OHKO enemies) is inversely proportional to the reward (EB damage fails at scaling). Why do I need EB when I have naramon and a red-crit melee that can avoid my exposure yet still score loads of kills?

 

37 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

And I don't know if you mistook me for another person but I'm a proponent of turning back Slide Blind into what it was before the nerf, because Excalibur lacks survival power in close range.

Was simply assuming the blind + EB combo because that's what most people are doing here. 

37 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

You do know that placing yourself behind a cover and popping up to shoot while minimizing your chance of getting hit is very, very different than "completely behind cover where the enemies has no chance of hitting you", right? 

First of all, enemy AI can find a clear line of fire to damage you no matter where you're hiding unless you're doing that on a really high ledge, about 50m away from them.

 

37 minutes ago, JalakBali said:

You do know that Excalibur's slash waves doesn't need any clear line of sight to hit, right?  He could sit inside a completely closed box and still kill everything around it.

Second, I don't really think that such cover exists. The most common "cover" is a doorway or a box, which will be rendered garbage as EB's energy waves falls off and enemies managed to get through the door and shoot you to death. Or, if the map glitches out, there's a chance for you to be in a completely closed cover. Everything in 40m dies, sure, but at an insanely slow rate while everyone's nuking stuff with Tonkor.

Moreover, given the really bad damage EB waves have, it's really impractical to even use Excalibur over other frames in the first place. Want more AoE? Nova and Saryn can help you with that. More melee damage? Valkyr with Hysteria can outperform EB by a significant margin. I'm pretty sure even Mag and Volt are crushing Excalibur in terms of AoE damage right now. Hide in a box all you want, while you're rendered useless when enemies are dying in seconds all around you just because there's an Ash p on the team.

If you're not on the move, you're not contributing. If you run around hunting enemies, you'll die. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by Guest

[(PSN)Faustx19]

Solution: Excalibur gets a normal slide attack , to trigger the smal blind with energy cost just slide and block.Thats the way it is tactical.

[(PSN)Faustx19]

Thanks madho,you say what im trying.My English is not so well.  Anyway,to throw a wave of pure energy from the holy blade frame and deal lesser damage as all my weapons leaving the enemy unimpressed can not be what DE and every experienced warframe player want for Excalibur.I do not want to belive that.

[JalakBali]

19 hours ago, Madho said:

Which isn't exactly the case because the risk here (OHKO enemies) is inversely proportional to the reward (EB damage fails at scaling). Why do I need EB when I have naramon and a red-crit melee that can avoid my exposure yet still score loads of kills?

 

Was simply assuming the blind + EB combo because that's what most people are doing here. 

First of all, enemy AI can find a clear line of fire to damage you no matter where you're hiding unless you're doing that on a really high ledge, about 50m away from them.

 

Second, I don't really think that such cover exists. The most common "cover" is a doorway or a box, which will be rendered garbage as EB's energy waves falls off and enemies managed to get through the door and shoot you to death. Or, if the map glitches out, there's a chance for you to be in a completely closed cover. Everything in 40m dies, sure, but at an insanely slow rate while everyone's nuking stuff with Tonkor.

Moreover, given the really bad damage EB waves have, it's really impractical to even use Excalibur over other frames in the first place. Want more AoE? Nova and Saryn can help you with that. More melee damage? Valkyr with Hysteria can outperform EB by a significant margin. I'm pretty sure even Mag and Volt are crushing Excalibur in terms of AoE damage right now. Hide in a box all you want, while you're rendered useless when enemies are dying in seconds all around you just because there's an Ash p on the team.

If you're not on the move, you're not contributing. If you run around hunting enemies, you'll die. 

I don't get what you're trying to say here other than "Leave Excalibur as a garbage frame whose only worth is hiding behind terrain so he cannot get damaged". Because that is not constructive and trying to keep his ability to shoot waves from behind terrain is to keep him in that role. You want him to be more survivable or more damage? The solution is not "let him hide behind a box". Everyone else who don't want Excalibur to go back but still be a strong frame is trying to find a solution to buff him while he is on the move.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, JalakBali said:

I don't get what you're trying to say here other than "Leave Excalibur as a garbage frame whose only worth is hiding behind terrain so he cannot get damaged".

I don't bash things because I want people to believe it's garbage. I bash things to show the truth they are facing.

 

4 hours ago, JalakBali said:

The solution is not "let him hide behind a box"

Which is why I've already proposed a limited LoS removal several posts earlier.

[(PSN)Faustx19]

There are enough tanks,a damage dealer is what i want.But a damage dealer that does damage seems to be a problem.So we have excalibur,a useless äh,damage dealer .(must laugh and cry at the same time as i call excalibur a damage dealer ) First of all it is not fair to nerf him , ruin my excalibur mod farm level hard work due to the fact some gamers play him in a way others do not want them to.So,to prevent further nervs,how should i play all the frames?How shoul i use them?Better not play them to good to give others no reason to cry in the forum to prevent nerfs?Most here do not get the point.We can not find a solution cause excalibur was a fine , well balanced frame before the crying and reaced nerfs.To bring him back as whatever usefull just let haters call for a nerf.Think of it , the older warframe players know it was all fine as warframe was still not so popular,now, with this big community comes more haters.So excalibur is a phenomena , new players can do much with him cause he needs rare frame and melee mods.So new players seen play excalibur are rare.The older experienced warframe players put love and passion in,mod and play excalibur to his limits.So most excalibur's seen are realy good once.That fact counts for excalibur more than any other frame.So he looks to the community as stronger.In reality he was not the strongest and the nerfs wasn't necessary . Tho think of it let me guess its not DE's fault,they do just listen to the community .A solution would be to leave the frame ballancing to DE.But new haters join the community every day.So excalibur and others allready get nerf killed,i fear many frames will share that destiny in the near future.

[(PSN)SPdub]

One thing i have to say. the spin attack blind in my opinion was a bonus to a melee fundamental move. Now it is a penalty. The spin attack is used (by me) for much more than the blind.  My pow range is so low on my main build i have to be right on top of the enemy for it to take affect anyway. My point is upping the power cost on a basic melee move used all the time is a penalty. I would say remove it. Or give the player the choice to activate or deactivate it. Kind of like a focus ability. But in a all reality i would rather not have the spin-blind with this penalty. I would rather make a choice to use my ability radial blind at full pow cost. rather than everytime i choose to spin attack have my pow hit for that much. 

Is it just me, or do you guys use the spin attack in EB for more than the blind?

[CryvernX]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)SPdub said:

One thing i have to say. the spin attack blind in my opinion was a bonus to a melee fundamental move. Now it is a penalty. The spin attack is used (by me) for much more than the blind.  My pow range is so low on my main build i have to be right on top of the enemy for it to take affect anyway. My point is upping the power cost on a basic melee move used all the time is a penalty. I would say remove it. Or give the player the choice to activate or deactivate it. Kind of like a focus ability. But in a all reality i would rather not have the spin-blind with this penalty. I would rather make a choice to use my ability radial blind at full pow cost. rather than everytime i choose to spin attack have my pow hit for that much. 

Is it just me, or do you guys use the spin attack in EB for more than the blind?

the blind is needed for high lvl content, its what gives him enough damage to kill stuff without finishers. those who dont want the spin blind simply dont play excal on endurance missions. dont take the blind out just rebalance the cost or make it actually worth 1/2 cost of radial blind

[(PSN)SPdub]

19 minutes ago, CryvernX said:

the blind is needed for high lvl content, its what gives him enough damage to kill stuff without finishers. those who dont want the spin blind simply dont play excal on endurance missions. dont take the blind out just rebalance the cost or make it actually worth 1/2 cost of radial blind

I agree with you you about a balance or making it worth the cost.

I do play long enough to where blind is needed. but what im saying is set 50% power cost is too high. For twice the amount i get a far more effective blind. Which is a crappy choice to have to make. But everytime a spin blind is used.... it adds up. 

I have 6 formas on my excal. Was going to do a seventh, but hey.......

[SamuraiPizza]

Excal being a turret is the result of two things:

1) The symptom of a larger problem, two of parts of which are enemy scaling/mob tactics, and his somewhat low survivability (although the lower survivability I can personally live with)

2) With Exalted Blade, DE gave him a GUN instead of a blade. Now the second is DE's own fault and while the bladewave nerf (which is JUSTIFIED, just to be abundantly clear) addresses that, the slide blind cost is senseless and counterproductive for several reasons:

1.  I want the slide attack and don't care about the blind.
2. You attach the blind to the attack and charge a price for it that I do not want to pay.  
3. The slide blind is not even tactically deployable, like a channelled spin attack or something.
4. It was an EXTREMELY effective way of getting into melee range. Not anymore I guess. 
5. It's hilariously ineffective, contrary to the opinion of someone I debated this with on this thread earlier. Popping a regular radial blind opens up enemies to finishers and that alone makes the slide blind a laughable little party trick at best. Sure it might make things easier by reducing TTK at level 200, but 99% of the playerbase does not come anywhere close (I know I'll never do it). And even at those levels a regular blind is still WAY better

 

 

People are simply going adapt their playstyle to NOT use the spin attack anymore. The spin attack will suffer the same fate as radial javelin. 

 

I'm not optimistic about this ridiculous change being reverted, but I'll still leave this here. Unless this thread makes as much noise as the trinity thread (which I don't see happening).   

 

Oh well.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Legion216
Edited for readability

[(PSN)Faustx19]

Legion216, im full with you.To force players not to play as a turret and at the same time add cost to slide attacks is counterproductive .

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

I can see why the changes to Excalibro were made and for the most part, I am fine with them.

The adding of an energy cost to the radial blind-spin that happens while using EB is the issue I hold.

Either remove it completely or increase its radius of effect to match the energy cost.

 

As far as the energy waves, I can tolerate the fall-off idea. 

In terms of changing the ability to be more melee capable,

the EB sword should grow (incrementally stretch) as it's swung to have a greater range (and maybe damage)

at it's strike points and then shrink back down to regular size after the swing has concluded.

 

Also, the energy waves should have their infinite travel distance and no damage fall-off return but only

be use-able when channelling while EB is active.

[(PSN)Faustx19]

Thats a good point.I had no problem with the sword design as it had the range.Now it feels like a short saber , not a sword for the swordmaster frame. I wrote befor the idea if  excalibur slides and block while EB is active it triggers the smal blind with energy cost,attck while slide is just a slide attack without blind. The fall of damage needs more damage at short range, otherwise i have no reason to use EB cause all my guns deal far more damage at far more range and speed.Excalibur is my favorite frame and i play rhino , deal far more damage with telos boltor or sancti tigris and no defence problems.That does not feel good.