Excalibur Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Xadrezian]

If you can already cast Radial Blind and Radial Javelin, you don't need another ability that cast it. The noise it makes when cast is annoying AF, now it uses extra energy. It needs to be removed.

[mayhemzen]

1 hour ago, matto said:

I am not a EB Excal except when rushing solo a few missions. Or when things get too crazy. But, my 2 cents, EB is kind of broken.

It is not about nerfing the range with puncture and damage decreasing with distance, it's more like... we need something else. At 10m I couldn't one slash a Corrupted Crewman lvl 30 after rework. The concept behind EB was : keep enemies at distance. Now, you really need to get closer to the mobs and that's when you see the major flaw of Excal : he gets really squishy at close range if not blinding everything. So we're back to the blind everything playstyle now. Soon we'll see threads saying that RB is OP and need to change... Just kidding.

Anyway, the real way to make Excalibur shines has always been Radial Blind, and it makes even more sense now. EB is weak after 15-20m, the energy drain for the spin attack is kind of too much for such a short range. This mini Radial Blind needs to go, we need a real spin attack like all melee should have.

The new range nerf makes him a close melee frame, but again he is not a tank, doesn't have enough armor or enough speed, health or anything that would makes him a close fighter. He is caught in the middle and you need to either rework his stats to make him a real close melee fighter (increase armor a bit and health), or rework entirely EB into something else that would suit his "scout" role.

My guess ? You should get rid of the whole distance melee concept (no more flying slashes) and makes it so when activating EB you get a viable armor buff as long as a speed buff (not melee speed but movement speed). And maybe something like a double Skana. Go fast, strike fast.

Just my opinion here.

the mini blind needs to stay, as an alternate, without the energy drain.  exalted blade is a real spin attack that does AOE damage and has a nice touch of mobility and a little flash to stun enemies, who can easily kill excal otherwise.  it also doesn't trigger stealth attacks which is a nice alternative to the main blind, that allows excal to keep moving like the ninja he is supposed to be without getting caught up in unnecessarily long finishing moves while getting shot at by crowds.

[Xadrezian]

I don't understand why people have a problem with casting Radial Blind and then using Exalted Blade. I find it completely pointless now that it uses extra energy. 

[mayhemzen]

1 hour ago, Talevon said:

The main problem I have with Excalibur's change is that DE has branded it as a "rework".  This isn't a "rework", this is a straight nerf and DE knows it.  I would appreciate if they would only use the term "rework" when they ACTUALLY rework something, rather than just nerf it.

Players are going to naturally gravitate toward the most powerful and/or efficient ways of playing the game, and instead of giving the players more variety you just nerf what's popular and fun to use.  THIS IS NOT OKAY, and it's an idea that I believe needs to cease immediately.

To be more clear: a "rework" should have consisted of reviewing ALL of Excalibur's abilities and determining why it is that everyone seems to build for Exalted Blade and neglect the others.  Hell, I'll even tell you why that is for free: it's not because Exalted Blade was overpowered, it's because his other abilities aren't worth building for.  That's what really needs to be addressed.  In my opinion, Exalted Blade was perfectly fine.  I would, however, like to be able to use Excalibur for more than just that - yesterday's patch has done absolutely nothing to fix that problem.

Now, with that being said, since the "rework" is here, just go ahead and completely remove the built in Radial Blind on Exalted Blade.  It was already useless before, you successfully made it even worse - it's MORE than useless now and I don't want to cost myself energy by accidentally using it.

I think Exalted Blade's damage dropoff should start around 10m or so and decrease from that point out to its end 40m distance and final determined damage value.  I believe that would be fair, and then we would at least have consistent damage close to us.  After all, you're wanting to promote shorter range use of Exalted Blade.

Additionally, in the interest of consistent damage, remove the damage reduction on punch through for Exalted Blade - the damage dropoff over range was already enough.

the mini blind is awesome, you just have to know how to use it. it should stay without the energy cost.  while i feel the targeting on slash dash could use a tweak, its still a great skill. the only skill that really is weak is radial javelin, and i think allowing the melee combo counter affect it and melee mods, then it will be fine.

[mayhemzen]

26 minutes ago, Xadrezian said:

IF they were to remove Exalted Blade’s built-in Radial Blind it would be much better. We don't need two of the same ability.

I am trying to rebuild him with out having to forma again but so far I can only come up with a balance build which feels weak AF on him

Steel Charge, Cunning Drift, Redirection, Rage, Streamline, Intensify, Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, Stretch, Vitality

 I wish we had Primed Vigor already. 

you don't have two of the same ability, you have 2 similar abilities.  the mini blind did not trigger finishers and was obviously smaller and shorter. which was perfect for moving into groups of enemies, briefly stunning them with just enough time to take them down or get out.  the mini blind needs to stay, the extra energy cost needs to go.

[(PSN)kobetroy]

 Yea remove the energy cost from the mini blind, an give excal more armor an it should be good. The questions is how much armor 450? 750? 1450? And a speed buff Wouldn't hurt excal is one slow ninja

Edited May 28, 2016 by (PS4)kobetroy

[mayhemzen]

13 hours ago, Xylyssa said:

His mini RB was a freebie that combined with the mobility of the spin attack you could spam it in a wide area with no drawbacks. It needed a cost or to be removed entirely from EB.

it wasnt free it was built into the cost of energy blade.  it works different than RB, and theat was also good.  it was a get in get out ability, which fits excals theme and skill set perfectly.  the blind needs to stay.  the extra energy cost has to go.

[PrototypeXD]

I hate the fact that i cant use spin attacks anymore cause its just pointless to use a nerfed radial blind

Either remove the energy cost or remove the radial blind 

[Obiyer]

As a new player, until last night I only played as Excalibur for about 200 hours, I didn't even notice the EB changes. The slide attack change did hit me though, it was my fault however, I wasn't paying attention that it was taking off energy.

I've only really played Excal, except for Ember last night, so I can't say how he relates to the other frames. But I've noticed, that he's versatile, such as, he can handle pretty much anything, not as well as the frames that are designed for a specific task, such as Ember and infested. Maybe, the versatility comes at a cost? 

Excal can work short range in my experience, but only against certain enemies. Most grunts are okay, but anything with a flame thrower has to be taken out at range or else Excal will melt. I hit a wall at Phobos that has stopped me from progressing on the starchart, and a lot of it was survivability. I was told that at higher difficulties I would have to rely on the skills of the frame and not defensive mods. 

My worry for new players is that the blind is not intuitive. I remember starting out and wanting to do a spin attack and I blind accidentally. This isn't that big a deal with some practice, but new players can't access the simulacrum right away. That's why even though, Exalted blade has its own stance, it's hard to practice it. Such as you want to keep throwing out EB's, but you enter into a combo that slows your attack speed.

EDIT:

Also, it was rare for me to use EB close range unless it was infested. I tend to use it as a way to attack enemies far away that were too dangerous to attack up close, such as extremus units. I even used it to attack flying drones, and mutalists because with melee out I had no convenient way of taking them out. I could use a jump attack but that all depended on the weapon. This is all with the melee weapon being drawn so there was no way to take out flying units. It's why I consider Grineer, aside from the flame throwers and bombards, the easiest faction to fight against because they lack flying units so I could have my melee weapon out all the time. 

Furthermore, being a "swordsman" as Excalibur is sorta just ornamental lacking in any real transition into the game. I had a better performance with a Lecta than with any sword due to the range. I haven't played enough to give advice on how to change him, but all I can do is relate how these changes affect how I play Excal. At this point, there is absolutely no change in how I will play him, only that I will deal less damage with EB at range and be more careful not to do the radial blind slide. I never really used it to begin with because the range was so short. Such as, if I was going to slide at that short of range, what the heck was I doing blinding? That and I had EB, why, would I even want to get close to the enemy? It was safer to attack from a distance and compensate for enemy movement. If I was sliding towards the enemy, I would have my melee out and EB deactivated. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Obiyer
More thoughts

[Vazkra]

I have played plenty of Excal I use a balanced build between range duration good power strength and maxed eff for eb, the slide blind does not bother me as I never use it unless in very very rare scenarios for the most part I use radial blind because mine lasts a good while and it has far more range. I didn't really notice the changes till I did a pluto excavation enemies were 80 something so I was sat in a frost bubble firing waves out to enemies that didn't look that far away to be honest and my eb hit like a wet noodle so I had to run in risking death pop a radial blind then kill everything, if I have to be so close to make effective use of it's damage I could just whip out my nikana prime and do more damage anyway.

But regardless I guess I'll just keep spamming radial blind instead. I genuinely thought the point of eb was to give excal some range I mean his armor ain't going to save you and he has low hp for a melee frame (Looking at you Ash)

But he hasn't been crushed adapt and move on. Viva La Radial Blind

[ordinance]

Seriously DE, 

I've not written many posts about nerfs and i absolutely find this energy drain on the mini RB while EB is active seriously silly.
I have no qualms about giving a damage drop on the range as the beam travels. 
But draining energy while using an "innate" ability while on EB was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
I mean seriously? I felt so restricted trying to play excal without sliding and i had to consciously play him dashing in and out of creeps while not attempting to slide-attack just i could manage my energy pool. If your play testers haven't told you how irritating it is not to slide attack. I'm telling you now it is seriously very very irritating.

I'm sorry, this is broken.. this isn't a rework. Forget the pleasantries and flowery language of "rework and balance". this is anything but a "rework" but a downright in your face nerf...

Seriously. I'm really disappointed with this... adding a drain to an "in-nate" skill is pointless. You could do much better than this DE.
You have yourself one disappointed and upset founder.

TLDR

Either remove the drain cost totally, or just remove the radial blind completely.. seriously.
 

[Guest]

In my opinion, I think the changes are great.

Exalted Blade was WAY too overpowered; I could just press 4, aim, and win... Granted I can still do that now, but with less effective proximity of course.

This change also works logically: Unlike solid bullets that are small and thus have less air resistance; energy waves suffer from being wide and spread out similar to shotgun blasts, and so it makes sense for the "blade waves" to lose energy as they further in distance.

As for the Radial Blind cost, I can see why the energy cost was added, but at this point I'd prefer if RB was just removed from EB. EB's RB has always been sort of pointless for me to use as its range with my setup is way too short to be effective. I can often, just as easily, press 2 if I'm ever in need of RB anyway.

But that's just me.

[(PSN)Galbrant]

Welp! Looks like I'm benching Excalibur, 8 Forma  and countless fusion cores down the drain. Okay I can understand the waves damage falling off in the further it goes so I'll give you guys that, but as I am hearing the damage falls off too fast and Excalibur just does not have the defenses to withstand the punishment when getting closer to higher level enemies.  So either give him back his old Exalted defenses(Okay maybe not all of his old defenses) or cause the Waves decline in damage a lot slower.  Just get rid of Radial Blind in Exalted Blade if you're gonna make us use energy in a stance then might as well force us to use the actual Radial Blind any way. While you at it do something with Radial Javelin and Slash Dash I have no reason to use them even with the the straight up nerfs. Actually just drop Radial Javelin altogether because it's useless when Radial Blind is infinitely better.  I have no idea what to replace it with unfortunately. 

 

Oh instead of implementing radial blind in Exalted Blade. When we do the slide attack just make Excaliber do a giant wave attack to offset the negatives when he really needs to hit a distance enemy or a very important VIP Capture target. After thinking about it some maybe make the Javelin pin their targets like Nezha but the enemy can still hit/shoot back.

I'll admit I am extremely salty about these changes to excalibur. In my opinion he was fine before his 1st and 3rd ability just needed to do something useful they probably won't matter anyway with Exalted Blade anyway. If anything it's the mods fault on why Warframes are so goddamn strong. Nerf the mods not the Warframe! Especially the corrupted mods Those are the real culprits. Excalibur Exalted Blade lasted so long because of Narrow Minded and Primed Continuity. Before that it was Streamline Whatever the Energy Efficiency corrupted mod name was. 

Bah.. I'm gonna go skin some puppies in WoW. Yes I am that salty...

 

EDIT: Another alternative change idea to Radial Javelin. Maybe make it a AOE pull to Excalibur. Those waves doing too less damage? Then make the move to pull everyone to Excalibur so he can melee them to death.

Edited May 28, 2016 by (PS4)Galbrant

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

Excal need more survivability now that he has to get up and close with enemies. Perhaps bring back his old 100% block from the front while in EB. Or increase his blind range.

[Sytohden]

The blade itself needs a giant buff since the waves do very little damage and we should just remove blind altogether its really upsetting when I accidentally dash attack while using eb now. I feel like invis loki with nikana prime is a far better melee at this point... rip excal

[Obiyer]

I have been thinking deeply about this change. And I have deduced that EB should work exactly like this (53:00 - 1:13): 

https://youtu.be/TXvfiSaf-LM?t=53s

[Vazkra]

Did you guys nerf it's damage secretly aswell? I know it falls off over distance but the night before the "rework" I was pulling solid damage figures upto 80-100 now my damage seems lackluster vs 40-60 of the same enemies at about 5 meters roughly I'm pulling barely 25% of what I was before, my build had not changed bar removing 25% power strength to build duration, I slotted intensify back so I was 5% more strength than before and I cannot match previous damage at all even at point blank range crawling down an ancients throat. I'm going to mess around with mods on my melee to double check but my damage hit the floor and kept on going.

I mean at precisely what range and what % does damage drop? Because it feels as if I'm one step away from the enemy 80% of my damage is gone.

please tell me I'm going crazy and imagining. 

[Xadrezian]

Exalted Blade does not only feel weaker but also looks weaker. It could just be me but, its really unimpressive.

If you are going to make it weaker make it faster or apply the attributes from the acolyte mods to the ability. Same for Valkyr.

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Xadrezian

[LordOfScrugging]

If the whole reason to change excal was to make him more of a swordsman, then you'd need to do alot more than this. firstly and most importantly, either get rid of the mini blind, make it so we can choose to use it or not, or keep it cost free. Secondly, idk what swordsman throws swords (javelins) around willy nilly.

this move should be replaced since it's damage is pretty mediocre anyways and it only assits with the 'draco mentality' something different befitting an actual swordsman would be great. idk maybe have some kinda deflection power where he can reflect % of incoming damage to enemies when blocking and make it a toggle (EB's energy drain would need to be modified so not to be overkill on top of this one)

Remove waves from standard attacks and do something with the combos to encourage less 'E' spam. maybe make it so combos have multipliers and do something with the channeling for exalted weapons. (make it so it doesn't drain energy per hit, but grants additional effects like excal can shoot waves when in 'channeling', valkyr can apply guaranteed bleed procs on hit, wukong can create like 3 clones of killed enemies while channeling) something that would make exalted weapons stand out more instead of them being just strong weapons.

[Xadrezian]

I took fencing for a few years, one of my favorite things to do is Parrying. There is nothing like pulling of a well timed block strike. If Excalibur were given a passive ability, lets say perfect parry or perfect counter, every successful counter recovers energy, that would be great.

The mini RB in Exalted Blade could be replaced by something better or removed completely. It has never helped and is has now become a major problem with the extra energy cost.

 

[Epsik-kun]

I've written a bit too much to post it here.

tl;dr is

The nerf had essentially failed to fix the problem it tried to address, because that problem is fictional. What that nerf actually did was a major hit to Excal's melee potential. I have less reasons to go melee now, compared to what I had previously.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Epsik-kun

[SamuraiPizza]

Everything I want to say has already been said here o this thread. 

I'm posting here to voice my opposition to the cost of the spin attack mini blind. Either remove the cost or remove the mini blind. 

[tekmansam]

I have been playing Excalibur since I started, which admittedly was only a few weeks ago.  I have had a lot of fun with him, but certain aspects didn't suit my playstyle.  I was not fond of how every other Excalibur I saw was nothing more than an EB spam factory.  I was glad to see that EB was nerfed.  Honestly, I rarely used EB because I felt that it was spammy and OP.  I preferred to rely on actual skill with my melee weapon (Galatine).  I have noticed many people complaining about the blind proc on EB spin.  Personally, I have always found it to be a wasted ability.  RB is one of my favorite powers, but I would never go for it on EB, on the few occasions I actually used EB.  I agree with the community consensus that it needs to go.  It was a nice thought, but nobody wants it.  

The nerf on EB's ranged attack was a nice touch.  I think it was a step in the right direction.  Excal should be a melee frame, but should feel different thematically from Valkyr.  Melee is already a dangerous proposition in late game Warframe, so frames that specialize in it should be carefully worked.  Something that many have neglected to take into account is the defensive buffs that EB gives.  Encouraging Excal into melee range more with EB will make those abilities shine a bit more.  EB is designed to function with a crit build, which is fine.  It is also designed to scale with weapon mods--also fine.  It even works with Excal's new passive--obviously fine.  There are a couple flaws in its function, however.  As other's have pointed out, even a power strength build suffers from damage falloff compared to other melee builds, because of certain mods not synergizing with EB.  This could be fixed by looping in those mods, but I think a simpler, more balanced approach is possible.  Here are some things that I would like to see with Excalibur.

• Rework his passive.  Even with the 10% speed/damage buff to long swords, nikana, rapier, I am still not incentivized to not play with my Galatine.  Either include 2 handed swords into his passive in some way, or signifigantly improve the passive to discourage 2 handed swords.  Or, think outside the box, and give him a passive bonus to channeled attacks or something.  Broken War still doesn't beat my Galatine.
• Instead of a complete overwrite of stances, and damage, EB should enhance the qualities of the ordinary melee weapon and use its stance.  It should function more like a second level of channeling, with passive bonuses to damage, crit, speed, etc.  Keep the defensive bonuses, remove the radial blind proc altogether, allow a ranged attack (possibly on a charged attack?), but do not include it as the default swing.  When I pop EB I should feel like I just used Bankai (Bleach.)
• Other than for the use of certain mods like Life Strike (which I am not lucky enough to own), I do not see much point in using Channeling, when I can just pop EB.  I know that the two can be used concurrently, but again, I feel like EB should feel like an extension of channeling and work appropriately with it.  Perhaps allowing secondary affects, such as the ranged attack or blind proc, only when both EB and channeling are active?
• As for the actual projectile attack from EB, I would like to see something more "fierce."  Instead of a constant barrage of ghostly blades, something more forceful, less spammy, and with a knockback/ragdoll/stagger sort of effect would be thematically pleasing.  Think Getsuga Tenshou (Bleach) or Kaze no Kizu (Inuyasha).  Alternatively, a function such as this could be applied as a rework to RJ.  The damage falloff from RJ makes it less viable late game, and outside of Draco farms, it doesn't serve much purpose.  The cost/damage of RJ makes it unappealing outside of an efficiency build, and its damage makes it unappealing outside of a power build.  Its survival aspect is overshadowed by RB in any build.

These are just some vague impressions and ideas of how I feel the "feel" of Excalibur could be improved upon, as well as some notions on balance.  I love Excal, but he seems to be a little lost at the moment.  He may require a fundamental reworking.  These are just my impressions; I'd love to hear what others think of my perspective.

[NecrosPrism]

The dmg of excalibour is high, yes but did DE really had to nerf his 4 that much?

I think the dmg was really high, thats why I understand the nerf on the range, but I think that the fact, that the small blind now costs energy is absolutily stupid. I mean I just wanna do a slide attack for maybe moving faster in the fight and i have to pay energy for this or for just doing an aoe attack?! I really think that this is not good. Maybe you could change it to activating radial blind while having exalted blade on costs half of the energy for some kind of a combo but please not otherlike. And for the dmg nerf: I would do it maybe so that his dmg which is going lost would synergise with the power range, so that the dmg is not completly lost or just dont let the dmg numbers drop so strong, cause its still a beginner frame, which is really often used as the first frame.

I really hope, you DE, will change something at excalibur, cause its not an OP frame, its an beginner frame as well which the low players can help very much.

[_Rue_]

Pre change, Excal was a mid-long range "swordsman". If the goal is to make him more effective at closer range, let's change how the thing works.

1) Consider that warframe is a hoard game, like dynasty warriors. Cap excal blade beam range to 7.5-10 meters, but make it into big wide arcs that radiate from each slash. Make charge attacks create 180* beams that affect anything within 7.5-10 meters.

2) remove the radial blind from the slide slash attack and give him a 360* attack instead that radiates out 7.5-10 meters.

3) rework slash dash so if he is unable to kill something you have the option to slide behind the enemy to start your work

4) give him the ability to block 100% of the damage coming from in front (180*)

5) Make radial blind act like nova's n prime in that it's duration based radiating from the cast point vs range based so we have 1 less stat to manage :)