Excalibur Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[PETI258]

I am not sure about you guys but when I do slide attacks with Excalibur ult I did not done it for the blind at the end.

So I would really appriciate it to have a slide attack without that energy drain.
Also that blind is kind of useless I just rather press 2 and have a bigger area effect on enemies.

[Trekiros]

 

14 hours ago, (PS4)Galbrant said:

EDIT: Another alternative change idea to Radial Javelin. Maybe make it a AOE pull to Excalibur. Those waves doing too less damage? Then make the move to pull everyone to Excalibur so he can melee them to death.

Hey ! That's a really cool idea !

[SamuraiPizza]

Okay so I was just watching Bleach and an idea struck me (and this MAY already have been suggested previously).

Make the blade waves NOT as spammable, but happen only while channeling, or at the end of a specific combo. And give it huge damage. That way it'll be something similar to Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou, one massive, DEVASTATING blade wave that can be used only if you plan for it, for huge damage instead of spamming it around willy nilly. Secondly, the spin-mini-blind energy cost HAS TO GO, that's too much of a downside because as a melee frame I am trying to get in close to the enemy as fast as possible, and the spin attack is the best way to do that. I love the attack itself, but tying it to a blind (that I do not much care for) and penalizing me for trying to get in close to the enemy is absurd. 

I hope these changes will be considered. Thank you. 

[Kendoz]

The damage falloff is just too much in my opinion. Since I'm playing my cal at closer range anyway, I didn't notice that much of a difference up until when the big enemies arrive. You just can't stay that close to enemies as a cali or at least not all the time. I agree that Excalibur should focus more on being in melee range, but taking our ability away to deal with  enemies at bigger range, is a big hit for end game content. I would suggest a different calculation for damage falloff: 

<15m = 100% / 20m = 85% / 25m = 75% and 30m< = 60% 

Or similar without capping us too much. So basically you want to stay as close as possible as a Excalibur but, you're not as punished for retreating, if the situation demands it. 

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Kendoz

[Trekiros]

I don't know if that is possible within the game's engine, but rather than completely removing the blind from the spin attack, because you want to give us the ability to spin attack again, a solution would be to tie the blind to a different input.

My proposal : if you hold the button after a spin attack, it'll go into the blind animation.

That is if you are reaaaaally into keeping the energy cost for it, which as I and many others have said, is pretty counterproductive if you want people to go CQC more.

 

Oh and if you're re-designing that stance, here is another piece of feedback : the charge attack is vastly underwhelming. "Just another wave ?" is what people think when they see it.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Trekiros

[Epsik-kun]

32 minutes ago, Trekiros said:

the charge attack is vastly underwhelming

Excalibur has no charge attack. It's his default 4th combo, he had it forever.

[Knightmare047]

Here's my feedback and suggestions on Excal : 

I personally think that the energy cost on Exalted Blade's slide attack is unnecessary as the radius for the blind is already very small alongside with enemies not being opened for finishers. Or maybe reduce it even more to 1/5, or to about the weapon's channeling cost(5 at default and can be changed with melee channeling mods). Plus, it's one of Exalted Blade's few forms of close-range crowd control attacks without using other abilities due to the lack of slams in the combos.

As for Exalted Blade's damage, I feel that the maximum damage amount that it is reduced from falloff should be capped at a higher amount. About 50%. This should keep the wave's attack power relevant for attacking distant enemies.

Also, I think I should mention on how Exalted Blade with its combos overall feels more of a mid-range melee weapon rather than a close-range melee in the first place because of its sword waves which is also it's main feature. The stance's combos lacks any knockdown resistance moves, dashes, slams, nor hits that open up enemies for finishers like some stances do. The combos simply have Excalibur swiping his blade differently which does different damage, and that's about it. It all feels like the stance is focused on Excalibur launching waves while being mobile due to all of the combos having Excal being able to move freely during any of the combos with no slowdown. The hold E combo does have a knockdown on the final hit, but only when the enemy is hit by the blade itself and not the wave. Also, due to the lack of any tankiness like Valkyr or Wukong make Excalibur difficult to be turned into a close range fighter.

And I would also like to suggest that the combos, instead of just having Excalibur swiping his sword to send waves in a different way, have him send out different kinds of waves in order to give more incentive to use the other combos rather than spamming E. For example, the hold E combo's waves being more powerful and bigger waves with the final wave knocking down enemies(just like how the sword itself does), the pause E combo could have its waves travel much faster and further but are smaller than the average waves, and the RMB+E combo could launch multiple waves instead of 1(about 2-3 waves in some of the hits and the final hit launching 3) that spread out to cover a wider area at the cost of reduced range for each of the waves.

And last but not least, could please we get Radial Javelin to have some kind of rework? Or at least have its damage relevant once damage 3.0 or the enemy scaling rework arrives.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Knightmare047

[Shehriazad]

Things that should happen instead of this lame stuff you just did to him (seriously...you just made him trash-y again)


1: RB during Exalted. Make it a toggle via the RB button while EB is active. Hold down the button to enable RB. This will give you a slide attack RB in its pre-nerf state but slightly raise your per-second cost.

2: When RB is toggled off during Exalted...replace spinning RB with spinning 360° short range wave/nova. (About 2-3 meters) Make it short enough so its not worth spamming it but long enough to enable finishing off a huge group that is sitting in a pile if you are willing to take a risk.

3:Remove Spam attack waves altogether. Simply add a very agile/mobile moveset to the spam attacks that enable you to close huge distances.

4: Add big waves and multi-blade waves to the proper combos of EB. This ensures to give you options to retaliate at snipers or clear a "wall" of enemies every once in a while.

5:Add "sidestepping" to one of the EB combos...basically allow Excalibur to jump from the front to the back of a unit quickly to attack them from behind once, maybe even allow a finisher.


That is all. 

Spam blades are removed, RB during EB is now a choice...and he just turned a whole lot more tactical. Not so sure what's so hard here.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Shehriazad

[gluih]

Radial blind is still way too strong for a 2. I would say make it purely defensive and use radial javeline to amplify damage.

Radial javeline could be the ability that opens up enemies for finishers, reduce enemy armor, give excalibur a damage buff or just make enemies take more damage.

Would be great if normal attack with exalted blade didn't produce waves at all. Instead it could be more like the gunblades where you have to charge the attack or use a specific combo. To compensate make shadow dept mods work with exalted blade.

Also the energy cost on the mini radial blind is really not needed. It was a nice side effect before and if I really wanted the blind I would just use my 2. Now sliding has a downside, which is bad.

[Huone]

The damage falloff I can deal with but the slide-blind energy cost is a terrible idea. Either give him a normal slide attack or remove the energy cost. It was never particularly strong anyway what with the tiny range and duration.

The revision was supposed to stop people from using EB as a gun, but now we need to spend extra energy to close in on enemies quickly.

[Evanescent]

Reiterating self:

Please allow blade to use shadow debt mods. Allow blade to be customized. Allow for new, more varied combo and charge attacks.

Remove energy cost on slide blind, or buff slide blind to be different to RB but more effective in a different way.

Please slightly buff Excalibur's armor and health.

Thanks!

[matto]

My feedback is here, with a suggestion of what I'd like to have as a 4th in the spoiler. I'd like you guys at DE to go further towards the "close fight swordman".

If things are going to simply stay like it is right now, then just get rid of this mini radial blind thing so we get a nice spin attack (with AoE effect maybe, like the wave turning into a circular thing with small range, being the result of the movement and thus not costing extra energy).

Consider buffing Excal's armor when under 4th too if you want us to go closer. Make him immune to slash procs when under 4th (that's what the real Excalibur's scabbard in the Arthurian Mythology was supposed to do, and the frame is kind of the scabbard of the exalted blade). Just a gimmick but sounds cool.

Edited May 30, 2016 by matto

[X_Black_Reaper_X]

A "swordsman" should be like this:

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by EVIL_ANDRES

[Sir.X]

I actually approve of this "Nerf?". Its not really a nerf, it provokes you to get up close and personal as he's supposed to be a "swordsman" type class. I would only have a few suggestions about his changes:

1.The waves from his Exalted Blade should do less damage than his sword.

2. If the Slide-Blind while using Ex-Blade is gonna cost half the energy of Radial blind, then the range should be half of that one too, with half effectiveness.

3. You want him to be more close-quarters, but his armor is kinda meh. If it was increased by a small amount, then yes approved.

[MetalJacket]

Personally I think the nerf was called for but killing Excalibur not only for people like myself that use him as our main but also for all the founders is a little drastic, for one thing I think that if you want Excalibur to be an in your face Swordsman then you need to also look at his Shields, Armour and health to not only make it better but to actually make it an feasable option to go head to head with enemies.

Secondly the wave is necesary I think, because it demonstrates immense power if you look at Anime such as Bleach and many others where sword play is used, but maybe we can give it and alternate effect like the wave would stun or blind the enemy it touches.

Finally the current power usage is very taxing on the frame, especially since my build is dependant lifestrike, that in combination with excalted blade is painfull to say the least.

Edited May 30, 2016 by MetalJacket

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, shadow18715 said:

Its not really a nerf, it provokes you to get up close and personal as he's supposed to be a "swordsman" type class.

No. It doesn't. Just did an MD yesterday. The Excalibur simply decided to slash from afar with EB, turn off EB, and then proceed to turn it back on and keep slashing. It's a pretty useless nerf if you ask me, even more detrimental when DE decides to add the stupid energy cost.

[nerfinator6]

I will only accept this nerf if they remove the absurd energy penalty, even WITHOUT sliding, and bump the damage back to original, I'm hitting way lower numbers, even when I'm right next to the enemy.

Either that or give me something better to farm sentients with.

[MichaelSD]

I absolutely approve this change. The "shooting thingies"  were inappropriate for a blade frame anyway. I think Excalibur is good now, there is a bit more reason to use our Skanas (or other melee weapons) again.

Thank you Devs!

Sorry about those who dislike the change....

Edited May 30, 2016 by MichaelSD

[Dragazer]

My thoughts on these changes from another thread I posted upon further playtesting: 

18 hours ago, Dragazer said:

 

       After seeing the recent changes to Excals ult, I feel that the changes were poorly executed. Its understandable how DE would want to push Excalibur more into the melee range rather than just firing off waves only, but these changes haven't accomplished that. I feel that much more needs to be done than just nerfing in order for Excalibur to truly feel like a true swordsman frame. 

      First off is the change to EBs slide attack blind. I honestly see no logical sense in this nerf being implemented. You want us to engage enemies in close range, but you nerf the few tools we have to do so?

      My suggestion would be is to just revert this change, the slide blind was never broken at all, it has a vastly reduced range and duration compared to the legit RB and cannot prompt finishers, along with the fact that EB is already draining energy, it makes no sense whatsoever to have the slide cost energy too, especially now more than ever when the play style is being shifted to more close range engagements, forcing us to use the slide blind more often.

      After testing out the damage of the waves at various range with many enemies, I believe the damage falloff for the waves was a little too excessive. It kind of reminds of the damage falloff on shotguns pre-buff. 

      My suggestion for this is to cap damage falloff to 50% just like shotguns to at least give the waves some use at longer ranges and in big crowds. 

      Another thing I would like to address is the damage of EB, while you did reduce the damage of the waves at range, you did not compensate it with increased damage at close range. EB is still doing the same dmg b4 in close range which just feels unfair.

      My suggestion for this is, instead of just boosting damage values why not just enable the use of the acolyte mods blood rush and body count? To me, enabling the use of these 2 mods seems like fair compensation to the range damage falloff with the waves. The waves can't increase the combo counter so you still have to engage at close range to make use of these mods. Seeing how the ideal to these revisions was to encourage Excal players to fight in close quarters, these mods will help greatly with that to give players a reason to get up close. And of course, a slight crit chance buff from 15% to 20% would be nice to see as well.

      Some might disagree with me on the above point, but I feel that if you are making the sacrifice to use a dedicated melee frame with a weapon that constantly drains energy, then yes it should be stronger than a melee weapon that can be used by any frame.  

      In terms of defense, seeing how Excal is to be encouraged to engage in close range more, it would be nice to seem some stagger resistance in melee combos (like heavy weapons), and perhaps an increase in the auto-parry's damage reduction (I'm thinking around 85-95% and maybe some status proc resistance?)

      And finally, the last thing I would like to address was the statement that EB overshadows the other 3 abilities. IMO, Slash dash and Radial blind have their own unique uses and are not overshadowed by EB.(Radial blind will always beat slide blind and Slash dash has I-frames+mobility) However Radial Javelin on the other hand is overshadowed by EB, and in fact by all the other abilities. Is this EB's fault? No it isn't, RJ just doesn't have a place in Excal's kit in its current state. It's beaten in terms of damage by SD and EB, and in terms of CC outclassed by RB.

     My suggestion for fixing Radial Javelin would be to remove the 12 target limit it currently has but still keep the LoS. Also to give it a unique use, each enemy hit by RJ will increase melee damage and armor for Excalibur for a set duration kinda like the Furious Javelin augment. The augment can still stay the same, but it'll just amplify the existing effects of the ability kind of like how Surging dash and Radiant Finish only just amplify the already existing stats of their respective abilities.

    I really like the idea of this because it allows Excal to adjust his power in relation to the size of the crowd he is facing. Increasing your power when you need it most    

Alright I guess that's my 2 cents.  

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Dragazer

[ordinance]

1 minute ago, MichaelSD said:

I absolutely approve this change. The "shooting thingies"  were inappropriate for a blade frame anyway. Thank you Devs!

Sorry about those who dislike the change....

Well, if you would like to get technical about "shooting thingies", exalted blade is materalised from energy.
It is not uncommon for such energy based weapons to emit range attacks.
The common feedback within this thread isn't about a blade shooting thingies as understood like a "melee based"
My question would have you tried playing excal again before and after this change? 

I generally disagree with excal being a turret. In high level survivals, defence, and even in sorties... it is difficult to just stand there in one spot thinking mr almighty exalted blade will wipe every single creep out with one hit. My personal play styles was always engaging mobs in CQC rather than standing in one spot. Technically others have already iterated why it is hard to be in one spot from time to time, high level ancient healers.... nullies etc. Excal doesnt have the tankiness of other frames and so i would feel that the damage output justified his lack of armor as a trade off. 

 

TLDR

Most players would be fine with the damage fall off from the crescent beams.. ( perhaps it needs abit of tweaking as suggested to cap the fall off damage)
this is yet gonna be another repeat episode of nerf and buff similar to shotguns.

Most other excal players are in consensus that the additional energy drain on a mini RB while in EB actively drains was uncalled for. 

As a result of the drain cost on a "slide attack" it is really irritating to modify a play style which encourages CQC, infact, DE has now forced me to act like a turret instead of dashing in and out of enemies.. because of the mini RB is too taxing on my already limited energy pool.

Either remove the drain cost totally, or remove the silly mini RB and replace it with a decent slide attack.
 

[Teshin_Dax]

Here is my Feedback and solution .. Excalibur must be a swordsman again!

Btw... any melee is stroger than exalted blade .. any melee with blood rush , Body Count and so on

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by WaRsHooTer666

[MichaelSD]

@ordinance

You won't and can't please everyone, obviously. I do not like the EB implementation, because it replaces the bladed weapon on a frame which is supposed to be a blade weapon using frame. So from my point of view, the less EB is used the better the frame is. It would have been much smarter to enhance the used weapon, than creating a "lightsabre".

I did try before and after the changes, and do think the current implementation is the best until now. In my opinion EB as a power is fundamentally flawed for the reasons above.

@WarsHooTer666

Exactly!

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by MichaelSD

[LustyLost-EN-]

Warframe has always been a kill fast or be killed fast game unless you can tank,and Excalibur falls in the kill fast category which always means he gets killed fast.This nerf makes Excalibur need to close the distance which seems ok until you realize EXCALIBUR AINT NO TANK.Calling him to close the distance is calling him do die or to spam his Blind and since the nerf you are truly better off with Loki since you don't need to do finishers all you need to do is spam E and 2.Excalibur on the other hand after the nerf his wave are weaker so you would be better off with blood rush and body count and get that multiplier up rather than using EB.

Suggestions:

1:Remove the wave completely,buff the EB and also give him a shield to block damage also allow him to use both blood rush and body count.

2:"Buff" Radial Javelin as we all know RJ is weak sort of,give it a shorter range but unlimited hit count and allow it to go with Radial Blind to amp up the damage making it a short range nuke to clear enemies when in trouble.

That's about all you need to do to make Excalibur viable again or just unroll the nerf.

[MetalJacket]

2 hours ago, MichaelSD said:

I absolutely approve this change. The "shooting thingies"  were inappropriate for a blade frame anyway. I think Excalibur is good now, there is a bit more reason to use our Skanas (or other melee weapons) again.

Thank you Devs!

Sorry about those who dislike the change....

I must say that excalibur is the only frame that gave me that Amine type of Hype since Like I said I watch Anime and it gave me that Bleach powerfull feeling, but hey lets face it at least now I wont have to buy Excalibur Umbra if he ever releases cause he will be as useless as any of he 2 Excalibur variants. the funny thing is that so many founders that got ripped a new one.

[tekmansam]

I've already made several points on Excalibur, and many have made similar, but @MetalJacket made a good point.  Excalibur is meant to be the thematic "paladin" trope.  He inspired that Bleach feeling in my so much as well, and I thought that he deserved a Getsuga Tensho type wave instead of the spammy one, but that's neither here nor there.  His point was that he could use a shield.  I dislike Excalibur's passive, because it tries to force you to use one handed weapons, when two handed weapons still outshadow them with or without the passive.  I still use Galatine, so I in essence have a completely wasted passive.  If you really wanted to build him as a "perfect blend of offense and defense" and wanted him to be the "paladin" frame, then why doesn't he have a shield?  I love sword and board type tank characters, and I think Excalibur would be thematically suited for one.  If Rhino is essentially the "protection warrior" and Valkyr is the "fury warrior," then Excal is built like an "arms warrior."  If you really want him to find his role again, you need to get back to your original concept.  Maybe a shield isn't such a bad idea.  No other frame has a built in shield (unless you count the new volt sort of.)  I don't think it is a direction that Excalibur will ever be taken, but I think its an interesting notion.  Of course, this would cause a whole bunch of problems, so I don't really recommend it, but maybe give him a passive that would inspire relevant use out of Silva & Aegis, and similar type weapons.

Edited May 30, 2016 by tekmansam
afterthought