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[DE]Rebecca

Hotfix 18.13.1

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6 hours ago, -MidnightMan said:

Exactly !  Spent 3,996 hours in game to complete 336 of 336 available items (MR21)  to build my house, with 4,300 plats in the wall safe.  It's a bit shocking that someone came by a burned it to the ground, leaving the land unusable for future construction. All that's left to do, is walk away disappointed.  

Sad but true.

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6 hours ago, Finances said:

It seems DE is more focused on finding ways to nerf the players experience than actually creating a meaningful one. 

The abilities and tactics existed for the sole purpose of circumventing the basic game design issues present in current levels in regard to enemy scaling and abilities. Instead of saying this particular class is being used too much for something specific why not ask yourself why this issue exists in the first place? Warframe isn't a game with only a character select screen, its a game with enemies, goals, levels, and more. Instead of acknowledging why players use and create the metas they do, its like being punished for eating a cake you baked the wrong way. We realized if we ate the cake the way you wanted us to we would be limited and probably never finish it, so we used other means to circumvent the basic problem. Instead of going hey...maybe we messed up with the cake, DE in turn degrades how we experience it. That in itself is poor design. 

This even falls back to the Draco and Vauban issue or other "farming" nodes pertaining to resources. Arguments were made as to how a resource sink was needed in some way... so common sense was to choose a resource people don't have much of anyway? Is that not contradictory to what your goals were in the first place? The main reason I'm bringing this up is because it can now been seen that this mindset is leaking into the actual mechanics of the characters used in the game rather than how people experience the game with the content presented to them. All the nerfs in the world wont mean a thing if the level you're playing on is fundamentally flawed from the start. All you end up doing is alienating your player-base for a dilemma you refuse to fix. Reducing the grind doesn't merely involve shifting players over to a different location or spreading them out, its how that experience is handled that matters. For the most part as humans we try to function in efficient ways, and that will generally be the norm when presented with a challenge. To try to combat this norm is to go against the player experience rather than molding one. I feel it is a fundamentally poor decision on a developers part to influence how they feel players should play their game. You give us the tools to play your game and we decode what makes it good or bad in the process. Its when you begin to encroach on tools that were a solution to the issues presented and remove them rather than correcting core principals within your own design. 

For the most part people don't assume "fun" and "grind" are mutually exclusive, and for the most part this is correct. To grind for something implies that you must do a task multiple times until you get what you desire. Warframe is based around this principle, and many of the rewards given are based around this principle. If that is the direction presented to us then at least make it so we have the tools to deal with the grind accordingly. Don't reduce what we have, that essentially aids in the favor of a grind. Rather add on to the experience we receive while we do it or really take a moment to rework how rewards are given in the first place AND how characters go about using their skills to claim them.

It doesn't bother you that Warframe is wildly joked about as a farming simulator? Jokes are in a sense the truths to issues presented in a different form. I cant help but feel many of these "reworks" did not have the testing time to back them up. If even relatively new players can immediately feel the impact of these changes in a negative way what does that say about the development team thats been working on this game for years? Honestly I feel the best course of action would be to roll-back what has been done. Feel free  to keep the buffs that were needed but to actually consider what needs to be worked on in the first place. There were many frames that needed viable late-game scaling reworks and that was pretty much ignored. Not only was it ignored but it was nearly a slap in the face to see the results. I could even go on about how hype was created for reworks pertaining to frames such as volt, but mysteriously no mention of the gravity pertaining to the incoming nerfs until it was basically upon us with the veil of a "rework". If you are going to take, there needs to be a give that makes up for it, a push and pull. You cant just keep taking and every now and again give, expecting us to still have something left by the time you're ready to do so.

Warframe is about being a cool space ninja but its starting to feel more and more like a watered down version of every other fps out there with gimmicks. We had cool tools to handle otherwise uncool situations, now all we are starting to have is purely tools to barely handle poor situations. I'm writing this in the hopes that you actually listen to the community this time around and recognize that this patch was the tipping point for a lot of people. A lot of people responding or that have been involved in game balance discussion previously have a right to feel as if they've been ignored and most of them are justified pertaining to the current state of things. You may read this or you may not, but even us as a community can only say so much until you decide to take action on it. A mountain of constructive criticism means nothing if you only plan on using what you wanted to implement in the first place.

"We don't want the game to feel like a massive grindwall" . Except with every update it becomes more of a grindwall. And it's clear the folks defending nerfs don't play "endgame" content , at all.

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But... Bu-bu-bu, but i finally enjoy her passive. So next time give here something better and think 2 times before you add another farming tool.

Edited by AstroLord

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13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Changes
- Fixed having an unpurchased TennoGen attachment item in your inventory.
-

 

 

Seems to have removed my purchased Frost Grost shoulder attachments, unless i'm not supposed to be allowed to use them with my Frost Prime. And if not, why the ding-dang-doodly not?

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would yo make focuses start full so that we can atleast use the vazarin scool to increase bless range if it even would work tha way

ps. I wonder who had the bright idea that trinity needed a change in the firstplace 

dont breake what is working, dont fix whats not broken

 

Edited by Satchii
had more to add
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13 hours ago, Cruzifixio said:

Please show me that setup because I can't seem to make her half as useful as she was yesterday.

No yeah he's right she's a whole helluva lot stronger now. The problem is, here, that you just don't know how to use her. Her abilities are made to synergize with eachother now, which I actually really like. Saryn's abilities are just as strong as they were before her rework too, again, you just don't know how to use her to full potential.

 

What they're doing to these frames? It's something beautiful called balance, and they're making these frames more fun to play because they make you think about how you use them. If you don't like that, it's your problem, because we're not going back to cheesy abilities again.

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Just now, WingedCrusade said:

She's better than she was before, buddy.

well mags 2 :p, it doesnt scale at all anymore, and her other abilities are just decent 

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Mesa is dealing 3x less damage in the last hotfix. I dont mind not having multy shot over the EVEN lower base peacemaker damage. A good frame tho but it can be better

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24 minutes ago, lashakanisgod said:

well mags 2 :p, it doesnt scale at all anymore, and her other abilities are just decent 

Did you use them in tandem with each other? I ran an intercept mission with level 40 enemies who kept swarming me and they performed just fine with how I used them.

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1 minute ago, Latiac said:

Still no fix for all these nerfs hitting everything so hard.

So you want one button wins and boring, stagnant game play back? Have you tried any of the changes? Did you try to something else to work with the change?

All in all, the entirety of this patch has been pretty 50/50 on feedback, which is surprising. I expected way more salt posts to last for a week or more, but after a few hours of players testing things out, most have changed their tune. I find the game is much healthier now, and points to  more positive changes in the future. Kudos to DE for their hard work and bringing the fun back in Warframe. Mesa feels great, Volt has great CC potential, Mag is still a powerhouse but in a different way, I don't feel bad about using Mirage anymore, I embrace Excaliburs that come in and do sword stuff, I'm glad Trin makes the attempt to stay near the team, and Valkyr feels like a true berserker. Some minor issues here and there but that's what the feedback threads are for to address them and  work towards a tweak here and there.

The only question on my mind is what is being planned for Chroma, if anything?

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Probabily already been said, but thought I'd report. This won't bother me personally as I've finished ranking him up but Effigy is glitched on Chroma. Didn't try his other abilities in the mission I was in.

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3 hours ago, ciaphuscain said:

"We don't want the game to feel like a massive grindwall" . Except with every update it becomes more of a grindwall. And it's clear the folks defending nerfs don't play "endgame" content , at all.

I agree with the grind complaint, but not with the "Endgame". I can deal with up to level 150 enemies without depending on a clutch like, old Mirage Blind or Excaliturret.

Radial blind buffs Exalted blade to astronomical levels, so it's loss in ranged damage becomes irrelevant, much better than spin blind of which i don't even know why it exists when RB is so much better than it.

Mirage Hall of Mirrors + Eclipse is what made her become what she is, not her cheesy coma inducing blind, I see no fun in beating sandbags. Her Blind was cool but a bit excessive

Trinity nerfs hurt her soloing potential a bit(she still has her Link...), but her utility in groups does not change  it's about time people learned to cooperate with others instead of becoming hallway heroes, she is still the best support frame, because Equinox had a range limitation to her healing from day one.

Mag was not nerfed, her gameplay changed, she's pretty balanced, although some small changes to her Shield Polarize are welcome.

Mesa's buff was indeed perfect, her 2 ability is now useful, although i'd prefer if they changed it a bit, She has far too many buffs.

Valkyr, was the only one I agree that was a bit excessive, mainly due to the fact that her other abilities are almost useless. Ripine fails on so many levels i can't bring myself to use it any other way than a repositioning tool, Paralize is worthless because in order to build it properly, you'd have to build her in a way that would weaken all her other abilities, and even then it would still be weak. Warcry needs a few tweaks, it's buffs are nice but only for a melee valkyr, it's pretty good for a Hysteria build, but weak for pretty much everything else. Please DE, she's too boring right now, it's either play 4 to win or master melee, because everything else doesn't seem to work properly

Edited by DreadWarlock
Some mistakes
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13 hours ago, ZaeXithos said:


Okay DE.  I'm going to step back from the actual decisions being made here.  I want to talk about the philosophy behind them, and what you, as developers, need to be thinking about when you make these changes.  They smack of kneejerk reactions, without understanding the deeper meanings of why things happen the way they do.  So as someone who's worked in game development myself, I'm going to help you bridge the gap between player's-eye viewpoint and dev's-eye viewpoint.

Now, with any content you make, people are going to look for strategies that beat it.  That's the nature of the game.  It's the nature of every video game - to overcome the challenges the devs have put before you and reap the rewards, then use those rewards to meet and overcome the next set of challenges.  Your goal, as a developer, is to provide a challenge to your playerbase that is difficult enough to require strategy and tactics and preparation, but is also winnable within a margin of error that is humanly achievable.

Warframe's highest-end content has a serious problem with that.  Once enemy levels get into the 60s, 70s, 80s+, survival becomes increasingly binary.  You are either alive and strictly invulnerable, invisible, or sheltered behind tens of thousands of intervening effective health points, or you are dead the moment you are exposed to enemy fire.  First it's the bombards, who deal ridiculous damage over huge AoE.  Then you notice that seekers and eviscerators are one-shotting you too, and soon enough you fear stepping outside that Frost's bubble for even a half second lest you catch a stray Grakata round and spontaneously evaporate into a cloud of gore.

Some people look at that and go 'nope, not playing that, that's not fun.'  In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of 'em, typically.  I've never been fond of games where one slight mistake will end you.  This is why I don't play sorties, despite the rewards.  I don't know a lot of people, I don't like trying to put together a team for it, and it has such strict requirements on what you can and cannot bring to the table that most of my arsenal is useless in it.

Others, however, look at that and go 'challenge accepted.'  They will look for ways to overcome even this extreme difficulty.  Like Ivara surviving while invisible and using sleep arrow and covert lethality to score kills regardless of armor and HP.  Or Blind Mirage rendering entire spawns comatose across an entire map and then merrily obliterating them one after another.  Or Ash using a combination of invulnerability and finisher damage to kill enemies he could never take in a straight fight.  Or Excalibur utilizing EB's range and blind-spin to get free finishers and stay out of reach of enemies while still benefitting from his sword boost passive.

The fact is, players look for ways to trivialize content because there's content that's very good at trivializing players.  It is, in fact, using content-trivializing strategies is the only way to survive player-trivializing content.

When health and armor don't matter, and shields are merely a formality between enemies and your health, your best guns take off mere slivers of enemy health, and all the buffs in the world won't fix either of those situations, that's when players reach for the nuke options - invulnerability, invisibility, scaling damage absorption, finisher damage, finisher openers, and instant-kills.

What's important to remember is that players are right to do this.  You made the content capable of obliterating anyone without these tools; therefore, players are going to use the tools you gave them that work.  And they're going to keep using them, until you either take the tools away (nerfing), or the tools are no longer necessary and there are more efficient and less-drastic means of accomplishing the mission.  If my guns started to deal damage again, and my shields and health could actually survive a bullet or two, I might decide to use them over wtfhax bladestorm/stacked snowglobes/BLIND BLIND BLIND SLEEP SLEEP SLEEP FINISHER FINISHER FINISHER.

So here's what you, as game devs, need to do.  Ask yourselves the question, "What are players SUPPOSED to do to defeat this content?"  And gear your changes towards THAT.  You need to make a hard decision as to what gear and what methods players are allowed to use, and which are exploitative and need to be either nerfed-out or compensated for.  The answer "Players aren't supposed to defeat this content" isn't an acceptable answer; it's a terrible GM that measures success in trashed character sheets, and likewise it's a terrible developer that measures success in Game Overs.

Finally, you need to look at rewards in the light of the effort required to get them.  If defeating a piece of content is supposed to be a difficult task and a momentous event when you and your cell succeeds, then the rewards should be commensurate.  The rewards need to be something immediately good and useful.  If you throw out player-trivializing content, and then say to those who beat it "Congratulations, now run it five hundred times more if you want a reasonable chance to get the actual good rewards from it" then they're going to look at you, scoff, and walk out.

This is how you make good gameplay.

Please. Is there anyway, AT ALL, to be able to PM the developers on the forums? I want them to read this, on the next devstream, and see how they react. The only time that they've posted here is when someone cussed them out (I think, didn't read the post before it was deleted) and I could feel they could get something out of this, for the better.

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11 minutes ago, Achievement-get said:

Please. Is there anyway, AT ALL, to be able to PM the developers on the forums? I want them to read this, on the next devstream, and see how they react. The only time that they've posted here is when someone cussed them out (I think, didn't read the post before it was deleted) and I could feel they could get something out of this, for the better.

I hope for that too. And If Im not wrong founders have something like a direct line with the Devs, but dont know how it works or how to ask direct questions to them to be showed on the devstreams

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Just now, DarkDemonXR69 said:

I hope for that too. And If Im not wrong founders have something like a direct line with the Devs, but dont know how it works or how to ask direct questions to them to be showed on the devstreams

They had the Design Council forums and In-Game chat, correct? I'd honestly love to see some big founder/warframe youtubers get in on this.

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3 hours ago, _-Baphomet-_ said:

Mag's magnetize feels so weak, and the range is so short : (

Magnetize is a DoT skill appearently. It'll be tricky to use it now, but i see some potential.

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My question is why didn't they work with us the players to make these changes rather than BAM Bombard to the face like a vote system and we get to beta try it out....like in the simulator room or something and we give feed back. Why is it they always just dump this stuff on us with no warning and WHY DOES NOTHING SCALE i like to do hard missions but most frames don't scale in the damage so it makes everything so hard to do unless your a rabbit on acid or something honestly maybe make it scale and there will be a hell of alot less complaints the enemies get a nice scaling and instant killing if i stand in one spot for to long why not us why do we have to keep moving to the point that it becomes a fatigue on the hands for us key board and mouse players to just keep going or having a frame that can take a S#&$ load of damage i don't like rhino i don't want to play him i don't like frost i don't want to play him scale it DE please because at this point in time im glad ive found a new game to play till the water cools down as its scolding hot right now so i cant get in and play.

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2 hours ago, WingedCrusade said:

Did you use them in tandem with each other? I ran an intercept mission with level 40 enemies who kept swarming me and they performed just fine with how I used them.

Level 40 if you are modded perfectly is around the place where you start seeing mag die. At around level 60 to 80 you can't do anything, even to corpus enemies, which were like the whole reason mag was useful in the first place. "using the skills together" doesn't make her a better warframe, it just helps to make the other skills less boring and thus more used by the community. Does this mean the rework is good? Not at all -< using it in high level content (and I mean, as you may have guessed, HIGH, from 80 to 120) is not reliable, under any circumstance, because the armor reduction doesn't scale with any other power, so there's no way to speed that up, and we don't need a Vauban/Nova hybrid.

2 hours ago, CrazyCortex said:

So you want one button wins and boring, stagnant game play back? Have you tried any of the changes? Did you try to something else to work with the change?

All in all, the entirety of this patch has been pretty 50/50 on feedback, which is surprising. I expected way more salt posts to last for a week or more, but after a few hours of players testing things out, most have changed their tune. I find the game is much healthier now, and points to  more positive changes in the future. Kudos to DE for their hard work and bringing the fun back in Warframe. Mesa feels great, Volt has great CC potential, Mag is still a powerhouse but in a different way, I don't feel bad about using Mirage anymore, I embrace Excaliburs that come in and do sword stuff, I'm glad Trin makes the attempt to stay near the team, and Valkyr feels like a true berserker. Some minor issues here and there but that's what the feedback threads are for to address them and  work towards a tweak here and there.

The only question on my mind is what is being planned for Chroma, if anything?

You honestly don't seem to understand the game at all. If the enemy, whatever the faction, just the enemy, even the common soldier of those, can kill you with one hit, from 50m far, with aimbot just after crossing a door to the room you are in, then the win-buttons are what we need. In short, your lack of knowledge about the endgame doesn't mean you're bad, but complaining "oh you want a win button" when WHAT THE GAME NEEDS IS A WIN BUTTON OR AN ENEMY SCALING CHANGE then you don't know the game you're playing. Sure, go play with level 20 enemies, testing there is always the focus right? who even plays any more? if now you can't even survive in the slightest unless you're disabling the enemy in 3 different ways at the same time or you are invulnerable. Now, if you ask WHY do people go that far, is easy: a prime piece with less than 4% drop chance that is only out every 20 rounds in a limited resource (T4key) means, to maximize the efficiency, you need to run long runs. HOW IN THE LORD'S NAME YOU DO THAT WITH ALL THESE NERFS AND ONE-HIT-SQUAD-KILL ENEMIES (bombards)?

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1 minute ago, GDSK-NXS said:

Level 40 if you are modded perfectly is around the place where you start seeing mag die. At around level 60 to 80 you can't do anything, even to corpus enemies, which were like the whole reason mag was useful in the first place. "using the skills together" doesn't make her a better warframe, it just helps to make the other skills less boring and thus more used by the community. Does this mean the rework is good? Not at all -< using it in high level content (and I mean, as you may have guessed, HIGH, from 80 to 120) is not reliable, under any circumstance, because the armor reduction doesn't scale with any other power, so there's no way to speed that up, and we don't need a Vauban/Nova hybrid.

You honestly don't seem to understand the game at all. If the enemy, whatever the faction, just the enemy, even the common soldier of those, can kill you with one hit, from 50m far, with aimbot just after crossing a door to the room you are in, then the win-buttons are what we need. In short, your lack of knowledge about the endgame doesn't mean you're bad, but complaining "oh you want a win button" when WHAT THE GAME NEEDS IS A WIN BUTTON OR AN ENEMY SCALING CHANGE then you don't know the game you're playing. Sure, go play with level 20 enemies, testing there is always the focus right? who even plays any more? if now you can't even survive in the slightest unless you're disabling the enemy in 3 different ways at the same time or you are invulnerable. Now, if you ask WHY do people go that far, is easy: a prime piece with less than 4% drop chance that is only out every 20 rounds in a limited resource (T4key) means, to maximize the efficiency, you need to run long runs. HOW IN THE LORD'S NAME YOU DO THAT WITH ALL THESE NERFS AND ONE-HIT-SQUAD-KILL ENEMIES (bombards)?

Then allow me to inform you that the devs are looking into enemy scaling, they're checking how things go with this update before working out how to tackle that. I said this update points to more positive changes. We got a response on it, it is being acknowledged. So instead of crying for unhealthy gameplay to return, play with the changes for a bit and jot down issues you're finding without bringing up endgame. It's pretty obvious no one enjoys endgame from all the screaming about it, so I'll recommend you stay away from it for some time to adjust to these changes.

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17 hours ago, Cruzifixio said:

Almost never post in forums, been playing for 3 years. You promised to make Mag useful. 
Mag is crap right now. Please do something about it.

She has joined Oberon in the "they are perfectly balanced" BS zone be happy at least she got a rework 

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