Hotfix 18.13.1

[MidnightMan]

1 hour ago, Nasair said:

I was going to say something similar, except I've spent a bit of money on the game.

I don't think people that are asking for these nerfs get that for those that worked hard to get a specialized setup it is very discouraging.

It feels like I spent time, money, and energy to build a house, and then the city changed the zoning laws so I have to either sale or tear down the parts I like.

Exactly !  Spent 3,996 hours in game to complete 336 of 336 available items (MR21)  to build my house, with 4,300 plats in the wall safe.  It's a bit shocking that someone came by a burned it to the ground, leaving the land unusable for future construction. All that's left to do, is walk away disappointed.  

[SeekersDude]

6 hours ago, SourTaco said:

This, i feel like mesa is in a good place now, no more changes needed :P.

I don't understand why they made this peacemaker change in the first place, if they want to have the damage reduced to be exactly the same again anyways. This is only another downside for players who don't have the mods/fusion cores/credits/time to max their secondary weapons appropriately.

[Finances]

It seems DE is more focused on finding ways to nerf the players experience than actually creating a meaningful one. 

The abilities and tactics existed for the sole purpose of circumventing the basic game design issues present in current levels in regard to enemy scaling and abilities. Instead of saying this particular class is being used too much for something specific why not ask yourself why this issue exists in the first place? Warframe isn't a game with only a character select screen, its a game with enemies, goals, levels, and more. Instead of acknowledging why players use and create the metas they do, its like being punished for eating a cake you baked the wrong way. We realized if we ate the cake the way you wanted us to we would be limited and probably never finish it, so we used other means to circumvent the basic problem. Instead of going hey...maybe we messed up with the cake, DE in turn degrades how we experience it. That in itself is poor design. 

This even falls back to the Draco and Vauban issue or other "farming" nodes pertaining to resources. Arguments were made as to how a resource sink was needed in some way... so common sense was to choose a resource people don't have much of anyway? Is that not contradictory to what your goals were in the first place? The main reason I'm bringing this up is because it can now been seen that this mindset is leaking into the actual mechanics of the characters used in the game rather than how people experience the game with the content presented to them. All the nerfs in the world wont mean a thing if the level you're playing on is fundamentally flawed from the start. All you end up doing is alienating your player-base for a dilemma you refuse to fix. Reducing the grind doesn't merely involve shifting players over to a different location or spreading them out, its how that experience is handled that matters. For the most part as humans we try to function in efficient ways, and that will generally be the norm when presented with a challenge. To try to combat this norm is to go against the player experience rather than molding one. I feel it is a fundamentally poor decision on a developers part to influence how they feel players should play their game. You give us the tools to play your game and we decode what makes it good or bad in the process. Its when you begin to encroach on tools that were a solution to the issues presented and remove them rather than correcting core principals within your own design. 

For the most part people don't assume "fun" and "grind" are mutually exclusive, and for the most part this is correct. To grind for something implies that you must do a task multiple times until you get what you desire. Warframe is based around this principle, and many of the rewards given are based around this principle. If that is the direction presented to us then at least make it so we have the tools to deal with the grind accordingly. Don't reduce what we have, that essentially aids in the favor of a grind. Rather add on to the experience we receive while we do it or really take a moment to rework how rewards are given in the first place AND how characters go about using their skills to claim them.

It doesn't bother you that Warframe is wildly joked about as a farming simulator? Jokes are in a sense the truths to issues presented in a different form. I cant help but feel many of these "reworks" did not have the testing time to back them up. If even relatively new players can immediately feel the impact of these changes in a negative way what does that say about the development team thats been working on this game for years? Honestly I feel the best course of action would be to roll-back what has been done. Feel free  to keep the buffs that were needed but to actually consider what needs to be worked on in the first place. There were many frames that needed viable late-game scaling reworks and that was pretty much ignored. Not only was it ignored but it was nearly a slap in the face to see the results. I could even go on about how hype was created for reworks pertaining to frames such as volt, but mysteriously no mention of the gravity pertaining to the incoming nerfs until it was basically upon us with the veil of a "rework". If you are going to take, there needs to be a give that makes up for it, a push and pull. You cant just keep taking and every now and again give, expecting us to still have something left by the time you're ready to do so.

Warframe is about being a cool space ninja but its starting to feel more and more like a watered down version of every other fps out there with gimmicks. We had cool tools to handle otherwise uncool situations, now all we are starting to have is purely tools to barely handle poor situations. I'm writing this in the hopes that you actually listen to the community this time around and recognize that this patch was the tipping point for a lot of people. A lot of people responding or that have been involved in game balance discussion previously have a right to feel as if they've been ignored and most of them are justified pertaining to the current state of things. You may read this or you may not, but even us as a community can only say so much until you decide to take action on it. A mountain of constructive criticism means nothing if you only plan on using what you wanted to implement in the first place.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Finances

[SeraphRakov]

Not a huge fan of the trinity Blessing nerf. JUST the maximum range or JUST the damage resistance formula rework would have been understandable, but were both really that necessary?

[FR_Duffrize]

armor reduction by frost ulti don't work anymore ?

Edited May 28, 2016 by robin888

[Circle_of_Psi]

What about Limbo's Rework?

Also, what about the blade-strom change, I want to kown, cuz I main Ash 

[AxelXirics]

Please bring back Trinity and Mirage into raids. They were a staple for them. And now they are dead.

[mkwabo]

Hello De,

 I would like to make a request to make speeds field of view adjustable by the player. I personally prefer the a high field of view due to me modding volt for extreme speeds. As you can imagine a large fov helps me when running around the map as  increases my peripheral vision and general alertness. Now I know some players get motion sick from it, which is why I think an adjustable fov slider would be the best solution, as everyone wins. I know you probably received some complaints about the high fov, but it is also important to take into consideration the silent people who are happy with the way things are. Thank you for your time and have a nice day!

loyal Tenno

[Guest]

Third day of how I cant make myself to play more then one or two missions in this game ...

Edited May 28, 2016 by Guest

[EmVaper]

3 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

Despite how we got to this point in the thread, the underlying issues raised about scaling and the root cause of trivialization is an important issue. Good that it's mentioned again. Pretty sure we've all discussed or mentioned it at one time or another, in some way. 

But back to some of the current changes. I'm not sure when Volt's speed being instantly granted to the team (when in range) became an issue, but the pickup doesn't seem like a good way to address players' concerns (if it is an issue).

Volt's speed has never been an issue for me (when granted), and I've never had a single player complain/tell me not to use it.

A fun tactic for me in T3s was to use melee Volt while on speed. Dragon Nikana with the mandatory mods. When the whole team is moving fast, our evasion is boosted as well, which eliminated the need for a Frost in T3 D (or any pod shielding 'frame). This isn't to say that is endgame, or we truly pushed things to the limits, it's to say we had fun playing a different way. (Trinity made things easier with the energy, of course.)

I ran Volt a bit post-rework and I've yet to see anyone pickup a speed drop (I don't actually know what it looks like/can't see anything on my screen that looks like a pickup).

I appreciate the changes, overall, but the justification for a few of these (I'm only commenting on what I've actually played with post-rework) seems thin.

With Volt, the speed pickup seems well meaning (giving folks an opt-in) but I don't know of any other buff that's opt-in.

Please revisit this idea, and if anyone really hates being sped up by Volt, please chime in. It's news to me. (No, that doesn't mean it isn't possible. I just would like to hear your side.)

I'm yet to take Mag and the others for a spin, but I'll probably pay more attention to how she feels over the others. Seems like the complaint is her ability to pulverize Corpus has been reduced in an effort to make her more useful across other factions. Is that about it?

Somewhat similar to making Saryn less of a one-trick-pony with her rework? I warmed to Saryn's new playstyle (after really only using her 3 and 4 before). Hopefully there's some light in this Mag rework, yes? If not, I'm sure DE will get an earful from the community.

I will miss being able to save teammates lives when they wander too far--especially if they're newer players. I'll still tell them to stay close, as I always do.

You can count me as one that hates it if a volt is using speed. When it happen i usually stay behind until it turns off. And if ppl keep using it i wlil quit the game. But i would rather have it function like limbo rift. Just roll to turn it off. Now if the field of vision changes for the other players i might like it.

Edited May 28, 2016 by EmVaper
JUst some addition to my comment.

[WhyNotBro]

1 hour ago, Finances said:

Its seems DE is more focused on finding ways to nerf the players experience than actually creating a meaningful one. 

The abilities and tactics existed for the sole purpose of circumventing the basic game design issues present in current levels in regard to enemy scaling and abilities. Instead of saying this particular class is being used too much for something specific why not ask yourself why this issue exists in the first place? Warframe isn't a game with only a character select screen, its a game with enemies, goals, levels, and more. Instead of acknowledging why players use and create the metas they do, its like being punished for eating a cake you baked the wrong way. We realized if we ate the cake the way you wanted us to we would be limited and probably never finish it, so we used other means to circumvent the basic problem. Instead of going hey...maybe we messed up with the cake, DE in turn degrades how we experience it. That in itself is poor design. 

This even falls back to the Draco and Vauban issue or other "farming" nodes pertaining to resources. Arguments were made as to how a resource sink was needed in some way... so common sense was to choose a resource people don't have much of anyway? Is that not contradictory to what your goals were in the first place? The main reason I'm bringing this up is because it can now been seen that this mindset is leaking into the actual mechanics of the characters used in the game rather than how people experience the game with the content presented to them. All the nerfs in the world wont mean a thing if the level you're playing on is fundamentally flawed from the start. All you end up doing is alienating your player-base for a dilemma you refuse to fix. Reducing the grind doesn't merely involve shifting players over to a different location or spreading them out, its how that experience is handled that matters. For the most part as humans we try to function in efficient ways, and that will generally be the norm when presented with a challenge. To try to combat this norm is to go against the player experience rather than molding one. I feel it is a fundamentally poor decision on a developers part to influence how they feel players should play their game. You give us the tools to play your game and we decode what makes it good or bad in the process. Its when you begin to encroach on tools that were a solution to the issues presented and remove them rather than correcting core principals within your own design. 

For the most part people don't assume "fun" and "grind" are mutually exclusive, and for the most part this is correct. To grind for something implies that you must do a task multiple times until you get what you desire. Warframe is based around this principle, and many of the rewards given are based around this principle. If that is the direction presented to us then at least make it so we have the tools to deal with the grind accordingly. Don't reduce what we have, that essentially aids in the favor of a grind. Rather add on to the experience we receive while we do it or really take a moment to rework how rewards are given in the first place AND how characters go about using their skills to claim them.

It doesn't bother you that Warframe is wildly joked about as a farming simulator? Jokes are in a sense the truths to issues presented in a different form. I cant help but feel many of these "reworks" did not have the testing time to back them up. If even relatively new players can immediately feel the impact of these changes in a negative way what does that say about the development team thats been working on this game for years? Honestly I feel the best course of action would be to roll-back what has been done. Feel free  to keep the buffs that were needed but to actually consider what needs to be worked on in the first place. There were many frames that needed viable late-game scaling reworks and that was pretty much ignored. Not only was it ignored but it was nearly a slap in the face to see the results. I could even go on about how hype was created for reworks pertaining to frames such as volt, but mysteriously no mention of the gravity pertaining to the incoming nerfs until it was basically upon us with the veil of a "rework". If you are going to take, there needs to be a give that makes up for it, a push and pull. You cant just keep taking and every now and again give, expecting us to still have something left by the time you're ready to do so.

Warframe is about being a cool space ninja but its starting to feel more and more like a watered down version of every other fps out there with gimmicks. We had cool tools to handle otherwise uncool situations, now all we are starting to have is purely tools to barely handle poor situations. I'm writing this in the hopes that you actually listen to the community this time around and recognize that this patch was the tipping point for a lot of people. A lot of people responding or that have been involved in game balance discussion previously have a right to feel as if they've been ignored and most of them are justified pertaining to the current state of things. You may read this or you may not, but even us as a community can only say so much until you decide to take action on it. A mountain of constructive criticism means nothing if you only plan on using what you wanted to implement in the first place.

 I really suggest you to read and think about this, DE. So true.

[Calm_Your_Tits]

6 hours ago, magikninjaa said:

Nerfs?? i like her the way she is now i use the ev build if any one is low on shields i spam the bless then continue to vamp leech :D

if u are one of raider, u won't love the "rework".

[ZurekMorraff]

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Changes

- Temporarily removed Mag's Vacuum Passive...

Oh yeah? Are they gonna give her something else, more themed?

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

...sound until we can refine.

Oh... Okay...Guess i'm still Carrier.

To Quote myself from another post:

I love Mag. She was my Gateway-Drug to Warframe. She still holds 12% of my 1264 hours. The only Frame who surpases her in play time is Frost Prime, by a meager 1%.

I was so excited and ready to see what DE would do with her when they revealed she would be getting a rework! When they began to talk and show her new powers, i was so happy. She's even more amazing now then she ever was, and she always has been, at least in my eyes.

They began going over passives, however, and I was met with... unenthusiastic remarks, from those around me, and even from the Devs themselves... "She has a small vaccume on bulletjump", they all said, like they were sweeping dust under a rug, just to get it out of the way... The Stalker may have cut deeply into my frame, but those words, the tone they were always spoken in, cut deeper into my heart...

I started to look for new ideas, new ways to be more helpful, more themed, more... loved...

So many ideas, from myself, my friends, cummunity players in the odd mission...

"Maybe she could pull minerals shards from the environment when she bullet jumps, that act like the shards that will fall off the armored enemies!"

"Maybe she could get longer wall-latch because she can magnetize herself to the wall?"

"What if she drained shields from nearby units, when she bulletjumps?"

"... Magnetised them to the floor, like a knockdown when she bulletjumps..."

"... got Shields, or even energy, from Magnetic procs..."

"... increased nearby allies shields..."

"... "Magnetised" projectiles like a rail-gun, increasing their projectile flight speed..."

"... Has a chance to "repell" magnetic proced enemies that come to close..."

Each time I heard a new idea, I had hope the team would change their mind. With so many ideas, they must have been getting back to them, in some amount... Maybe they did, and just wern't heard, or seen as moving in a direction they didn't want to push her into... I'm not sure where theings went, how they got there, but i'm not giving up yet... 

 

Make Mag, Mag.

The Magnetizing, Shield Polarizing, Enemy Crushing, Unit Pulling, Corpus Killing, Grineer Shreding, Infested Clensing, Beauty of a frame she was always ment to be, and has finally become.

Please, take another look at her passive, take a moment to think over some of the listed ideas...

... Even if Mag's passive is here to stay, Thank you for your time. Thank you for your efforts. Thank you for making such an amazing game.

Thank you for Mag.

Edited May 28, 2016 by ZurekMorraff

[Noteybook]

7 hours ago, ZaeXithos said:

Okay DE.  I'm going to step back from the actual decisions being made here.  I want to talk about the philosophy behind them, and what you, as developers, need to be thinking about when you make these changes.  They smack of kneejerk reactions, without understanding the deeper meanings of why things happen the way they do.  So as someone who's worked in game development myself, I'm going to help you bridge the gap between player's-eye viewpoint and dev's-eye viewpoint.

Now, with any content you make, people are going to look for strategies that beat it.  That's the nature of the game.  It's the nature of every video game - to overcome the challenges the devs have put before you and reap the rewards, then use those rewards to meet and overcome the next set of challenges.  Your goal, as a developer, is to provide a challenge to your playerbase that is difficult enough to require strategy and tactics and preparation, but is also winnable within a margin of error that is humanly achievable.

Warframe's highest-end content has a serious problem with that.  Once enemy levels get into the 60s, 70s, 80s+, survival becomes increasingly binary.  You are either alive and strictly invulnerable, invisible, or sheltered behind tens of thousands of intervening effective health points, or you are dead the moment you are exposed to enemy fire.  First it's the bombards, who deal ridiculous damage over huge AoE.  Then you notice that seekers and eviscerators are one-shotting you too, and soon enough you fear stepping outside that Frost's bubble for even a half second lest you catch a stray Grakata round and spontaneously evaporate into a cloud of gore.

Some people look at that and go 'nope, not playing that, that's not fun.'  In the interest of full disclosure, I'm one of 'em, typically.  I've never been fond of games where one slight mistake will end you.  This is why I don't play sorties, despite the rewards.  I don't know a lot of people, I don't like trying to put together a team for it, and it has such strict requirements on what you can and cannot bring to the table that most of my arsenal is useless in it.

Others, however, look at that and go 'challenge accepted.'  They will look for ways to overcome even this extreme difficulty.  Like Ivara surviving while invisible and using sleep arrow and covert lethality to score kills regardless of armor and HP.  Or Blind Mirage rendering entire spawns comatose across an entire map and then merrily obliterating them one after another.  Or Ash using a combination of invulnerability and finisher damage to kill enemies he could never take in a straight fight.  Or Excalibur utilizing EB's range and blind-spin to get free finishers and stay out of reach of enemies while still benefitting from his sword boost passive.

The fact is, players look for ways to trivialize content because there's content that's very good at trivializing players.  It is, in fact, using content-trivializing strategies is the only way to survive player-trivializing content.

When health and armor don't matter, and shields are merely a formality between enemies and your health, your best guns take off mere slivers of enemy health, and all the buffs in the world won't fix either of those situations, that's when players reach for the nuke options - invulnerability, invisibility, scaling damage absorption, finisher damage, finisher openers, and instant-kills.

What's important to remember is that players are right to do this.  You made the content capable of obliterating anyone without these tools; therefore, players are going to use the tools you gave them that work.  And they're going to keep using them, until you either take the tools away (nerfing), or the tools are no longer necessary and there are more efficient and less-drastic means of accomplishing the mission.  If my guns started to deal damage again, and my shields and health could actually survive a bullet or two, I might decide to use them over wtfhax bladestorm/stacked snowglobes/BLIND BLIND BLIND SLEEP SLEEP SLEEP FINISHER FINISHER FINISHER.

So here's what you, as game devs, need to do.  Ask yourselves the question, "What are players SUPPOSED to do to defeat this content?"  And gear your changes towards THAT.  You need to make a hard decision as to what gear and what methods players are allowed to use, and which are exploitative and need to be either nerfed-out or compensated for.  The answer "Players aren't supposed to defeat this content" isn't an acceptable answer; it's a terrible GM that measures success in trashed character sheets, and likewise it's a terrible developer that measures success in Game Overs.

Finally, you need to look at rewards in the light of the effort required to get them.  If defeating a piece of content is supposed to be a difficult task and a momentous event when you and your cell succeeds, then the rewards should be commensurate.  The rewards need to be something immediately good and useful.  If you throw out player-trivializing content, and then say to those who beat it "Congratulations, now run it five hundred times more if you want a reasonable chance to get the actual good rewards from it" then they're going to look at you, scoff, and walk out.

This is how you make good gameplay.

Basically all I've wanted to say without the feeling like I'm being pushed out of the game because I'm a vet.

I was hoping all these recent nerfs would at least come with a "it's all going to come together in U19, trust us", but to have nothing, to just say we're trivializing content is a slap in the face. DE, you're telling me "I'm playing your game too much, that I'm putting in too many hours, that I've gotten too much content. That's what you're telling me. I don't know how to respond to that.

[bad4youLT]

3 hours ago, TheKurtiStryke said:

  Hide contents

i much prefer the new smart mag than the other walking-spam2-for-boring-nuke ;)

you kiding me ? mag is useless now , shield polorise was the only redeeming power she had , pull meh , crush meh , magnetize unrealable , its like seeing one of charecters getting killed in anime, the feels .

[bad4youLT]

9 hours ago, Harloq said:

 

 

rip mag , the feels

 

 

[Pyrolizer27]

8 hours ago, Sennera said:

Perhaps this isn't the best place to put it, but the introduction of a new community Mesa helm in 18.13.0 had me thinking:

Mesa's default helmet was blindfolded intentionally by the user (the ancient operator I suppose?) to add difficulty. Is there any chance we could get an alternate helmet with the blindfold removed? It'd be like how Valkyr's pre-experimentation body was released in response to curiosity ;D

^This sounds amazing

[HDynamicNation]

Now theres something that loads to 100% when valkyrs 4 is activated

[Kryztoval]

I have not been playing that long this game and even I feel cheated.

Making Excalibur's 4th ability's damage go down the further it goes makes no freaking sense.

Maybe, just maybe, I would consider it a good EDIT if you had buff the damage to closer enemies and nerfed the damage to far away enemies, but just making it fall after a distance is a complete and uber nerf of an arbitrary ability. Do you even take into consideration the weapon of choice or its mods on Excalibur? I have yet many hours to try things out.

What are those passives? So Loki can now second as a wall decoration, not impressed. What if loki turned invisble when not moving? That would have been a better use or a passive.

Now Valkyr walk out of its 4th power leaves her vulnerable to compensate for its invulnerable state, I have no opinion here but seems like a weird decision. How do you come up with those? Do you sit and watch people playing your game and go "Oh... they are doing this, everyone is doing this, let's screw it up!"?

You make me miss a game where developers actually made changes to abilities to change the way people played (and give them an advantage) rather than just making changes here and there. There has to be a balance amongst warframes, if your players can tell you what warframe is better suited for DPS and which one is better suited for Support and there is no possible way for them to use the warframe's abilities to their advantage and switch the nature of the warframe via weapons and mods then, I am sorry to tell you, you are making poor decisions on the changes for a warframe.

By the way, I did buy platinum just to help you guys out. and support you, but a little love and support for your users (and warframes) would be nice.

Post Script, you made me check the calendar to see if I had accidentally time traveled to April 1st when you announced that Oberon's passive was getting help from the environment. A passive that can only be used in a subset of tilesets is not deserved to be called a passive at all, it is more like a coincidence. Name one other passive that only work 10% of the games? Bad decisions.

 

Concerned farmer.. I mean... tenno.

[cipek81]

hello i have a problem pops up nonstop Nati more ports which I do 5 times I was doing an alert whose remains have not captured please help

[GeorgeKostis]

Now you have done it DE.

These nerfs are beyond disappointment.

So congratulations for killing Warframe.

I quit.

[WeltraumKater]

Still no fix for Nova prime with Visage skin :(

[FR_Duffrize]

In fact dev want we play frame as they want STOP imagine new feature !  nova speed next ner.."rework"

And 5% every 20min it's cool it's just 20 run => 400min

6h40 for a drop

4 drop = 30h non-stop but .... 30h we are all no-life no?

 

"you play trini bless / marage blind / ash bladestorm ... nobrain "  it's warframe not dark soul ! if i want use y brain I play strategic game

[-CdG-Zilchy]

DE it boils down to this. Stop lying to us and disrespecting paying customers.

Stop claiming to reduce the grind when you're increasing it.

Stop destroying frames that people main and love instead of fixing frames that aren't viable because at this rate you'll run out of frames.

Fix your broken enemy and damage scaling AND if you're going to make changes based on your future plans for damage scaling, hold off and release them together. Otherwise we simply won't bother playing until you finally bring out the big update and things are viable once more.

If you're not going to bother even listening or considering the feedback we give up our time to give, don't even have the option to do so because it's massively disrespectful to your customers.

Get a proper playtesting team together and learn about your own game at high levels of play. Currently your playtesting is a complete joke, saying in the devstream that you tested Trinity blessing solo just goes to show how little of your game you understand(try blessing an entire squad and note the difference).

Embrace the way that your customers WANT to play your game or we will take our money elsewhere and your wallet will get thinner. We play this way because we enjoy it, taking away our enjoyment or someone's favourite frame encourages them to find a new game to play.

And most of all, for the love of god stop hiding behind the excuse that you're "stilll in beta". I call complete BS on this, 3 years in this is just the weakest excuse imaginable, man up, admit your mistakes and listen to the players for suggestions in fixing them, since you clearly aren't capable of this yourselves.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Zilchy

[foxxess]

12 hours ago, NecromancerX69 said:

Chroma's Effigy after the update looks a bit light headed.

At least it should be immune to the Dread's decapitate effect.

You can't behead a head, isn't that right?