Why DE were right to nerf Prism, and why other mapwide disabling powers must be next

[izzatuw]

Just now, Fifield said:

I am the OP.  And why are you talking about Ember all of a sudden...  Never mind, not really interested.

Because you're defending nerfs in general and Ember's WOF is constantly under the nerf army's radar.

 

You not being interested in the topic means I got you in that regards. 

[Ghost_1302]

Fingers crossed that blade storm will be nerfed soon.

[Fifield]

Just now, izzatuw said:

Because you're defending nerfs in general and Ember's WOF is constantly under the nerf army's radar.

Instead of hallucinating what people think, why don't you ask?  You know, instead of wasting everyone's time and derailing a thread...

You're wrong on both accounts.  I don't think all nerfs are good.  And Ember is weak.  She needs a buff.

I don't even do level 30 content...

3 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

ou not being interested in the topic means I got you in that regards. 

No, it means that when someone spouts nonsense at me, I don't expect them to suddenly start saying something worth reading.  I was right.

[izzatuw]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

Instead of hallucinating what people think, why don't you ask?  You know, instead of wasting everyone's time and derailing a thread...

You're wrong on both accounts.  I don't think all nerfs are good.  And Ember is weak.  She needs a buff.

I don't even do level 30 content...

No, it means that when someone spouts nonsense at me, I don't expect them to suddenly start saying something worth reading.  I was right.

Ya know very well what I was implying before this but ya blatantly tried to reword it to make the argument work for you.

 

Fyi

I recall at least 5 Nerf Ember threads this year alone and guess what all of them had in common? All of them involved the OP complaining about WOFkilling enemies at level 15.

 

I don't mind most of the nerfs but DE sure likes to nerf us more and buff the enemies much as possible.

[Laidain]

11 hours ago, Warfoxzero said:

Has anyone tried to kill level 100 enemies without an OP weapon or ability to help cc? It's quite deadly. And it's not fun unloading many clips into 1 enemy, especially when there's many to kill.

I feel the powers need to be powerful and fun to use. Then balance them with equally inventive and tough enemies.

Well:

 

[Hellslinger]

Lol, these nerfs are pointless though since we still have Trinity forever making us durable and keeping our energy infinite and Banshee that takes care of the enemy scaling problem with resonance.

 

Let's not even mention 4 team corrosive projection with that drift mod that empowers auras.

[(PSN)AltimaotGates]

12 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This is becoming a very real concern. We are on our way to Destiny powers if we aren't careful, and those things are useless.

The reason people say those powers do nothing is because they want to just be the ace of the team and mow everything when they play a class.

 

That is the real problem of mitigating how powerful abilties are. People don't want to try and experiment, they want "reliability" (read: no thought) with quick results. For Destiny, Strikers are said to be bad at PvE, but I was always clearing things with my Striker, blinding rooms with flashbangs and punching holes through things. And heaven forbid Fist of Havoc doesn't clear entire waves of thickly shielded enemies, wear them down with a grenade or two and then do it, it works.

You want to know the real issue? People are just getting more finicky about team cohesion and working with others. I'll spam M Prime with my Nova only if I notice people aren't actually helping to protect the group from being overrun in survival missions and run off alone(which happens a lot), I much rather use antimatter drop, which doesn't get near as much love as M Prime despite being able to do hilarious CC and radiation proc. It would help if people grew past just their playstyle and thought on their feet.

 

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

14 hours ago, Fifield said:

DE have only just begun fixing the core gameplay.  More nerfs are inevitable.  Get used to it.

Blizzard did the same and had 12+ million players during it's height in 2010.

Why was it sooooo popular? Because it was the one time Blizzard made the game accessible to them and buffed them -- not nerf them into the ground (or worse, have it's director claim "L2P") -- to experience the full game.

They liked it, savored it and the normally awful grindy experience became even fun.

Then 4.0.1 came and the min-maxers took over and Blizzard doesn't even make player numbers available anymore (millions never came back to the game again).

If games are fun and players feel powerful, it's 1001 videos of this to express the sentiment (free PR)...

NOT videos like this that express the dismal state min-maxers can do to a game!!!

Moral: Be careful in what you wish for! WoW isn't the first or last game destroyed by "Git gud" mentalities (and the toxicity they can bring).

[Fifield]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Blizzard did the same and had 12+ million players during it's height in 2010.

It's also the year that F2P started to become the dominant funding model of games.  I suspect that had something to do with it.

[xRufus7x]

12 hours ago, ranks21 said:

the truth in all of this chaos is whenever players finds anything that will help them enjoy the game that was PROVIDED TO BE USED and is somewhat popular the outcome is so predictable from the same set of forum warriors to the reactions of the devs. now i'll hit back where it hurts the most and that's with my wallet and enough with the chit chat. you want my monies make the game enjoyable again i'd like to enjoy from time to time and not be a loudmouth freeloader as many who agrees with the ridiculousness.

no one is forcing anyone to use or not use a or b items its there in the game  not a hackable offense, not broken, not op as some are preaching its there put in place as the devs were fine with it at  said items  time of release.

what I despise is any or everything that will make me feel the urge to play or spend my money to support the devs are constantly being attacked by freeloaders whom not only never spend a dime on anything in the game but also have the biggest voice  for nerfs etc. what a world we live in..

 so should I  take the appropriate approach and speak with my wallet or suffer the disgusting plate of freeloders advocacy for nerfs.

Hello there, Grand master founder here that has bought every prime accessory pack. All of these nerfs were justified with the exception of the radial blind slide attack.

Also, this is a free to play game. Not spending money on it does not mean people aren't entitled to give feedback.

[mike167890]

cc abilities are defensive abilities for frames with low health armor and shields its a play style like a tank is a style. 

I want to give an example . my main frame is nova and i run no health or shields with rage and qt with speed the goal of my build is to avoid damage 1st when taking damage that means i need to prime because we are being outmatched ,and if that fails run to higher ground and use antimatter. this build is really fun to play for me its so easy to die and in my opinion it takes skill to master. rather than say a rhino or chroma or a frost who just stands there and shoots the notion that this is not cheese but cc frames are cheese is unfair. 

I think its cheesy when you have someone how spaming cc skills because they are lazy or unexperienced thats not what they are for  people priming at wave 1 and every wave after of a def mission as a example. 

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, Fifield said:

It's also the year that F2P started to become the dominant funding model of games.  I suspect that had something to do with it.

You don't give up a toon that you spent years gearing out for F2P (especially when subs are cheaper anyway in the long run). Too much time and effort to simply leave for the new shiny (that could bottom out in 6 months -- RIFT anyone???).

Players leave when the game isn't fun anymore and little value to them (whoever thought Archaeology was FUN, probably left Blizzard some time ago, too!!!).

Nerfs are never fun.

[Fifield]

2 minutes ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

You don't give up a toon that you spent years gearing out for F2P

Some might.  It only takes maybe 10% to shift from a growing playerbase into a shrinking one.

Secondly and most importantly, WoW would have lost a lot of new players who have no investment to F2P.

[-CM-Emptiness]

13 hours ago, ograzzt said:

The problem is not nerfing itself, problem is how they nerfed these abilities. Prism has terribly slow animation speed, it just won't work with LoS at all, because you'll be killed in front of the enemies instantly. Was animation speed buffed to compensate it? No.

Excalibur's radial blind on spin was never a problem, but still they added energy cost to it. Why? Was it OP or what? It wasn't at all. A lot of people used this spin attack for mobility and not for radial blind itself. They could just left radial blind on spin for channeling attacks only. But they didn't.

Mag was known for her good scaling in late game, they completely destroyed it. Yes, her 2 is now much better and 3 can be used to clear low-mid level enemies, but... 400 armor and shields stripping (with 100% energy strength), are you for real? Corrupted heavy gunner on lvl 135 has 13k+ armor, good luck with stripping all this. You'll only need 35 cast without modding power strength and 11 casts with maxed power strength.

Trinity's blessing was nerfed without thinking about the fact that missions like The Jordas Verdict exist. You physically can't be near Trinity if you are the part of Archwing team. Trinity can't even heal you in this case. They could at least wait until they make "medic archwing", but of course they didn't.

Affinity range on interception was nerfed, yet there are huge maps like Cerberus and former Viver (which previously was completey destroyed by DE, I think even if I'd blindly choosed the places for interception towers it still could be better that what they did to it). And now they removed affinity range multiplier for interceptions, good job, DE. Draco is relatively small map, it won't be so damaged as many other maps. Why did they do this? Just because. Let's not talk about Archwing interceptions, it will be even more horrible now to level our gear.

Despite all this nerf army is finally happy, I guess. Keep it up, guys, keep it up.

^ The only sensible point that has been brought up in this forum, nicely done :) I will support this argument.

Problem with DE is they only look on player-side balancing, yet at the same time release high-level content that accounts for the current, unbalanced system. As of now, frames that are viable for end-game are slowly losing their viability (or at least being significantly reduced). Remember that OP is a relative term, if reworked frames are downsized, other frames will appear to be OP, thus they will also be nerfed in turn. For instance, if mirage is 'balanced' now, abilities like invisibility will be next in line. Given that DE is under the impression that balance is warranted, they need to consider two things:

1. Enemy-side scaling. Things like one-hit kills might prove challenge-provoking in endless missions, and whilst the OP brought up a valid point on continually blinding enemies, there is also no challenge if it takes all your ammo to defeat a single enemy. In Defense and Survival, the only two endless mission types, success is based not on blinding, but killing, which warrants the question of concepts like armor-scaling and the need for four corrosive projection auras in squad builds. Looking at other high-level content, namely raids and sorties, the level benchmarks are set at around 70-80 on average, enough for enemies to one-hit kill and to provide a challenge to players inclusive of their offensive, defensive and support frames. We have the various eximus effects e.g. knockdown, toxin, energy leech and slow, as well, which leads to builds incorporating a myriad of CC, Defense, Damage and Support builds, given the limitations of four-man squads. With the current change, this is made much less effective, which makes daily participation of sorties somewhat more of a hassle than a challenging and rewarding experience. 

2. Order of 'balance'. DE is simply, doing things in the wrong order. I am referring to the changes to the current bless. Before, bless was simply an ability that granted invulnerability without the need for self-damage. Now, it makes sense to change it to a system like damage reduction. But, taking this a step further and limiting that reduction itself is simply put, a terrible idea. In its current state, bless is less effective the larger the squad, which works against the idea of raids being open to up to 8 players in a session, and encourages solo play among trinity bless builds. Now, I am not saying this is bad, but it is indeed way too soon to be implemented. We have, as the quoted poster emphasized, Jordas Verdict, and its soon to be realized Nightmare mode, which already proves a challenge with its mechanisms, mapping and swarm of enemies. This content, especially the last stage, is build around the premise of bless being a skill with unlimited range and effective damage reduction. If a balance is required, DE should begin with reworking offensive frames, possibly followed by support frames and finally, implementing both defensive frame reworks AND enemy reworks. The idea being, it is inherently a step-by-step process of balance, hence if we lose offensive or supportive abilities, our defensive abilities ensure our survival, and damage can be compensated with weaponry. With these recent events, our survivability is anything but viable, and it is simply a contest of who can kill who quicker, which obviously is a lost game due to enemy-scaling.  

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

Just now, Fifield said:

Some might.  It only takes maybe 10% to shift from a growing playerbase into a shrinking one.

Secondly and most importantly, WoW would have lost a lot of new players who have no investment to F2P.

The shift was 50% 12+ million to below 6 million in 2 years. It's probably well below 6 million now, especially when combined realms can't get enough raiders to raid. Sis is pet battling now as raids are buy the title or no one will get past heroic (despite she has the most kills on the realm, too).

Again, you do not give up all those accomplishments to chase "the new thing". You give up games like WoW when the direction goes too far one way, that it's simply not fun to the players anymore.

Those players never came back ... and F2P didn't take them (they're playing on those private servers that are expansion related, instead. Nost was only the biggest), because...

Nerfs can be good when they fix overall problems to game play. But nerfs so bad (like in Cata), gamers leave by the millions. They don't run to F2P, they go find questionable ways to play the way they miss ... and it's more than nostalgia calling.

[Morndawn]

15 hours ago, Fifield said:

A lot of people think enemy scaling is a big problem.  They're wrong.

You want to know why high damage/EHP enemies are in the game?  Players demanded it because the game was too goddamn easy.  It still is.
Level 100 enemies aren't hard if you can stop them ever firing at you.  They're not even bullet sponges at that level.

An excerpt from my Gimpframe diary:

DE have only just begun fixing the core gameplay.  More nerfs are inevitable.  Get used to it.

Edit:  To everyone trying to argue with me:  Yes, I get that you're angry, and I wrote this thread so that you could flame me instead of DE.  However, are you saying the game was better when Mirage could permanently disable every enemy on the map the entire mission?

I think the scaling is bad, there is no system in difficulty and nerfing warframes will make stop the new players and casual players to play this game. Which is something you don't care about or you don't wish the best for DE, but that is definitely something what DE should think about if they don't want to end this game and what I understood - their dream game...

DE have too simple missions, that should be developed earlier already and they should start nerfing after they will know what kind of missions in which difficulty they will have.

I really wish they would stop listening to someone like you.

[RagDollRat]

2 hours ago, izzatuw said:

Because you're defending nerfs in general and Ember's WOF is constantly under the nerf army's radar.

 

You not being interested in the topic means I got you in that regards. 

ive seen like 1 ember in months, I assume she has been nerfed into a grave? (sold my ember like a year ago and refuse to make a new one unless its prime)

[fatpig84]

The exp nerf hurt all other interception maps except Draco.
That is quite hilarious now that I think about it :P

Never mind the space maps.
Good luck leveling AW gear.

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 minute ago, fatpig84 said:

The exp nerf hurt all other interception maps except Draco.
That is quite hilarious now that I think about it :P

Ah........

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

20 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Enemy cheese needs to stop, too. If our ability to lick down whole maps is removed, fine. You NEED at that point to drive the ability of the enemy to lock us down as well.

This means no more knockdown spam or grappling hook circus. And no more energy draining or toxic auras, since our powers won't be as powerful.

Allow me to explain. Enemy cheese will never stop. The idea is to make most endgame missions extremely difficult, tedious and not fun. So that rewards from them sell for 500+ platinum on trade channel. Nezha too cheap?  Wait until 20-25 sorties per month are actually unplayable and the rest are nigh impossible for 95% of playerbase. 

I myself mostly enjoy killing entire horde of enemies instantly, Warframe is not the only game providing that. Any Dynasty Warriors style game has it.

[BlackCoMerc]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Lord_Gremlin said:

Allow me to explain. Enemy cheese will never stop. The idea is to make most endgame missions extremely difficult, tedious and not fun. So that rewards from them sell for 500+ platinum on trade channel. Nezha too cheap?  Wait until 20-25 sorties per month are actually unplayable and the rest are nigh impossible for 95% of playerbase. 

I myself mostly enjoy killing entire horde of enemies instantly, Warframe is not the only game providing that. Any Dynasty Warriors style game has it.

That's...a good point. Didn't think about that but it makes sense. Why else would late he be so incredibly annoying?

[magusat999]

17 hours ago, Slaviar said:

I must yet see veteran who left because game was too easy. But I know quite a few who stopped playing because they got tired of nerfs and grind

 

17 hours ago, BBOTAA said:

Now this I've seen too.
Altough seems like the nerf patrol knows what's best for the game and whats best to keep the players engaged on the grindfest.
Nothing like a good choice of priorities.

 

17 hours ago, Fifield said:

Why do you think you would see anything?  My whole clan left for this reason last year.

Well, I've been playing for three years and I wouldn't consider the game too easy (because they keep nerfing the heck out of everything, so how can it be too easy?). I don't find the game boring. My issue is with the rampant, blind-hammer nerfing - and I have stopped playing and paying at least 4 times because of NERFING, never because the game got boring. Every nerf is like getting the middle finger to my effort and my wallet - especially because the nerfs come without proper compensation - which wouldn't cost DE a cent - and without co-balancing the content. It's not a vicious circle, it is a downward spiral because every change is not balanced with an action of equality (such as nerf warframe, nerf enemy scaling to match). NO, it's completely one sided -  which means it keeps the see-saw on the ground, just making the game experience irritating, and that is not fun.

[magusat999]

8 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Blizzard did the same and had 12+ million players during it's height in 2010.

Why was it sooooo popular? Because it was the one time Blizzard made the game accessible to them and buffed them -- not nerf them into the ground (or worse, have it's director claim "L2P") -- to experience the full game.

They liked it, savored it and the normally awful grindy experience became even fun.

Then 4.0.1 came and the min-maxers took over and Blizzard doesn't even make player numbers available anymore (millions never came back to the game again).

If games are fun and players feel powerful, it's 1001 videos of this to express the sentiment (free PR)...

NOT videos like this that express the dismal state min-maxers can do to a game!!!

Moral: Be careful in what you wish for! WoW isn't the first or last game destroyed by "Git gud" mentalities (and the toxicity they can bring).

I just want to know what the videos are supposed to show us - I agree with your point but those videos don't seem to express anything except just showing a commercial of the games...

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

1 hour ago, magusat999 said:

I just want to know what the videos are supposed to show us - I agree with your point but those videos don't seem to express anything except just showing a commercial of the games...

Those who play/ed would.

ICC was the first WoW raid that was accessible to everyone (before then 10% ever saw end-game and the lore). To ensure everyone can could see the downfall of the Lich King ending Blizzard put in a 30% raid buff (which was almost blocked in the video by all the addons to show! lol). The 4th encounter was even nicknamed "loot ship" as it was designed to offer the gear to fight Saurfang (who's death opens up the main halls of ICC. He was a DPS/HPS gate boss, because if a raid couldn't down Saurfang they couldn't down/heal anything further).

It was the first time WoW players could get tier-gear as easily as just PuGGing, because Blizzard bended over backwards to buff and offer gear so they could participate. Even RNG and losing on loot rolls, they offered tokens to get the missing gear.

4.0.1 came the min-maxers upset their "uberness" was bypassed by the "peons" -- "took over" the forums and applauded everything about Cata when it suited them, because it was "challenging". Everything included to the most HATED (as it's boring as hell) side activity in the game ... Archaeology (yep, "shiny piece of crap").

See going from being powerful straight into the hell of Cata -- and the awful energy scarcity --  people just quit. Blizzard went 180 and full tilt CHALLENGE MODE on the players, and the players voted with their wallet.

This is how losing 6 million players in a game looks like (Jan 2010 to Jan 2011)...

That happens when people ask for "challenge" and the game becomes so toxic with players trying to prove something. Prove they can raid and not need "welfare epics". Prove they were better than "EZ mode" Holy Paladins. Prove they're PvP gods. Prove SOMETHING, as they weren't "special" during WotLK (as 90% finally got to even participate).

The min-maxers got what they wanted their "challenge". The game tanked (losing over half the players) and the rest is history. WoW never recovered.

It's one thing to ask for personal challenges, it's another watching a mob destroy the game all so they can claim they're "special".

(BTW, I don't "advertise" WoW. I advertise Blizzard's mistakes, because I don't want to see another game destroyed like that. It was a b-a-d time).

[DeadlyPeanutt]

On 5/28/2016 at 9:57 AM, Fifield said:

A lot of people think enemy scaling is a big problem.  They're wrong.

You want to know why high damage/EHP enemies are in the game?  Players demanded it because the game was too goddamn easy.  It still is.
Level 100 enemies aren't hard if you can stop them ever firing at you.  They're not even bullet sponges at that level.

DE have only just begun fixing the core gameplay.  More nerfs are inevitable.  Get used to it.

Edit:  To everyone trying to argue with me:  Yes, I get that you're angry, and I wrote this thread so that you could flame me instead of DE.  However, are you saying the game was better when Mirage could permanently disable every enemy on the map the entire mission?

You're wrong.

Enemy scaling IS the problem.  Playing the same bots with extreme pools of health and extremely high OSK damage is not fun.  Fun is why we play games.  

Many players find powerful frames and weapons to be fun to play.  If you don't want to play frames that have powerful abilities, you don't have to play those frames (or weapons... when you get around to asking for weapon nerfs also).

A game that has insanely powerful bots and frames/weapons that have been severely nerfed is not fun.  We don't have to play games that aren't fun.  There are too many other games out there to play. 

Games that SELL or encourage players to grind/craft powerful weapons and frames, then nerf them severely has a business problem.  Players quit, leaving bad reviews and negative threads on steam and other sites.  Games that get a bad rep don't prosper.   

Selling a powerful frame/weapon, then severely nerfing them is considered a dishonest business practice by many players. 

Get used to massive nerfs of the most fun weapons and frames in the game? No, i don't have to.  I can always play one of the 10 thousand other games that are out there. 

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt