Buff The Kraken, Or Nerf The Kunai

[fatfree]

how far you want, there have not many target in WF farer than 44 m, and i am very sure i can hit a 100M target with kunai, Projectile falls but always drop on the same point, just like a real world sniper, but throw a knife should not have this "accuracy"

 

http://youtu.be/pFwS3SKZ6W0

 

Yet you still missed a shot (hmm, wonder if it had anything to do with the slow projectile speed I mentioned), and yes, there are way farther targets, mostly on the Grineer ships, but some as well on the Corpus ships, you just didn't try very hard to look for a better spot.

 

Oh, and look, you're using level 30 Kunai against level 13 enemies, that's fair. =/

Edited June 16, 2013 by fatfree

[cary2010haha]

Yet you still missed a shot (hmm, wonder if it had anything to do with the slow projectile speed I mentioned), and yes, there are way farther targets, mostly on the Grineer ships, but some as well on the Corpus ships, you just didn't try very hard to look for a better spot.

 

Oh, and look, you're using level 30 Kunai against level 13 enemies, that's fair. =/

it's just a "accuracy" test, and the moa is not the target, if it's the tatget it dies when frist shoot on it(auto fire)

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Kraken requires Mastery level 0. Kunai requires Mastery level 2.

 

This^^

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/65484-rather-than-nerfing-a-weapon-mastery/

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Aggh]

I've got a better idea. How's about you prove that it is? 'Cuz Kunai are out DPS'd by a whole lot of secondaries (Twin vipers, afuris, aklato, akbolto, probably dual bronco though I've not crunched the numbers on that one), they don't have the range or accuracy of a lex or even a kraken, and they take considerably more skill to use effectively than any other secondary weapon in the game.

I mean, let's look at the actual numbers here for a sec, courtesy of the wiki:

148.5 DPS for kunai, assuming base stats and all shots hit.

280 for afuris assuming the same.

250 for akbolto. With the bolts being faster and not having drop over distance. The only issue is that you'll break your finger trying to achieve that DPS without macros, but that's easily solved by simply making all the semi-auto guns continue firing when you hold down the trigger ala the kunai. Wouldn't affect the DPS any, just save some innocent digits, and it's a much better option than nerfing an already niche weapon that takes skill to use so that it sucks but still takes skill to use.

199.2 for the aklato. ~160 for the single lato. Oh snapple, even the starter gun has more DPS than the kunai! And it's hitscan! Flarghbl OP! Nerf Lato! Nerf it to the ground!

400 for twin vipers. (Single viper still has a very respectable 230, so even that's better than the kunai in terms of straight up DPS.)

But wait, I can hear you ask. What about the kunai's high per hit damage? Wouldn't that mean it'd get proportionally more benefit from hornet strike than these machine pistols? Why yes, that's correct. But you know what gets even more benefit from hornet strike than the kunai? The lex. And you know what the kunai gets less benefit from than machine pistols? M-m-multishot! And, of course, ROF mods.

So yeah. Sounds like this "kunai is superior to everything else" notion is completely wrong.

DPS is the most meaningless stat in the game. Damage and ammo economy are much more important in the long run, especially for against higher level mobs.

 

 

This^^

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/65484-rather-than-nerfing-a-weapon-mastery/

 

All you have to do to get to rank 2 is level a warframe to level 30, a weapon to level 30, and another weapon to level 10.  You could make it a rank 10 weapon and it would still be a little too good.  Rank is just an indication of how long you've played, it's meaningless to weapon balance.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Aggh

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

All you have to do to get to rank 2 is level a warframe to level 30, a weapon to level 30, and another weapon to level 10.  You could make it a rank 10 weapon and it would still be a little too good.  Rank is just an indication of how long you've played, it's meaningless to weapon balance.

 

Rank 10 probably wouldn't be too low (It's probably too high. I leveled every frame except Nyx, normal Frost and Vauban and I'm still only rank 7).

 

Rank is an indication of how many weapons and frames you have actually used since the same items don't give you Mastery points if you sell them. This means a player with a higher rank has a larger perspective on the items in the game since he/she has at least used more of them for some time (from unranked to lvl 30).

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Aggh]

Rank 10 probably wouldn't be too low (It's probably too high. I leveled every frame except Nyx, normal Frost and Vauban and I'm still only rank 7).

 

Rank is an indication of how many weapons and frames you have actually used since the same items don't give you Mastery points if you sell them. This means a player with a higher rank has a larger perspective on the items in the game since he/she has at least used more of them for some time (from unranked to lvl 30).

Ie it's a meaningless stat that has no affect on balance.  I gave rank 10 as an example.  It won't matter what rank you lock something behind, if it's OP, it's OP.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Ie it's a meaningless stat that has no affect on balance.  I gave rank 10 as an example.  It won't matter what rank you lock something behind, if it's OP, it's OP.

 

It's "OP" when you compare it to other weapons which are relatively "UP".

 

When you give it an appropriate rank requirement, its "OP" is now justified.

 

It is like how the lvl 50 sword you get is going to be better than / "OP" compared to the lvl 20 sword you get in any regular RPG.

 

 

At the same time, "OP" and "UP" can also be the result of comparison with enemies. Regarding that, I shall quote myself:

 

 

Whether something is easy or hard is decided through comparison.

 

By balancing our frames and weapons by using current enemies, which do not require any strategy to kill, as comparison,

 

we are making it more difficult but not more challenging to deal with these easy enemies.

 

Effectively, we have increased the enemies health or survivability and dragged the fight's duration longer.

 

The dominant strategy still is a set supercharged modded weapons modded for high damage output and a supercharged frame modded for high damage.

 

The harder content people should be asking for isn't a boost to existing enemies' stats (things like "let's have a lvl 200 enemies missions") but rather improvements to the AI and mechanics of the current existing enemies.

 

Once that is done then we can start looking at what is OP and what is not.

 

If there were an enemy that has the ability to debuff players and remove whatever buffs they had on them, Iron Skin wouldn't have needed to be nerfed and Rhino Players will eventually know to fear it and kill it as priority.

 

If there were an enemy that takes highly reduced damage and can pick up players and throw them, immediately putting a stop to their spells, Banshee's immunity during sound quake wouldn't need to be removed. Banshee players would have to first be certain that this enemy is not around before they use their spell unless they want to waste it before it does it full impact.

 

 

 

So, did the enemies become more challenging after the current balances were made or have they become more difficult but still making us do the same (outlast them with redirection, vitality and steel fiber + outdamage them with damage mods) strategy?

 

If they are, why bother to introduce any more new enemies or improve on their AI?

 

 

 

To make it easier to understand:

 

Current Situation:

 

Country A (Us): We have nukes, rocket launchers and machine guns.

 

Country B (Them): We only have pistols.

 

Country A (Us): This is not challenging, let's make our weapons like their pistols. Yeah!!

 

Future Inhabitants of Country A: Wow. we fight pistols with pistols that look like machine guns and nukes. LAME....

 

 

What should be done:

 

Country A (Us): We have nukes, rocket launchers and machine guns.

 

Country B (Them): We only have pistols.

 

Country A (Us): This is not challenging, we should give them something that can counter our weapons. hey, how about a laser cannon that can detonate our nukes before they hit if we are not careful?

 

Future Inhabitants of Country A (SITUATION 1): Wow. The enemies' tough and we even got nukes. We need to find a way to beat them.

 

Future Inhabitants of Country A (SITUATION 2): The enemies still sucks after we gave them ways to counter us? Hmm..maybe we should look into balancing the field since we are out of ideas on how they can counter us.

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Aggh]

It's "OP" when you compare it to other weapons which are relatively "UP".

 

When you give it an appropriate rank requirement, its "OP" is now justified.

 

It is like how the lvl 50 sword you get is going to be better than / "OP" compared to the lvl 20 sword you get in any regular RPG.

 

 

At the same time, "OP" and "UP" can also be the result of comparison with enemies. Regarding that, I shall quote myself:

Take this nonsense back to your silly thread and keep it there.  Warframe doesn't have anywhere near the length or depth of progression to justify that.  And it's nothing like a level 50 sword vs a level 20 sword.  Weapons already have levels in this game for that anyways.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Aggh

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Take this nonsense back to your silly thread and keep it there.  Warframe doesn't have anywhere near the length or depth of progression to justify that.  And it's nothing like a level 50 sword vs a level 20 sword.  Weapons already have levels in this game for that anyways.

 

That thread isn't mine actually. I simply agree with its owner.

 

Warframe is currently in Beta.

 

You claim that "Warframe doesn't have anywhere near the length or depth of progression to justify that."

 

So my question to you is when do you think it would be a good time to add length or depth of progression to the game? After Beta?

 

 

 

Yes, weapons already have levels. Thus, the truth is I'm not even supporting a suggestion. It has already been implemented, just not fully.

 

There are around 5 levels now, the rank 0/1, the rank 2 (eg. kunai), the rank 3 (eg. gorgon), the rank 4 (eg. hek), the rank 7 (eg. supra).

 

However, some of the weapons at the higher ranks still sucks compared to the lower ranks and vice versa.

 

That is why the suggestion is to move around some weapons so that they are appropriate to their ranks in terms of effectiveness is made.

 

The "OP" or rather better weapons will thus be given higher rank requirements, justifying their effectiveness and the "UP" or lousier weapons will then be given lower rank requirements, justifying their relative lousiness when compared to the better weapons.

 

This means balancing of only some weapons needs to be done to ensure there is an adequate variety of weapons for each rank of players to choose from and will also thus motivate players to buy or craft more weapons and frames (since they give 2x exp of weapons) to get the better weapons by ranking up.

 

In essence, the number of candidates for balancing is reduced.

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Aggh]

That thread isn't mine actually. I simply agree with its OP.

 

Warframe is currently in Beta.

 

You claim that "Warframe doesn't have anywhere near the length or depth of progression to justify that."

 

So my question to you is when do you think it would be a good time to add length or depth of progression to the game? After Beta?

 

Yes, weapons already have levels. Thus, the truth is I'm not even supporting a suggestion. It has already been implemented, just not properly.

 

There are around 5 levels now, the rank 0/1, the rank 2 (eg. kunai), the rank 3 (eg. gorgon), the rank 4 (eg. hek), the rank 7 (eg. supra).

 

However, some of the weapons at the higher ranks still sucks compared to the lower ranks and vice versa.

 

That is why the suggestion is to move around some weapons so that they are appropriate to their ranks in terms of effectiveness is made.

The game doesn't need the depth of progression of an rpg.  It's a shooter and any OP weapon will always be OP unless they decide to make some major changes to the core mechanics of the game.  All you're suggesting is hiding poor game balance behind the unlock system.

[Trucider]

DPS is the most meaningless stat in the game. Damage and ammo economy are much more important in the long run, especially for against higher level mobs.

 

Twin Vipers will destroy any boss much faster than the Kunai.  Yes, Twin Vipers burn through all of the ammo in a matter of a few seconds, but that is resolved with pistol ammo refills.

 

 

The game doesn't need the depth of progression of an rpg.  It's a shooter and any OP weapon will always be OP unless they decide to make some major changes to the core mechanics of the game.  All you're suggesting is hiding poor game balance behind the unlock system.

Please elaborate on this "hiding poor game balance behind the unlock system".  Because hey, it doesn't matter who has access to the more powerful weapons first easily (hence the Mastery level locks), so let's give Hek a Mastery rank 2. Doesn't matter, right?

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

The game doesn't need the depth of progression of an rpg.  It's a shooter and any OP weapon will always be OP unless they decide to make some major changes to the core mechanics of the game.  All you're suggesting is hiding poor game balance behind the unlock system.

 

 

It's "OP" when you compare it to other weapons which are relatively "UP".

 

At the same time, "OP" and "UP" can also be the result of comparison with enemies. Regarding that, I shall quote myself:

Whether something is easy or hard is decided through comparison.

 

By balancing our frames and weapons by using current enemies, which do not require any strategy to kill, as comparison,

 

we are making it more difficult but not more challenging to deal with these easy enemies.

 

Effectively, we have increased the enemies health or survivability and dragged the fight's duration longer.

 

The dominant strategy still is a set supercharged modded weapons modded for high damage output and a supercharged frame modded for high damage.

 

The harder content people should be asking for isn't a boost to existing enemies' stats (things like "let's have a lvl 200 enemies missions") but rather improvements to the AI and mechanics of the current existing enemies.

 

Once that is done then we can start looking at what is OP and what is not.

 

 

 

I'm not saying don't balance ever. I'm saying put the rank-requirement system in place, improve the enemies then do the appropriate balancing.

 

 

 

The game is a coop shooter. In the first place, the enemy you use your guns on are the Grineers, Corpus and Infested.

 

If you find your weapons too OP, it could very well be the sign of a UP enemy.

 

The balancing should be based against the weapons and "frames" of the enemy in the first place.

 

Why nobody cares about improving the enemy first is beyond me.

 

 

 

 

Before someone comes in and say buffing enemy will make them too tedious to kill and drag out the fights,

 

Creating a challenging enemy does not require the enemy to have high survivability at all.

 

Look at Lech Krill, just the first phase only, you can have the highest DPS weapon but still can't damage him if you don't have the skill to aim and shoot him at his weakspot on the back and then trick him into freezing himself.

 

Krill is by far the ONLY enemy that has had an improvement via improvement in mechanics and maybe a little AI (actually not much AI, he seems to still be somewhat dumb - eg. shooting at the Snowglobe a Frost pulls out for a pretty long time and not just charging in to score a hammer hit as soon as he realizes shooting just doesn't work).

 

The Stalker is also an interesting enemy since Tenno powers don't work against him so you can mod your frame to be the highest DPS in terms of skills (spells) and still lose if your gun play skills are just bad.

 

However, he isn't really a good example though since he is just your regular bullet sponge so "modding out your weapons to have the highest possible DPS and modding your frames to have the highest survivability possible" will still means you beat him.

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Aggh]

Twin Vipers will destroy any boss much faster than the Kunai.  Yes, Twin Vipers burn through all of the ammo in a matter of a few seconds, but that is resolved with pistol ammo refills.

 

Who cares?  Kunai will kill that boss pretty quick anyways.  Have fun burning through those ammo refills in late waves during endless defense, especially since you don't have any armor ignore on those vipers.

 

Please elaborate on this "hiding poor game balance behind the unlock system".  Because hey, it doesn't matter who has access to the more powerful weapons first easily (hence the Mastery level locks), so let's give Hek a Mastery rank 2. Doesn't matter, right?

 

For game balance?  No, it doesn't matter at all.  It matters for progression.  Ie people work towards rank 4 because because they want a longer range shot gun that's better for mobs than vs bosses, not because they want an OP gun.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Aggh

[Hatr]

Noone uses Kraken not because it's not powerful but because it looks ugly. 

I use it, potatoed and 2 formas!

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

For game balance?  No, it doesn't matter at all.  It matters for progression.  Ie people work towards rank 4 because because they want a longer range shot gun that's better for mobs than vs bosses, not because they want an OP gun.

 

Why would someone want to "progress" by leveling loads of weapons and frames to get something that is not better than what they already have?

 

For instance, it wasn't easy or quick or even cheap for me (since I bought slots) to craft/buy and level up 12 frames and quite a number of weapons just so I can rank up to 7 to get the Supra which I heard is good.

 

Why go through all that if Supra isn't any better than a non-mastery locked weapon?

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[cary2010haha]

Instead of nerfing every goddamn thing, how about we buff all of the enemies? 

they buffed already, level 400 grineer already have 99% damage reduce, makes AP weapon already op even only got 50% base damage than a normal dmaage secondary.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

they buffed already, level 400 grineer already have 99% damage reduce, makes AP weapon already op even only got 50% base damage than a normal dmaage secondary.

 

 

They should have buffed them the same way they had buffed Lech Krill, in terms of AI and mechanics, not HP, shields or armor. That's just making bullet sponges, not actual buffing.

 

Creating a challenging enemy does not require the enemy to have high survivability at all.

 

Look at Lech Krill, just the first phase only, you can have the highest DPS weapon but still can't damage him if you don't have the skill to aim and shoot him at his weakspot on the back and then trick him into freezing himself.

 

Krill is by far the ONLY enemy that has had an improvement via improvement in mechanics and maybe a little AI (actually not much AI, he seems to still be somewhat dumb - eg. shooting at the Snowglobe a Frost pulls out for a pretty long time and not just charging in to score a hammer hit as soon as he realizes shooting just doesn't work).

 

The Stalker is also an interesting enemy since Tenno powers don't work against him so you can mod your frame to be the highest DPS in terms of skills (spells) and still lose if your gun play skills are just bad.

 

However, he isn't really a good example though since he is just your regular bullet sponge so "modding out your weapons to have the highest possible DPS and modding your frames to have the highest survivability possible" will still means you beat him.

Edited June 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Sni7ch]

they buffed already, level 400 grineer already have 99% damage reduce, makes AP weapon already op even only got 50% base damage than a normal dmaage secondary.

Level 400 Grineer? Highest level is 100 last time I checked... So I would like some proof. :)

[Aggh]

Why would someone want to "progress" by leveling loads of weapons and frames to get something that is not better than what they already have?

 

For instance, it wasn't easy or quick or even cheap for me (since I bought slots) to craft/buy and level up 12 frames and quite a number of weapons just so I can rank up to 7 to get the Supra which I heard is good.

 

Why go through all that if Supra isn't any better than a non-mastery locked weapon?

 

Because they want something different from what they already have.  Straight upgrades are easy.  The best games offer you different play styles and functionality as you progress.  This gives all content more consistent replay value and doesn't encourage people to just completely abandon an item once they've gotten something new.  This is actually important for DE's current business model since people can pile in a decent amount of time and money into weapons between forma, slots and potatoes.

 

 

 

Level 400 Grineer? Highest level is 100 last time I checked... So I would like some proof. :)

Endless defense.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Aggh

[Sni7ch]

Endless defense.

 

Oh thank you. I forgot about endless defense. 

[Ced23Ric]

Gentletenno, you give me headaches.

 

You know what I love? Reading 6 pages of back-and-forth based on personal taste and the urge to defend a preference in face of simple numerical stats that equalize discussions. It does not matter what "you", i.e. the individual players, feels about this and that weapon, as the metrics are recorded from all of us. Which weapon does what in what timeframe? All logged and available for dissection.

 

At the end of the day, the Kunai/Despair are a new weapon type that has been added recently and also watched over some time, to the effect that DE is aware how the two are currently highly favoured and murder their way towards the peak of the kill charts. For obvious reasons. When the Boltor came and wrecked the other weapons, it was amended.

 

It'll happen, one way or another, to the Kunai/Despair just the same.

 

Now try to stay civil, and if your debate opponent starts to spin in circles, don't spin with him, leave him. Report insults, we'll handle it.

 

Thread cleaned up.

[Datsher]

Kunais don't need a nerf, maybe if you can kill a lvl 100 infested with four or five shots, but not for people who are farming to get a Hornet Strike instead of 1000 Nyx Mind Controlls, not for people who don't want to get raped on high lvl planets, not for people who want to kill with style (bow, kunai and scythes) and just want to play with it because it's not a piece of trash like akbolto, KRAKEN and other stuff.

 

 

What's why I think they should buff stuff (ether daggers for example) instead of nerfing. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You are taking the dps numbers completely out of context here.  I'm not trying to be pro nerf / buff for the kunai, but if you are going to cite numbers, you need to have some context.  400 burst dps is a pretty meaningless number given how often you'll have to reload vs high level ancients etc.

What context is there to have, exactly? It shouldn't strictly matter what the target is, provided that it's the same target for each comparison.

Like, yeah, viper needs to reload pretty much after one second. It also reloads almost as fast as the kunai. It's not as ammo efficient as the kunai, yeah. But for raw damage in a given window, pretty much nothing beats it.

 

The fact that kunai ignore armor and are fully auto mean they are basically incomparable to any other seconday (no other secondary is fully auto and fully utilizing semi auto dps with how semi's function in this game... yeah...)

It'd be real nice if you guys who said this explained how. Considering how the boltor is full auto and armor ignore yet isn't wildly out of whack with other primaries. Simply having armor ignore + automatic fire isn't a gateway to OP.

 

DPS is the most meaningless stat in the game. Damage and ammo economy are much more important in the long run, especially for against higher level mobs.

In which case Lex trumps all. It has nearly twice the damage of a kunai and thus has superior ammo economy and benefits more from hornet strike.

 

Who cares? Kunai will kill that boss pretty quick anyways. Have fun burning through those ammo refills in late waves during endless defense, especially since you don't have any armor ignore on those vipers.

In late waves during endless defense, enemies have so much HP that pretty much every ranged weapon is worthless regardless of armor. Even top tier ones like the Hek. It's basically 'go ult and charged melee or go home.'

Edited June 17, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Aggh]

 

What context is there to have, exactly? It shouldn't strictly matter what the target is, provided that it's the same target for each comparison.

Like, yeah, viper needs to reload pretty much after one second. It also reloads almost as fast as the kunai. It's not as ammo efficient as the kunai, yeah. But for raw damage in a given window, pretty much nothing beats it.

 

It'd be real nice if you guys who said this explained how. Considering how the boltor is full auto and armor ignore yet isn't wildly out of whack with other primaries. Simply having armor ignore + automatic fire isn't a gateway to OP.

 

In which case Lex trumps all. It has nearly twice the damage of a kunai and thus has superior ammo economy and benefits more from hornet strike.

 

In late waves during endless defense, enemies have so much HP that pretty much every ranged weapon is worthless regardless of armor. Even top tier ones like the Hek. It's basically 'go ult and charged melee or go home.'

Lex has only a bit more than half the magazine capacity of the kunai and doesn't have armor ignore. Edited June 17, 2013 by Aggh

[--GOOLOO_GOOLOO_GOOLOO--]

If only I could break this thread.