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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

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16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are less than 24 hours into the release of 18.13.0 at the time of this thread, and we're already breaking forum records

You killed couple of frames and people are telling their oppinion about this and making suggestions of how to fix it. Of course you'll have forum activity growth jump.

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15 minutes ago, Dragonofdarkness13 said:

Right but what's your Duration ?
I was running a Negative Duration and Even with Efficiency at 175 , By the time that counter hit 30% I was out of energy

179% dur, those 2 eff, mods and as much strenght as i could fit with the spare slots

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12 hours ago, LilyLincesa said:

Well, a lot of things are working well, there are just things that aren't. Mag's abilities work for the most part, and Volt's function as advertised for the most part as well, with, as far as I can see, only two things that really need fixing, and both of those are on his ult. So,yes, fixes are very much so needed, but they aren't completely busted to the point of unplayability. 

 

Let's see after a while of tests

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1 minute ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

179% dur, those 2 eff, mods and as much strenght as i could fit with the spare slots

That's why you didn't notice the difference , toggle powers have their drain affected by both Efficiency and Duration 

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fix the end game armor scaling and endless grinding of prime parts/resource

this is the reasons why players use cheesy tactics 

fix all cheesy tactics won't solve the problems, only leads to player's rage and find more cheesy tactics 

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People get attached to certain frames for all sorts of reasons and feeling powerful is one of them for many. But one of the reasons people are so very angry is that they feel slighted by the changes and how they were done. There are serious issues with Sortie level NPC's power, armor, and health scaling, not to mention the fact that at that level many can 1 shot tenno. Not a change to them in sight and yet here we are talking about making the content "challenging". If you cannot make the content challenging with level 75+ NPC bullet sponges then maybe its your approach that needs to change?

Edited by Frodric
Added an "are" and then a comma
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Well it's really nice to see that developer acknowledges such things. But it doesn't change the fact that it was quite a bad update. You put too many things into one update and certainly didn't work enough on them. I hope it won't continue that way, it's not just a playground for your "experimentation"

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@[DE]Rebecca  Finally, thank you for acknowledging enemy scaling,  After Update 18.13 i think its necessary!! Yes, nerfing certain abilities is fine cuz they were hindering engaging gameplay .I agree totally! But some frames like trinity are the backbone of endless missions ( esp in high lvl void enemies / raids etc.). And the community has worked so hard to get the right build. So many hours and forma's spent on optimizing the weapon and the frame . It would in everyone's interest If u revert back the nerf on trinity. Seriously I mean if u wanna rework trinity that much why not look into well of life ability?Im sure that could use some rework. Again, im okay with the range on trinity's bless not being infinite. Im talking about the 99% damage reduction nerf. Moreover please have a look at volt's speed buff rework, it s lot of trouble to your teammates if volt is behind them. Please make it an opt-out procedure instead of opt-in. Its not helping anyone out at the moment to complete missions fast and is not utilizing the frames abilities. Now, mag is not OP against corpus anymore, im okay with that cause shes more balanced now. Valkyr's hysteria is also fine, including mirage's LOS for prism. In sum, most of the reworks are fine except volt's speed and Trinitys blessing. Please look into these and enemy scaling at higher levels preferably( low lvls < 70 are still fine imo). Lastly, please introduce a CORPUS RAID ALREADY!!!! XDXD

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I wouldn't worry too much about the naysayers. The improvements over the years, while a bit bumpy at times, have been an improvement overall over the years. The removal of cheese, and especially the addition of deeper and more engaging skills with reworks and new frames. I love it. I would love to see DE go even further with the interactions between skills. Don't just limit the interactions to between just those of a single frame. Allow multiple frames to combine their abilities for more unique effects. Think Tech/Biotic explotions from Mass Effect 3, or Dual and Triple Techs from Chrono Trigger. We already have the start of this via the elemental weapon damage augments for #1 skills. i.e. Freeze Force + Venom Doze granting the target Viral damage, rather than Cold and Toxin independently. Increased interactions across frame skills would be an incredibly fun and wonderful expansion on an already changing skill system.

 

As for enemy scaling, I don't see any problem with infinite scaling. It is a great way to continuously live test balancing. The only problem I see with the scaling, is that it rises in difficulty too fast. The exponential growth doesn't always match with how the Warframes and player weapons scale. One wave, you're all fine and dandy, the next you can't kill anyone. If anything needs fixed with scaling, it is the power curve of the enemies. The infinite scaling should be left behind. Both as a test to players, and a test for development balancing.

Edited by csBahamut
Forgot to comment on Enemy scaling.
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I think I've said this before but I'm going to say it again. I acknowledge it will be drowned out:

You can't fix enemy scaling without tackling the frames that pretty much set these "challenges" on easy mode. The data gets skewed because it's the same frames using the same powers over and over again. The people arguing that these changes weren't needed are stuck in the mindset that you need to use these tactics to counter scaling, and instead unintentionally added to the problem. DE obviously wants to take a look at scaling next, but needed to stop the frames that prevented them from collecting data. If they changed enemy scaling, but didn't change the frames, then no one would notice anything. The ones that do raids regularly will still use Blind Mirage, Bless Trin, Turret Excal and whatever was the most effective tactic available. Now they were nerfed, and I'll agree overnerfed in some areas, but DE can get reliable data on the issue and proper feedback because normally when the issue of scaling enemies came up, the typical response from players was always: Use X to counter Y because scaling is BS and you might as well cheese.

DE took the right avenue with this patch, so we should be using our time to test things and give feedback. The players who thought they could still go do a raid or sortie with the same setup for their frames should have known better and gotten used to the changes. Sorties aren't that bad, you can take pretty much any frame if you know how to use it and if you understand how each mission runs. Sorties are meant to test our knowledge of mechanics. Using the old stuff wasn't applying our knowledge, it was just an easy thing to do to finish another farm.

The last thing I'm going to state, and this is the last I'll be posting in this thread because I'm noticing the back and forth nature of the community.The OP states that this week there will be a discussion on enemy scaling. That is a lot sooner than what most people are saying will happen. I've seen some people argue we'll be dealing with this for a year before any fix will happen, so they might as well revert the patch. Last I checked, a week is way shorter than a year. Hold DE to that discussion instead of bashing them for a much needed change. Don't try to cheese anymore, try to use all your tools as effectively as possible and give feedback on what is underwhelming.

Notable quotes of players who are on the "revert the nerf" bandwagon:

"Where's the hotfix that gets rid of these bad changes" not helpful feedback.

"We need cheese in order to complete these raids. We need nukeframe to do high level content." not healthy game play logic

"RIP Warframe 5/27/2016" not helpful at all. Just a spammable meme

"I quit Warframe because DE messed up" not helpful, and doesn't help with the problem

 

What I see is complaining for the sake of complaining and it is not helping. You can't expect big changes to happen so quickly, but you can expect small things to come out quickly. Use your energy to help the devs instead of making a salt post that will be ignored. Now leave me to my testing as that is the more pressing matter. 

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18 minutes ago, CrazyCortex said:

What I see is complaining for the sake of complaining and it is not helping. You can't expect big changes to happen so quickly, but you can expect small things to come out quickly. Use your energy to help the devs instead of making a salt post that will be ignored. Now leave me to my testing as that is the more pressing matter. 

Constructive criticism would require rational thinking, which is hard to understand for some player who mainly react emotionally and/or too lazy to participate in the game's impovement.

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17 hours ago, Fifield said:

I agree re: Ballistas but where else do enemies one-hit players?  Melee sure, but where else?  Even level 120 Bursas don't one hit you if you modded properly.

Bombardiers. They'll kill a player before even seeing them.

The other problem is back-to-back respawns of mobs in the same place. Why I use the Tonkor 2x every time, as killing the first mob is never enough.

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Infinite level scaling is part of the problem, people tend to cheese because when mobs hit a certain point then they get shredded. 

If you balance by removing cheese then you should also look at balancing mobs and place a hard level cap on endless mission.

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You got my whole support for the better or the worse but maybe just maybe let us know a bit beforehand what you wanna actually do the the frames and not 24h before? or at least show it on the devstream :) 

I understand why you changed the frames you changed, yet i am missing ash in your calculations there if you are going the full way of what you are doing.

Hopefully one day you will rework hydroid his passive, i feel more sorry for the hydroid players than i feel sorry for the rebalanced frames players.

(having a passive that doesnt works all the time is not really a passive and there were better options from what ive seen)

Take care and fix the enemies now asap, since the timelapse shouldnt be big between a nerf for something and the something in question.

 

Have a great day,

Thor

Edited by Thorgalsbro
Tabbed accidentaly

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my one note is that  war, war never changes and we are at war with the enemy faction(s) and yes we are a bunch of cheesy space ninjas with absurd powers but we also need to be reined in a bit, trinity's nerf was ... harsh but not game breaking the rest seemed alright (yet to play mag) now a few passives *cough* oberon* cough* need some work but good job DE now the enemies need addressing which im glad  to see being recognized by you.

 

also YAY POTENTIAL FOR LIMBO BUFFS

your continued supporter

me

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@[DE]Rebecca Removing cheesing is integral to the continued improvement of the game and DE is correct to do all they can to stop it, but at the same time something has to be done to fix the inherent cause of the "Cheese". Mirage is my favorite damage frame and main focus farm frame. I prefer to use prism as a kill ability particularly on Draco, set it off and go kill on the other site of the map and repeat, it's lovely and once I get used to the LoS changes I doubt they will matter to me. However that Draco abuse is due to the difficulty of getting focus anywhere else, and from my experience of the proxy defense it seems that's changing, albeit cautiously. That's a great move DE I'm still not sure how you're doing it, although I suspect the 50 meter Tenno affinity may be involved. Either way it's great that you're moving to improve a rather painful system.

Which takes us to the true pain, Mirage and Trinity's T4I abuse, which occurs for a very simple reason, T3 and T4 defense and survival take too long for generally average rewards, knowing you'll have to run around for 20 minutes before even getting a chance at an Ash Systems is a horrible thing to force people to do particularly when they instead receive their hundredth Forma BP, and while I accept it's integral to monetizing a game whilst also trying to minimize P2W, it's just too long, particularly when a Sabotage will net you 2 prime rewards in less than 10 minutes and you could do 5 Capture runs in the same time. T4I took a while yes but it allowed you to guarantee some ducats from your run and you could do 12 waves and come out with 200 ducats worth of stuff as opposed to an hour of survival for 100 or so with a hell of a lot more effort. Truth be told right now survival is horrible. Just horrible.

Easy solution, get rid of the AABC make it ABC in survival (maybe defense too) and get rid of forma BPs and Orokin cells in T3-T4 defense and survival Reward The Grind Better, yes it's not much better but still better.

Because there has to be give and take, the cheesing occurs because those other prominent (endless) Ducat locations are so bad to farm, when [DE]Steve talks about reducing the grind, he means changing locations and enemies. That's not reduction, that's alteration and it isn't what the community is asking for, they want more sensible grinding, which quite simply means removing the terrible rewards and absurd time investment. The only time I really wanted Forma BPs I was MR4 or so and desperate for a sentinel, I wasn't really sure what they did but I knew higher MR players had them and clearly they provided some benefit, I had T1 keys maybe a few T2s, these are where forma should be not in the higher level tricky missions where players are investing lots of time into trying to get the last part for their new Prime Warframe, and getting salty AF after yet another unwanted 20 minute reward. They're something newer players really need and higher MR players would happily run T1s and T2s for them instead even with reduced drops. I've put over 1000hrs into WF and still don't have Nova P because the Derelict survivals are even worse. After about 8 hours of ODS play that last nova part won't drop. Yes I've tried running it a few times in a row but just can't manage more than 2 it's sooo boring and rage inducing. It's a fairly hard mission so why is it so hard to get a tolerable reward?

As for the nerfing of 4 of the most used/versatile frames:    (I'm not even going to start on mag, but until now she's virtually been a purely corpus frame)

The Trin bless nerf is nasty and detracts from end game missions particularly raids, the Valk nerf is harsh on less built up Valkyrs and will turn plenty of people away from investing the effort to make Valk good, the Excal nerf, well it makes sense (hopefully the same thing will affect shadow stalkers EB), and the Mirage nerf stops cheesing. But still nothing on fixing the cause. And DE fixing the cause is the next step to keep improving this game.

Good Luck :)

 

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Thanks, DE

Maybe it's time to cut some content instead of adding more and more elements of little quality.

7f2l5aH.jpg

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2 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

Bombardiers. They'll kill a player before even seeing them.

Yeah, you should be able to dodging through standing behind eg a pillar.

2 hours ago, Kevyne_Kicklighter said:

The other problem is back-to-back respawns of mobs in the same place.

Haven't seen much of that but I don't camp Survivals any more.

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my problem with mag is the armor scale and shield scaling is complete BS but if its void not as bad but corpus you need toxic or magnetic damage seeing how mag doesn't do mag damage on polarize when draining shield but dose blast dosn't help yes use a weapon but  when the frame isn't doing the damage type its a bit annoying i like the rework on her just 1 or 2 tweaks on some numbers or damage typeing or ability to proc mag and I'm fine with her.

With volt i feel that the damedge on his charged shield is eh.  picking it up its fine with that but when on the round you are useing at no efficency 75 energy with for somethign that dose little damage and blocks wepon fire (but very very happy at it blocking bombard explosions. i would be fine with a fery short stagger when enemys walk through the sheild but nit picky.  it properly blocking bombard rockets is a huge boon not even frost can do that so I'm happy with just that. and my problem with volt is the HUGE discrepency  between volt and volt prime. volt prime having more the 2x armor 2x enerby 1 extra polarity is a little much for a prime frame. not to mencon the primed ability which isn't that big but dose help. not saying a prime should't be better but only thing i think should happen is give volt the same armor as vauban 50 then all is fixed.

As fare as volt and mag still testing.

MAG

  Polarize is OK but doesn't scale well at all with power yah base duration is amazing but that means nothing if its like a masqutio bite.

  Magnetize is really really good (why is 2 ability always better then 3) bu has a lot and i mean a lot of team problems making it impossible to shoot at an enemy from behind it so       you  have to walk up to shoot the enemy which at high levels we know how that ends make it so if the enemy is dead it has a max and min duration it says up.

VOLT

  Speed pickup is waly smaller then the pickup make it like the focus pickup (might be lag on my end still testing also hard to test this)

  shield not reason to shock it unless holding it like i said one mil sec of stun would be good (not counting the animation of stun starting and ending so maby half a sec to a sec)

  tesla base range from discharged units little small again testing still

Passives

Ash- GOOD

Banshee- better then sounds come on guys 1 silenced shot guns 2 hush mods stack with silence but indirectly test your selfs to see what i meen

EMBER- GOOD and really really strong

HYDROID- GOOD

MAG- GOOD

NEKROS-GOOD

NOVA- WEIRD & GOOD and hard to see at least for me

NYX- good but not a passive more of a side affect of the ability then a passive

Oberon- i agree with Scott OP but ai is a bit weird needs more testing on my end and to people saying its a faction based passive its a faction based frame he dose radiation for gods sake

TRINITY-GOOD makes sense and works well

VAUBAN-GOOD but pointless because it only gives him 3 or 4 armor per player unless is off his current armor then really good and its op on the prime because 100 armor

VOLT-GOOD but bit wonky in a good way for me

as for "nerfs"

Excal ulti doesn't men much to me but from testing at least with the build i have its not that much of a drop off

mirage slight of hand buff fun fun fun people use this ability it is broken in surv. as for blind understandable but i agree with earlier statements LoS is rather bi-polar

Trini a little needed but i think the res should still be global and the equation if i did my math right is better long term then short also in later parts of endless this does little but make you stick a little closer together which kinda happens at least in my experience.

Mesa my god peacemaker is amazing being able to get target cracker is godly as well as element

my point of this is do testing people who complain and to de those are my personal thought and as for cosmetics just fix the chest on nova prime with skins and I'm content.

to people who complain from only the notes if you truly like the frame test it first i under stand it hurts when something you spend a lot of time and forma and it gets Nerfed its annoying and heart wrenching but that is how things work

Also DE can we get better passive on rhino or a tweak on activation range for it because why would you want to heavy land even with that passive make him have slightly faster recovery from heavy landings.

sorry for wall of text should have made a post but i no one who would need to see this would go looking for it only people who they agree with heck probly happens here but more read regardless. again this is my personal thoughts with a hour worth of testing and as 1 person its hard to get every thing right.

sorry forgot about limbos passive not limbo because i thought he already had one woops

his is fine bit selective but fine again like nyx it feels more like a part of his powers then a passive

Edited by Legendknightc
missed limbos passive and wanted to put my 2 cents on it
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I would be able to believe that DE is working to balance content, if I had heard anything recently about helping out Hydroid in a reasonable capacity.  From its beginnings, it hasn't been very useful in team gameplay, and especially in endgame scenarios.  However, when it got its one chance to shine in team gameplay, through Pilfering Swarm being affected by power strength, that was nerfed because of a new Warframe's capabilities, those being of Equinox's power strength buff.  In addition, the new passive of Hydroid's only works when ground pounding, which is something done rarely enough, but being done as a Hydroid with no bulk leaves you open to return fire from enemies outside the range of the ground pound long enough to be killed, easily.  In addition, little focus seems to be on helping out Zephyr, a Warframe with no usefulness in a squad apart from using Jet Stream, and even then, the shared speed boost is limited by its range.  Zephyr has only had one relatively useful ability, which is Turbulence, that has enough flaws on its own, where the other abilities are just gimmicks at this point, and the first ability (Tailwind) and Zephyr's passive (reduced gravity got reduced, how is that even possible?  Oh, wait, it's a space bird ninja, anything is possible) even got a nerf with the new mobility system.  I don't get how these can be ignored and at the same time, things are being 'balanced'.  

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22 hours ago, Eufrasia said:

 noice can't wait for enemy nerfs xD

If we're being nerfed, it's because we're deemed too powerful for the enemies to handle.  These nerfs to Tenno in no way imply or even promote the idea that enemies will be nerfed.  

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3 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

If we're being nerfed, it's because we're deemed too powerful for the enemies to handle.  These nerfs to Tenno in no way imply or even promote the idea that enemies will be nerfed.  

Check the OP, man. "We will be hotfixing like mad next week, and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it."

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55 minutes ago, Legendknightc said:

my problem with mag is the armor scale and shield scaling is complete BS but if its void not as bad but corpus you need toxic or magnetic damage seeing how mag doesn't do mag damage on polarize when draining shield but dose blast dosn't help yes use a weapon but  when the frame isn't doing the damage type its a bit annoying i like the rework on her just 1 or 2 tweaks on some numbers or damage typeing or ability to proc mag and I'm fine with her.

With volt i feel that the damedge on his charged shield is eh.  picking it up its fine with that but when on the round you are useing at no efficency 75 energy with for somethign that dose little damage and blocks wepon fire (but very very happy at it blocking bombard explosions. i would be fine with a fery short stagger when enemys walk through the sheild but nit picky.  it properly blocking bombard rockets is a huge boon not even frost can do that so I'm happy with just that. and my problem with volt is the HUGE discrepency  between volt and volt prime. volt prime having more the 2x armor 2x enerby 1 extra polarity is a little much for a prime frame. not to mencon the primed ability which isn't that big but dose help. not saying a prime should't be better but only thing i think should happen is give volt the same armor as vauban 50 then all is fixed.

As fare as volt and mag still testing.

MAG

  Polarize is OK but doesn't scale well at all with power yah base duration is amazing but that means nothing if its like a masqutio bite.

  Magnetize is really really good (why is 2 ability always better then 3) bu has a lot and i mean a lot of team problems making it impossible to shoot at an enemy from behind it so       you  have to walk up to shoot the enemy which at high levels we know how that ends make it so if the enemy is dead it has a max and min duration it says up.

VOLT

  Speed pickup is waly smaller then the pickup make it like the focus pickup (might be lag on my end still testing also hard to test this)

  shield not reason to shock it unless holding it like i said one mil sec of stun would be good (not counting the animation of stun starting and ending so maby half a sec to a sec)

  tesla base range from discharged units little small again testing still

Passives

HYDROID- GOOD

 

Hydroid summoning a tentacle on ground slams is GOOD? The frame needs a rework and we get a MELEE focused passive on one of the least melee focused frames in game. His movement and agility are poor, his armor thin, and his abilities have cast times about 40% to long animation wise. Then he has knock downs, pushes, and a drowning pool, plus a tentacle mass that would make even a Manga Artist blush. Why couldn't it have gotten something like a base health orb release from slain enemies of its powers? 

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53 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Check the OP, man. "We will be hotfixing like mad next week, and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it."

I wasn't talking about the OP, I was just responding to a comment that implied enemies would be reworked to match for Tenno being nerfed, which seems to me to be the opposite direction in which enemies have been headed, as the record probably will show.  That the OP mentioned enemies potentially being looked into for readjustments in scaling, I find difficult to believe will ever happen, even if DE announces it.  But, now I know that they at least said that it was a possibility.  Thanks for pointing this out.  

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8 hours ago, (XB1)PhilfyRatBagZ said:

I have nothing against change if it is "for the better" and "for the right reasons"

I'm a day 1 Xbox player and love the game, but the last time you nerfed too many good weapons/frames I left the game.

Why? because you nerfed things for all the wrong reasons. I like playing against high level enermy (100>200+) and need strong weapons to compete without having to use "cheese"...but instead you listen to all these cry babies who get upset at players running around on low level missions and the star chart spamming 4 and waving around the weapons like light sabers killing everything. STOP NERFING MY INVESTMENTS in your game!

Sorry had to get that off my chest 1st. :0/

 

Currant / Planned changes:

EB, you went too far putting on a energy cost to spin attack (the blind) I'm old school and always spin attack for the 2x damage. How about you just remove the blind all together. The other changes are ok as I see  EB used to cheese like a turret as bad for the game.

Valkyr / Hysteria, While I'm ok with the extra energy cost over time, the ending of Hystria hurting you is BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD.

2 reasons:  1: You make Valkyr a grineer only frame like Inaros.  2: Running through a door and hitting a nully bubble that kills you is just stupid let alone those nully guys in corpus....why would I run away from a fight to end hystria???

Trinity / Blessing: I think making Blessing a ranged power is just fine, but to nerf the damage mitigation (yes folks it's a nerf) is once again the "it's Wednesday better nerf Trinity" syndrome.

 

Yes I love the direction your going with the changes, BUT, your going too far again. STOP NERFING MY INVESTMENT IN THE GAME

 

TY :0/

 

 

Completely and totally agreed.  All these nerfs are ruining veteran players' interest in the game, as their endgame strategies are being used in the meta to cheese midgame content, which in turn gets them nerfed.  In my opinion, this is pushing apart veteran and newer players in that veteran players are incentivised to not help newer players and leave them with strategies that are mediocre at best, so that they will not abuse the veteran player's strategy and get it nerfed.  This is why I consider people's mastery rank when I host a LoR raid, not because I'm a mr21 snob, but because I don't want newer players to see endgame squads and bring them to the midgame meta, and get them nerfed.  

Edited by shootaman777
RIP grammar.
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