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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

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2 hours ago, Khlamydia said:

...


This raises the question... Does the DE Development team play this game? Who actually does these beta tests before they go out to the playerbase? Is there an actual employee of DE who has somewhere in his job description: "Test new changes before they are released out to the public"? Is this theoretical person only checking if a new weapon/ability works without crashing the game or if it is also useful in the majority of content and functions in a way that isn't a sad joke past level 60? Does anything at all get checked or tested in content before it goes out to players in any kind of realistic inside public Warframe environment? An environment where cheat codes aren't turned on for testers and the enemies are above level 60? A place where there isnt an infinite pool of energy and health sitting next to the tester? A place where Nullifiers and Eximus and other high level nonsense is standing around waiting to be hit by these new weapons and powers? What I'm basically asking: Is testing of new weapons and powers done literally in the Simulacrum with a single enemy spawned at level 20 or 40 before its handed off to the players?

...

Problem here is that according to developers (please see the very first post here, stating it) the game is Open Beta still (though in fact it should not be). That means WE are testers for them. And no matter how hard they screw up, they have an excuse - it's an open beta, sorry guys.

And such things happened many times, as you can see on the forum activity graph. In most cases several band-aid fixes are made (which is not what community asks for but still makes forums calm down). That's how it is, that's how it was and most likely that's how it will be till the game's decay, because (my assumption based mostly on last year changes) from profit point of view it's okay and keeps the game running.

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Dear DE:

In arguing about the recent changes in another thread, I was able to come to this conclusion:

In order for Warframe to achieve longevity, the contents of the game must achieve a good balance between challenging, fun, and rewarding; for over the past year, the balance between the three factors has been skewing mostly to the side of challenging, without advancing much in fun and reward. It is my opinion that some of the playerbase are upset over the recent patch, because while it was intended to balance the game, it does nothing to alleviate the balance issue between challenging, fun and rewarding. The challenge aspect has been increased yet again, but the fun and reward aspects remains the same.

DE, if you are listening, please understand; we, the players, understand the business model you employ, and the most of us are not overtly against it. But, until you succeed in creating a good balance between challenge, fun and reward, any drastic changes like the ones you've implemented recently will be met with resistance, and I do believe it is in your interest to not be resisted in such ways.

Sincerely,

BCAW

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If you had a public test server or a staff of QA testers chosen from the WF vets, you'd be able to head off most of these problems before they get into the game proper. Then we don't have to deal with bad changes (even in the short term) and you can release things when they are good and ready. That leaves the game playable for the rest of us while the changes are being worked on instead of leaving us with a mess that prompts many to take breaks from the game. We want to be playing your game, the game we LOVE, but if you let it sit (even while working on quick fixes) some of us won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

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13 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

If you had a public test server or a staff of QA testers chosen from the WF vets, you'd be able to head off most of these problems before they get into the game proper. Then we don't have to deal with bad changes (even in the short term) and you can release things when they are good and ready. That leaves the game playable for the rest of us while the changes are being worked on instead of leaving us with a mess that prompts many to take breaks from the game. We want to be playing your game, the game we LOVE, but if you let it sit (even while working on quick fixes) some of us won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

I really can't underscore enough how important this is.  I play League as well, and while many of us may make fun of Riot, the fact of the matter is that they head off MOST of their dumb decisions on the PBE (public beta environment), where they can test changes safely and revert them if necessary.  This would be a fantastic idea for WF, because it seems like almost every release comes packed with bugs and balance issues (those pre-nerf Kavats though) that could be averted with better playtesting.

The other thing that League has is excellent telemetry.  I've never really heard DE talk about this aspect (though it would seem at least some of the groundwork is there, judging by profiles), so I don't know if WF has similar data collection, but it would be invaluable to know things like the pick-rate of each frame/weapon, and the failure/abort rate of specific high-level missions based on team composition.  Additionally, things like how many times/how much time frames are downed for missions and what enemies are doing the bulk of the EHP damage (e.g. the mysterious 1-shotting level 10 anti moas in this patch).  This data would have been useful to know, for example, that Excalibur wasn't played in high-tier sorties in any appreciable number because he was too weak, which maybe could have been combined with durability buffs to make up for gutting his ability to play from safety with EB.

This is if DE is actually interested in balancing the game.  If instead, as this patch would seem to evidence, they are interested in making more protracted slog and grind in order to encourage people to pay money for things (or say, making camping the only viable strategy at high tiers of play, which Vauban Prime access would be quite useful for [end conspiracy theory]), then...well you do you, DE.  I'll be playing other games.

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the ui elements for trinity need to be changed so that trinity knows who is in range and who isn't otherwise its a random and you don't know who you are going to be healing' also I think healing outside the range should be 50% or at least reduced at some lvl not removed.

just giving some ideas

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1 hour ago, BCAW said:

Dear DE:

In arguing about the recent changes in another thread, I was able to come to this conclusion:

In order for Warframe to achieve longevity, the contents of the game must achieve a good balance between challenging, fun, and rewarding; for over the past year, the balance between the three factors has been skewing mostly to the side of challenging, without advancing much in fun and reward. It is my opinion that some of the playerbase are upset over the recent patch, because while it was intended to balance the game, it does nothing to alleviate the balance issue between challenging, fun and rewarding. The challenge aspect has been increased yet again, but the fun and reward aspects remains the same.

DE, if you are listening, please understand; we, the players, understand the business model you employ, and the most of us are not overtly against it. But, until you succeed in creating a good balance between challenge, fun and reward, any drastic changes like the ones you've implemented recently will be met with resistance, and I do believe it is in your interest to not be resisted in such ways.

Sincerely,

BCAW

whos we?

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3 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

whos we?

Out of everything I wrote, you choose to question a word I used once. Very well, I shall rephrase.

"We, a large portion of the playerbase."

Am I politically correct now?

And if you wish to continue with criticizing my opinion, try picking something with more substance please, thank you.

Cheers.

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1 hour ago, Mewvg2 said:

If you had a public test server or a staff of QA testers chosen from the WF vets, you'd be able to head off most of these problems before they get into the game proper. Then we don't have to deal with bad changes (even in the short term) and you can release things when they are good and ready. That leaves the game playable for the rest of us while the changes are being worked on instead of leaving us with a mess that prompts many to take breaks from the game. We want to be playing your game, the game we LOVE, but if you let it sit (even while working on quick fixes) some of us won't touch it with a ten foot pole.

As I've said previously, this already exists and has been a thing since U16:

 

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10 hours ago, --Valkyr said:

uhm, I never say "make this happen", I just say it casually. Why are you triggered by such a brief reply?

I'm not triggered.  I'd just like to hear what you have to say, and was asking you to clarify what exactly that was.  

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2 hours ago, BCAW said:

Dear DE:

In arguing about the recent changes in another thread, I was able to come to this conclusion:

In order for Warframe to achieve longevity, the contents of the game must achieve a good balance between challenging, fun, and rewarding; for over the past year, the balance between the three factors has been skewing mostly to the side of challenging, without advancing much in fun and reward. It is my opinion that some of the playerbase are upset over the recent patch, because while it was intended to balance the game, it does nothing to alleviate the balance issue between challenging, fun and rewarding. The challenge aspect has been increased yet again, but the fun and reward aspects remains the same.

DE, if you are listening, please understand; we, the players, understand the business model you employ, and the most of us are not overtly against it. But, until you succeed in creating a good balance between challenge, fun and reward, any drastic changes like the ones you've implemented recently will be met with resistance, and I do believe it is in your interest to not be resisted in such ways.

Sincerely,

BCAW

Fair enough.  :)

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1 hour ago, NovusNova said:

As I've said previously, this already exists and has been a thing since U16:

 

That reads like a one-off thing for U16...  Even if it's not, 20 is way too small to get meaningful statistics out of.  So unless they've massively expanded the program and kept it up with no mention, the deficit remains.  Would be curious to here from DE about that.

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On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 11:48 AM, (XB1)NecroEric420 said:

I never got to experience a dagger to the heart like my old buddy used to talk about until now because, im newer... trinity was perfect in every way and didnt need to be touched... i can deal with any other change.... :(

 

You guys do great work but this one really hurt me.

Also just a side note but an aura range and xp share isnt very fun... i think it should just be universal and infinite range. especially in archwing.

 

cheers. thanks for breaking my heart. im sure you will many times again because you cant leave anything alone even when its perfect.

 

You do realize trinity was never meant to heal with infinite range right? You do realize that she was game breaking, right? Game breaking on an online game is overall detrimental to the game as a whole, you realize that right? 

 

Learn the game as it was meant to be played, instead of crying because your easy mode that never should have been was fixed. 

Edited by ObviousLee

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3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

You do realize trinity was never meant to heal with infinite range right? You do realize that she was game breaking, right? Game breaking on an online game is overall detrimental to the game as a whole, you realize that right? 

 

Learn the game as it was meant to be played, instead of crying because your easy mode that never should have been was fixed. 

Your first three questions seem highly presumptuous.  What do you know of what Trinity was ever meant to do?  You're not part of the DE staff who makes that decision.  Get off your high horse, you're just a player like the rest of us (that Founders emblem doesn't make you better or worse than any other player, either).  Also, on the idea that Trinity was game breaking, you'd be correct, yet incorrect, in saying that.  She did have the potential to make the entire game 'trivialised', yes.  But, she was only used due to equally broken enemies that, last I checked, still exist.  I don't know about you, but I've only seen Blessing Trinities in endgame mission squads.  Blessing Trinities never were the meta of every mission, nor did they just 'break' the game.  They were a broken thing used only on occasion to counter equally broken things.  That is why she is not 'game breaking', as something 'broken' in a 'broken' game is not 'broken', it's normal.  And, by the token of 'broken' things being used to counter 'broken' things being normal, and even expected in Warframe, these 'game breaking' things are not detrimental to the game - they're a fundamental part of it.  

Also, if you're going to be an egotistical douchebag, at least don't be insulting to other players on account of that.  The point of the forums is to be a place where players can engage in polite and respectful discussions and have their opinions heard.  This is not a place to ridicule people with your definitions of what you see to be 'ObviousLee' the problem, when in reality those things that you were spouting as facts are merely your own opinion.  

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On 5/28/2016 at 4:05 PM, CrazyCortex said:

Put it this way, in order to see where the problem areas with enemies are, the tactics that make it impossible to collect that data were dialed back. This is where our feedback comes in and the recent changes will actually improve our feedback because we can actively face the impossible enemies without our "crutches." The data becomes clearer that way.

i was actually thinking the same thing, when they employed the nerfs, this makes sense considering how long the current armor scaling systems has been in place

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1 minute ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

i was actually thinking the same thing, when they employed the nerfs, this makes sense considering how long the current armor scaling systems has been in place

Why not just collect a group of veteran players to test out every build versus endgame content, or better yet, DE could use the simulacrum to do the same.  There is no need to use players as guinea pigs when DE has such a ready and available tool to use for testing these things.  Plus, DE probably has a version of the simulacrum where they can have multiple people in it, which players do not.  

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2 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Why not just collect a group of veteran players to test out every build versus endgame content, or better yet, DE could use the simulacrum to do the same.  There is no need to use players as guinea pigs when DE has such a ready and available tool to use for testing these things.  Plus, DE probably has a version of the simulacrum where they can have multiple people in it, which players do not.  

because of how risky and biased it could prove to be, 9 times out of 10 they're going to say "not powerful enough, buff it", and we will more than likely have tonkor and ash clones out the wazoo

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On May 29, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Sannidor said:

Thanks, DE

Maybe it's time to cut some content instead of adding more and more elements of little quality.

7f2l5aH.jpg

Pretty please lol

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As time went on I've grown to trust you guys more and more, and even though balancing exploits and overpowered gear takes you far longer than I feel it should, you end up doing the mostly painful decisions that make the game better in the long run.

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Am i the only one who feels like this is a repeat of Parkour 2.0 and how that played out? Think about it for a sec, the Devstream talked about how awesome it was gonna be. They even had cinematic footage showing all that coolness. Excal all zip-lining, doing looptyloops, running up walls, jumping from one to another, not doing bunny hops. It looked so nice, then the update came and it was like "DE? You promised us a cake. Like "Cake" cake not (Carrot) cupcake. This is bullocks where's the finished product". It seems a bit similar to how they showed the Mag rework with [DE]Rebecca on the moon doing a survival BY HERSELF (<--that should've been a red flag) and then we heard Scott talk about it (<--yet another red flag, the man known for nerfing already nerfed things and has pretty much 50/50 hit or miss ratio spoke on Mag and her rework. Let that sink in for a sec.) and it seemed so awesome. Then people played it and it's like wow DE you promised us a cake, like "Cake" cake and we got (Carrot) cupcake instead, and now you're saying you got us and the you're gonna fix enemy scaling and it's like you sure? Sure you won't try to ram our back door as soon as we turn around? How are we to trust you guys the next time when you always seem to shank us in the side instead? 

 

 

Disclaimer: dis nah mai viddio. I just find it funny that this was the initial video that caused us to board the Hypetrain for Parkour 2.0 and then the update came and we got bunny hops.

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My question, and maybe I missed something in the original post, but is this the official place to post feed back, and they're going to trawl through all of these posts? Or is there an official place in the support desk to go to?

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1 hour ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

because of how risky and biased it could prove to be, 9 times out of 10 they're going to say "not powerful enough, buff it", and we will more than likely have tonkor and ash clones out the wazoo

I didn't mean to say that DE would incorporate the veteran players' feedback into their original decision.  I meant that they would observe this gameplay and have it recorded, and DE would make their own decisions based on what was displayed in front of them, as opposed to putting nerfs out into the general public for everyone to have to deal with and *@##&#036; about on the forums, while a vast majority of players would not understand why what was nerfed was nerfed, or how to figure out how to reuse the nerfed content (which is sometimes impossible, given that some of is not even practically usable anymore), just leading to mass frustration, which is what we are seeing now on the forums, with the fallout of Update 18.13.  

Also, you're ignoring where I said that DE could just use a simulacrum to test out their new things.  If they did this, they would see that things like their Mag rework are entirely useless, and nerfs, not improvements.  

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8 minutes ago, LilyLincesa said:

My question, and maybe I missed something in the original post, but is this the official place to post feed back, and they're going to trawl through all of these posts? Or is there an official place in the support desk to go to?

Sadly, this seems to be the only place to voice our feedback, and we will never know if it gets read by DE, or if we are just talking to ourselves.  The reason that we're here is that we care enough to at least try to be heard, so let's be hopeful that what we say here actually does make a difference.  

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16 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

 

Sadly, this seems to be the only place to voice our feedback, and we will never know if it gets read by DE, or if we are just talking to ourselves.  The reason that we're here is that we care enough to at least try to be heard, so let's be hopeful that what we say here actually does make a difference.  

If they didn't want this kind of thread, it wouldn't have been prompted by Rebecca. If anyone were to believe they did this in poor faith or to distract us, I cannot contemplate why that individual would bother to post here anyhow to mention that. I agree with you: assume good faith and act commensurately. Assume your feedback matters.

I've read a lot of the thread and hope they read it, too - they know they have reduced players in power rather substantially in certain circumstances, but done nothing to accommodate the broken mechanics players were struggling against in the first place. This is a combination that will get you angry players (and please individuals who love the challenge, and so on). It is unfortunately one of the two areas Warframe is weakest - balance. The other, UI, is especially evident with Archwing stuff and the innumerable odd UI/QoL problems that people track.

I hope the lessons learned here will allow them to grow in balancing the game more effectively, because this is a long-deferred problem they are struggling against... all while having to make new content to keep long-timers interested. The insane costs of Vauban Prime and the Focus beta show that content is being stretched as well.

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51 minutes ago, (PS4)panellgpierre said:

Am i the only one who feels like this is a repeat of Parkour 2.0 and how that played out? Think about it for a sec, the Devstream talked about how awesome it was gonna be. They even had cinematic footage showing all that coolness. Excal all zip-lining, doing looptyloops, running up walls, jumping from one to another, not doing bunny hops. It looked so nice, then the update came and it was like "DE? You promised us a cake. Like "Cake" cake not (Carrot) cupcake. This is bullocks where's the finished product". It seems a bit similar to how they showed the Mag rework with [DE]Rebecca on the moon doing a survival BY HERSELF (<--that should've been a red flag) and then we heard Scott talk about it (<--yet another red flag, the man known for nerfing already nerfed things and has pretty much 50/50 hit or miss ratio spoke on Mag and her rework. Let that sink in for a sec.) and it seemed so awesome. Then people played it and it's like wow DE you promised us a cake, like "Cake" cake and we got (Carrot) cupcake instead, and now you're saying you got us and the you're gonna fix enemy scaling and it's like you sure? Sure you won't try to ram our back door as soon as we turn around? How are we to trust you guys the next time when you always seem to shank us in the side instead? 

 

I agree with you on this one.  All we've got is nerfs, and a blanket promises for fixes to enemies.  I expect nothing good to come of Update 18.13 or any related hotfixes, as DE has a bad habit of making us players believe we're getting something amazing and then we end up with oatmeal raisin cookies, not the chocolate chip ones we were promised.  Above all things, I believe this to be the continued largest mistake of DE, as they discourage players from playing the game and sow the seeds of distrust and rage between the players and themselves, and then wonder why or claim innocence when people sometimes come rampaging to the forums.  

I can tell you that I have stopped watching any Prime Times and Devstreams, as I have become sick of things that look so nice, then turn out so terrible that they are just a huge disappointment.  I would rather just be disappointed by DE's next update's nerfs than have my hopes up for DE's announced next update's buffs and positive reworks that are not delivered.  

Also, that Mag rework has not helped Mag at all in neither team nor solo gameplay, as now, the augment for Mag's fourth ability is more powerful than Mag's second and third abilities put together, which is what I consider to be a sad joke (I've tested this out in the simulacrum, and if you ask, I'll explain exactly how I tested it, but I'd rather not take a lot of time to explain something without the hope of what I type even being seen by anyone).  Also, I am not calling for a removal or nerf of Mag's fourth ability augment, I am calling for a massive buff to her second and third abilities (as I think the concepts of those abilities are workable, but the damage and debuff numbers are currently too low to be of any value), as they should not be disgraced by an augment.  

[What I would have preferred for Mag's second ability to be is something similar to the bio-bomb from the game Prototype, where you select an enemy and then all of the nearby enemies and movable objects (in Prototype's case, this would be people, cars, and assorted city debris) would be slammed into the original target.  Essentially, this would be used in Warframe to slam small-fry and other tanks into the tankiest enemy in a group, also leaving this group vulnerable to weapons such as the Tonkor directly after, as they would be grouped up very tightly.]  

At least as a one trick Corpus pony, Mag could handle and even solo endgame content, which is a tremendous feat in and of itself, whereas now she is useless anywhere past midgame content.  Now, she has no squad usefulness in any challenging content except by using an augment that is inconsistent and only somewhat useful, like Mirage (with Total Eclipse), which I think is a colossal nerf as opposed to what we were led to believe.  

Edited by shootaman777
Additions are in braces ( [ ] ), and everything ended up italicized, which I changed.

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Beta, Open Beta.
As smart, unique and / or magical some of you believe to be,
you just can't seem to wrap your head(s) around the fact that you're playing a game
(now hold the door for what's next) wich is still in development,
and wich might be in development until 2035 (to make sure those bans don't get lifted).
We test, and test - and with a steady stream of fixes and new content, we test some more.

In my opinion; this beta looks and feels awesome, and it keeps improving with every hotfix, every update, every change.
Yes, improving.
Sure, things get tost around in the cookiejar, so sometimes we're left with a lot of broken ... well .. cookies (the cake is a lie).
Some changes take a little time sinking into, but at the end of the week (sometimes two), it always feels
(at least in my opinion) like an improvement.
As the developers have pointed out, several times, this is only possible because of the community.
A lot of things, if not most, we see ingame are there because 'we' wanted them there.
So before you come here with your tales of horror, doom and eternal darkness,
think about what would make this game better, or what would make that tough pil easier to swallow.
Mold and brew, put those thoughts into words, make em stick, build some decent construction around them, etc,... = feedback
When your idea / feedback is clearly for the betterment of this fine game; DE will support it, and make it happen, soon(TM) -ish.
 

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