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Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

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8 minutes ago, worminthewood said:

Beta, Open Beta.
As smart, unique and / or magical some of you believe to be,
you just can't seem to wrap your head(s) around the fact that you're playing a game
(now hold the door for what's next) wich is still in development,
and wich might be in development until 2035 (to make sure those bans don't get lifted).
We test, and test - and with a steady stream of fixes and new content, we test some more.

In my opinion; this beta looks and feels awesome, and it keeps improving with every hotfix, every update, every change.
Yes, improving.
Sure, things get tost around in the cookiejar, so sometimes we're left with a lot of broken ... well .. cookies (the cake is a lie).
Some changes take a little time sinking into, but at the end of the week (sometimes two), it always feels
(at least in my opinion) like an improvement.
As the developers have pointed out, several times, this is only possible because of the community.
A lot of things, if not most, we see ingame are there because 'we' wanted them there.
So before you come here with your tales of horror, doom and eternal darkness,
think about what would make this game better, or what would make that tough pil easier to swallow.
Mold and brew, put those thoughts into words, make em stick, build some decent construction around them, etc,... = feedback
When your idea / feedback is clearly for the betterment of this fine game; DE will support it, and make it happen, soon(TM) -ish.
 

But it's not really a Beta is it.

It's openly available.

It doesn't mention it's beta anywhere in the game, versions, patches, anything. (And I went looking ,spent a while on it - it's no where)

The only place it mentions this is a Beta is a one post thread on the forums from 2012, 4 sub-forums deep that states by playing the game you accept it's a Beta.

It's on version 18.3.0, released on 3 platforms, has just had its third anniversary.

The T&C, the EULA, the Launcher, Steam, Xbox Store (and I assume PSN store), make no mention of this being a Beta anymore.

As far as the vast majority of players are concerned, due to none of the legal agreements or documents mentioning it as otherwise, (random hidden forum thread does not count), this is a full release game.

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I hate when tactical alerts popup because im almost always being forced into a frame like frost, valkyr, trinity or volt to clear it. But at the same time I love when i have useful abilities in missions like snowglobe and electric shield. Its when they become my only option to reliably clearing missions that it annoys me. Tactical alerts in the past and now always punished me for taking a Volt over a frost(current tac alert), or a Saryn over a valkyr (hive tac alert).

Its the reason i never do sorties and raids. Because i lose that freedom i have over which weapons and frames i can take to a mission and instead im pushed into the strongest frame in that category. Ofcourse not everyone is at the same skill level, gear level, team composition and teamwork so maybe we need a match making system that scales mission difficulty to the skills, loadout and composition consistency of groups.

My experience in dragon nest raising the skill ceiling (at lvl 50) really had a negative effect on the game, fed toxicity in the community and decreased the consistency of getting quality public partys. It also broke apart my guild 2 times as we could'nt take everyone to clear every dungeon as they'd all invested in different classes and some classes were too weak in any composition. This combined with small issues in the game outside players and developers control will become very big and destructive if you raise the skill ceiling too high for people to adjust in multiplayer. (things like player ping, pc lag, frame choice, mod loadouts, weapon loadouts, communication.)

These forums are scary the past 2 days because im seeing people try and snowball the nerfs with calls for abilitys like ripline and snowglobe get removed or blocked from being used for clearing objectives. Theres so much scare mongering that its pushing people's panic buttons including my own *I better post now* before my favourite ability and/or frame gets butchered.

Edited by CarrotSalad
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1 hour ago, worminthewood said:

As the developers have pointed out, several times, this is only possible because of the community.
A lot of things, if not most, we see ingame are there because 'we' wanted them there.
So before you come here with your tales of horror, doom and eternal darkness,
think about what would make this game better, or what would make that tough pil easier to swallow.
Mold and brew, put those thoughts into words, make em stick, build some decent construction around them, etc,... = feedback
When your idea / feedback is clearly for the betterment of this fine game; DE will support it, and make it happen, soon(TM) -ish.

DarkOvion already dealt with the majority of your post, so I'll just address this portion of it that seems to have been untouched.  

To begin, just because a few very vocal people come to the forums and start saying 'MAKE THIS CHANGE' (whatever it may be), and maybe some people may give that person upvotes, it does not mean that the community, or 'we', as you phrased it, wanted that change.  It means that the majority of people who are content with what they have were off enjoying the content of the game, while the several who did not enjoy whatever they would like to be changed were having what other players were enjoying, changed.  

Last I checked, the forums do not see many 'tales of horror, doom and eternal darkness'; rather, the closest that the forums sees to this is vexed players who either come in with criticism or new ideas, where the majority of new ideas are ignored, and the criticism is used as an excuse to ignore the most vocally loud people without listening to their ideas.  The people who say that they want to quit the game after some sort of change really do not want to quit the game, as they enjoyed their time playing the game enough to care enough to make a post on the forums about it.  However, the fun part of the game that they remembered is now gone in that circumstance, and nobody ever asks these people what they think should be changed; rather, these people are laughed at and ridiculed, which I find to be horrific.  Because people are so unhappy at not having what they enjoyed to have, it generally makes it difficult to come up with a positive idea or way of looking at things, because people have lost their fun.  So, you cannot exactly expect everyone who comes onto the forums because they care enough to say something but are not in a good position to think of positive changes, to have an idea, or GTFO, as you seem to be implying should be their two options.  And then I end up being stuck replying to another post like yours, with me saying the same thing I've said so many times before to others, in response to the same goddamn thing I've heard from others, all over again (I am talking about communications outside the forums with other players, sometimes in the game itself, as you can see from my lack of a large number of forum posts below my name.  But don't worry, that'll change soon, since a lot of my favorite things are being/have been removed and I haven't played Warframe seriously in a while since the game has become so boring, that I may just move over to the forums or quit the game entirely as a mr21).  

DE has clearly not been listening to player feedback for the betterment of the game.  For example, DE has not yet taken out the 'Pistol Master' affinity challenge from Archwing missions.  There are tons of examples of ignored things like this, and plenty of good ideas just getting buried under newer or more controversial posts in almost every category of the forums (which is why I will not be taking several weeks/months/years to dive through the forums and find them all, as I am one person, for whom the task would be almost unimaginably difficult to accomplish).  DE does not review a great majority of the forum posts that have potentially good ideas for changes 'for the betterment of' Warframe; otherwise, in your words, DE would have already supported and made these ideas happen (soon-ish means eventually which means either immediately (due to fervent efforts for change) or never (due to attention to the topic fading), so I'll take that part out of your post for you).  

Edited by shootaman777
RIP grammar
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Overall, the idea of shaking up and removing a very stale "meta" of abusable crowd control effects stacked on top of each other SOUNDED great. Unfortunately, we were kinda depending on these edgy / abuse cases to keep pace with the scaling of the content.

Founders aside, i think as an MR 21 player with 2500+ hours im as veteran as it gets, and this patch has, within a single week, not quite destroyed my passion for the game, but completely removed the feeling it used to have. Where i used to be a powerfull space ninja dishing out punishment and taking on hoards of enemies, i now find myself spending what feels like a third of my mission time picking up teammates and cowering in whatever unreliable cover the maps offer just to prevent myself from getting oneshotted.

With things being how they are, i've seen people who actually tackle lategame content to resort to EVEN LESS interactive tactics than before, hiding in a frost bubble on top of a Molecular Prime on top of a gigantic Ivara Stealth bubble simply to not be targetted by the AI which would otherwise oneshot them. I dont wanna be forced to dash away from combat or drop dead twice per minute, when im running around in absolutely maxed out gear. The feeling of power has completely evaporated now that even the regular grunts suddenly pose a threat if i dont completely change my playstyle even on the more offensive warframes just to adapt for more survivability.

From the pure feeling of the game, this feels like the worst patch ive played on in literally years. The reworks were fun for an hour each before i realized my speed volt now struggles to stay alive and the picked up shields SOUNDS like a decent mechanic until a single Corpus i run past one-shots me through almost 1000 shield and health in the back. It feels like im just waiting to be downed again the whole time.

 

Forget how having to grind more and more for the same progression (cough fusion cores cough) has become quite frustrating, this time the actual CORE FEELING of the game has taken a serious blow. I feel like a whimp with insufficient tools to defend himself unless i stick to an even stricter defensive meta than it was already in play for high level content, if i'm not playing Frost  strictly to have "my little safety zone" (or an invisibility frame) im getting wiped out by enemies i haven't even spotted yet. That can't possibly have been what you were aiming for with this patch. And i doubt scaling down the enemies will help either. Maybe we just need to get rid of players getting oneshotted as badly as they do right now. But that would mean to touch the holy grail of Nullifiers and Bombards. Not sure if you're willing to do that. For right now? it was a double exp weekend and i didn't even wanna play. I tried every day, got frustrated within less than 15 minutes and changed to games i love to hate for their balancing issues like Hearthstone and League of Legends, because they were less frustrating than the sudden feeling of powerlessness this patch has given me. And that so shortly after i've put serious cash into Prime Access(ories) for the first time. Guess those boosters will be almost criminally underused in the near future.

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On 28.5.2016 at 8:41 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

As a group you've highlighted the best of the best, and we've been doing our best to read all of the Hot topics across the forums/Reddit/etc in the short time window following release.

Yes the last Hot Topic in February sure did take a lot of time to read i guess. :>

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22 minutes ago, CarrotSalad said:

I hate when tactical alerts popup because im almost always being forced into a frame like frost, valkyr, trinity or volt to clear it. But at the same time I love when i have useful abilities in missions like snowglobe and electric shield. Its when they become my only option to reliably clearing missions that it annoys me. Tactical alerts in the past and now always punished me for taking a Volt over a frost, or a Saryn over a valkyr.

Its the reason i never do sorties and raids. Because i lose that freedom i have over which weapons and frames i can take to a mission and instead im pushed into the strongest frame in that category. Ofcourse not everyone is at the same skill level, gear level, team composition and teamwork so maybe we need a match making system that scales mission difficulty to the skills, loadout and composition consistency of groups.

My experience in dragon nest raising the skill ceiling (at lvl 50) really had a negative effect on the game, fed toxicity in the community and decreased the consistency of getting quality public partys. It also broke apart my guild 2 times as we could'nt take everyone to clear every dungeon as they'd all invested in different classes and some classes were too weak in any composition. This combined with small issues in the game outside players and developers control will become very big and destructive if you raise the skill ceiling too high for people to adjust in multiplayer. (things like player ping, pc lag, frame choice, mod loadouts, weapon loadouts, communication.)

These forums are scary the past 2 days because im seeing people try and snowball the nerfs with calls for abilitys like ripline and snowglobe get removed or blocked from being used for clearing objectives. Theres so much scare mongering that its pushing people's panic buttons including my own *I better post now* before my favourite ability and/or frame gets butchered.

Well, for this tac alert, Saryn is just a bad idea to use in the first place, given that Corpus machines have damage received reductions to viral and toxin (and shields make corrosive not as effective) in Damage 2.0.  So not being able to use Saryn here is just because of the specific tac alert, not really for any other particular reason.  

Your experience in Dragon Nest, as you are describing it, seems to agree with Warframe in that the way that the game is managed is potentially largely destructive to the game itself.  Ignoring the possibility of swapping Warframe to a different one, players face the same issues here, in that their favorite/main/best Warframes get nerfed in ways that take them out of squads due to a lack of usefulness, making the experience of Warframe less desirable for said player.  Returning to the possibility of swapping Warframe to a different one, a player is often left being forced to pick a Warframe that they do not like to use and grinding through tedious content with it for a chance, an RNG-based chance, at getting what they want.  This is also less desirable by said player.  Essentially, players who main meta Warframes in this game will usually always be happy due to their usefulness, and the ones that do not main/favorite the meta Warframes will have to deal with severe disappointments.  Is this fair?  That's not for me to judge.  But you seem to agree with me on this point, due to your second paragraph.  

I agree with you on your last point as well.  By the same token, I have gone through every post on the Mirage nerf thread and responded to the vast majority of them, essentially doing DE's job by talking to the community and finding out what they'd like to see (as opposed to just reading through forum posts for feedback, which is not always there, since sometimes the only feedback people give is that they dislike the changes or the game, which apparently is seen as 'bad' compared to someone who says 'Good job, DE', and the criticism is ignored or ridiculed for that reason), as she is one of my absolute favorite Warframes who has just had her only endgame usage in organised squads removed, and people are saying "Good job, DE", which I happen to have a problem with, and I ask questions as to why they think DE did a good job, engaging these people in a rational discussion using facts, and offering opinions as opinions, not facts (and hopefully being heard by people who can affect real change, such as someone in the DE staff).  I feel you, in other words.  There are many people out there on the forums who want to get rid of my fun, and they've succeeded for so long, that now I am also stuck panicking and trying to salvage what is left of a good thing on the forums, so that when and/or if the DE staff ever gets around to reviewing forum posts, they will not see a blanket review of 'Good job, DE' or 'I want to quit the game now' - they will see that there is discord, and people mentioning alternatives that they are trying to work with other members of the community to make even more viable.  

Also, can you please link the posts to get rid of ripline and snowglobe?  I'd like to also help you work against that, as I believe those things to be a terrible idea, and that the propagation of endlessly swinging the nerf hammer around is being done in the wrong direction -  it should be done at the enemies first, as opposed to when every bit of content below a certain difficulty has been 'trivialised' by something because it is simply too easy to begin with and there is a response of a blanket difficulty-increase nerf, I would argue that what should happen is that only when everything becomes 'trivialised' by something, we should be nerfed, as that is balance.  

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Just now, shootaman777 said:

Well, for this tac alert, Saryn is just a bad idea to use in the first place, given that Corpus machines have damage received reductions to viral and toxin (and shields make corrosive not as effective) in Damage 2.0.  So not being able to use Saryn here is just because of the specific tac alert, not really for any other particular reason.  

 

The saryn/valkyr comment was in relation to a past Hive tactical alert, not the current one. I could'nt remember which frames i brought to every past tactical alerts. There was a capture one once where i literally tried every frame i had and kept failing. Switched to valkyr and got through with a struggle.

It was nice to see dragon nest move away from that direction at the level 70 cap and further away from it at level 80-90 where the game is now.

I think the comments about removing abilities like ripline are in the official feedback to valkyr and update 18.3 threads. But cant be too sure because theres just so many around the forums. I'll drop a pm to you if i come across them.

Edited by CarrotSalad

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30 minutes ago, Jukantos said:

Overall, the idea of shaking up and removing a very stale "meta" of abusable crowd control effects stacked on top of each other SOUNDED great. Unfortunately, we were kinda depending on these edgy / abuse cases to keep pace with the scaling of the content.

Founders aside, i think as an MR 21 player with 2500+ hours im as veteran as it gets, and this patch has, within a single week, not quite destroyed my passion for the game, but completely removed the feeling it used to have. Where i used to be a powerfull space ninja dishing out punishment and taking on hoards of enemies, i now find myself spending what feels like a third of my mission time picking up teammates and cowering in whatever unreliable cover the maps offer just to prevent myself from getting oneshotted.

With things being how they are, i've seen people who actually tackle lategame content to resort to EVEN LESS interactive tactics than before, hiding in a frost bubble on top of a Molecular Prime on top of a gigantic Ivara Stealth bubble simply to not be targetted by the AI which would otherwise oneshot them. I dont wanna be forced to dash away from combat or drop dead twice per minute, when im running around in absolutely maxed out gear. The feeling of power has completely evaporated now that even the regular grunts suddenly pose a threat if i dont completely change my playstyle even on the more offensive warframes just to adapt for more survivability.

From the pure feeling of the game, this feels like the worst patch ive played on in literally years. The reworks were fun for an hour each before i realized my speed volt now struggles to stay alive and the picked up shields SOUNDS like a decent mechanic until a single Corpus i run past one-shots me through almost 1000 shield and health in the back. It feels like im just waiting to be downed again the whole time.

 

Forget how having to grind more and more for the same progression (cough fusion cores cough) has become quite frustrating, this time the actual CORE FEELING of the game has taken a serious blow. I feel like a whimp with insufficient tools to defend himself unless i stick to an even stricter defensive meta than it was already in play for high level content, if i'm not playing Frost  strictly to have "my little safety zone" (or an invisibility frame) im getting wiped out by enemies i haven't even spotted yet. That can't possibly have been what you were aiming for with this patch. And i doubt scaling down the enemies will help either. Maybe we just need to get rid of players getting oneshotted as badly as they do right now. But that would mean to touch the holy grail of Nullifiers and Bombards. Not sure if you're willing to do that. For right now? it was a double exp weekend and i didn't even wanna play. I tried every day, got frustrated within less than 15 minutes and changed to games i love to hate for their balancing issues like Hearthstone and League of Legends, because they were less frustrating than the sudden feeling of powerlessness this patch has given me. And that so shortly after i've put serious cash into Prime Access(ories) for the first time. Guess those boosters will be almost criminally underused in the near future.

I feel ya there.  I can't seriously play this game anymore, since this patch.  I've been on only to go a few rounds with friends, not even for sorties (save for today's sorties, which I only did with my friend since he is a huge fan of the Dera Vandal) or the tac alert, since they are now just a S#&$fest, with a lack of reliability that they can be completed.  Yeah, this is just frustrating, and the good feeling of Warframe is just gone, in my opinion.  I hate to be annoying, but do you have any recommendations to fix this, other than the ideas that you mentioned and then immediately shot down?  

Essentially, is what you're saying that unless we Tenno resort to hiding, running, dodging, and using cheap and boring cc tactics, our roles have been swapped with the enemy - we are the ones walking around waiting to die, while we try to get whatever scraps we can and ineffectually fire our weapons at our enemies, in the endgame setting?  

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3 minutes ago, CarrotSalad said:

The saryn/valkyr comment was in relation to a past Hive tactical alert, not the current one. I could'nt remember which frames i brought to every past tactical alerts. There was a capture one once where i literally tried every frame i had and kept failing. Switched to valkyr and got through with a struggle.

It was nice to see dragon nest move away from that direction at the level 70 cap and further away from it at level 80-90 where the game is now.

I think the comments about removing abilities like ripline are in the official feedback to valkyr and update 18.3 threads. But cant be too sure because theres just so many around the forums. I'll drop a pm to you if i come across them.

Thanks.  :D

Also, I've never played Dragon Nest, is it a good game?  

Edited by shootaman777
RIP spelling

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r~ darkovion and shootaman

Didn't I read 'open beta' in Rebecca's post?
Isn't it still mentioned as 'Open Beta' in almost
every article / review I've read/ seen in the last couple of weeks?
Without any announcement of leaving Open Beta or otherwise,
is Warframe considered a full game release?

~ shootaman
We all have different needs, we all want different experiences, etc,..
Clearly, my experience with Warframe isn't the same as yours,
so your 'truth', your little tale of campfire horror, isn't necessarily my truth
aka not the way I experience it
The needs of the many(as per the loud and vocal majority you speak of) outweights the needs of the few.
Politician in Smallville, crusader against [DE]Satan or not, there's no changing the golden rule of society, or of a (small) community.
I've seen quite some topics /  feedback get integrated into the game over the past two years,
on the other things DE makes a stand, and shouldn't they be allowed to; 
it is their game all and all.
And sure, some things have been screaming to be fixed for an update or three now,
most of them are little things but they'll get to it eventually, between the new content they ship out.
The game will still be here tomorrow, no reason to panic.

I do somewhat agree on given opinion about lack of content to keep veterans /MR 22 'hooked'.
Maybe a 'problem' a short break now and then or the replayable quests will solve, or patch up.

 

Edited by worminthewood
Someday, I'll work on my English

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2 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

DarkOvion already dealt with the majority of your post, so I'll just address this portion of it that seems to have been untouched.  

To begin, just because a few very vocal people come to the forums and start saying 'MAKE THIS CHANGE' (whatever it may be), and maybe some people may give that person upvotes, it does not mean that the community, or 'we', as you phrased it, wanted that change.  It means that the majority of people who are content with what they have were off enjoying the content of the game, while the several who did not enjoy whatever they would like to be changed were having what other players were enjoying, changed.  

Last I checked, the forums do not see many 'tales of horror, doom and eternal darkness'; rather, the closest that the forums sees to this is vexed players who either come in with criticism or new ideas, where the majority of new ideas are ignored, and the criticism is used as an excuse to ignore the most vocally loud people without listening to their ideas.  The people who say that they want to quit the game after some sort of change really do not want to quit the game, as they enjoyed their time playing the game enough to care enough to make a post on the forums about it.  However, the fun part of the game that they remembered is now gone in that circumstance, and nobody ever asks these people what they think should be changed; rather, these people are laughed at and ridiculed, which I find to be horrific.  Because people are so unhappy at not having what they enjoyed to have, it generally makes it difficult to come up with a positive idea or way of looking at things, because people have lost their fun.  So, you cannot exactly expect everyone who comes onto the forums because they care enough to say something but are not in a good position to think of positive changes, to have an idea, or GTFO, as you seem to be implying should be their two options.  And then I end up being stuck replying to another post like yours, with me saying the same thing I've said so many times before to others, in response to the same goddamn thing I've heard from others, all over again (I am talking about communications outside the forums with other players, sometimes in the game itself, as you can see from my lack of a large number of forum posts below my name.  But don't worry, that'll change soon, since a lot of my favorite things are being/have been removed and I haven't played Warframe seriously in a while since the game has become so boring, that I may just move over to the forums or quit the game entirely as a mr21).  

DE has clearly not been listening to player feedback for the betterment of the game.  For example, DE has not yet taken out the 'Pistol Master' affinity challenge from Archwing missions.  There are tons of examples of ignored things like this, and plenty of good ideas just getting buried under newer or more controversial posts in almost every category of the forums (which is why I will not be taking several weeks/months/years to dive through the forums and find them all, as I am one person, for whom the task would be almost unimaginably difficult to accomplish).  DE does not review a great majority of the forum posts that have potentially good ideas for changes 'for the betterment of' Warframe; otherwise, in your words, DE would have already supported and made these ideas happen (soon-ish means eventually which means either immediately (due to fervent efforts for change) or never (due to attention to the topic fading), so I'll take that part out of your post for you).  

Ain't it funny how people either strawman or just outright ignore constructive criticism and turn it into "quit complaining" or "QQ harder" type post? It's like the see a few paragraphs and go "i ain't readin' that" so they go straight to the dudes with 1-5 sentnces and reply to them while generalizing the whole thread and or community. Mad condescending people on Warframe lol.

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37 minutes ago, worminthewood said:

r~ darkovion and shootaman

Didn't I read 'open beta' in Rebecca's post?
Isn't it still mentioned as 'Open Beta' in almost
every article / review I've read/ seen in the last couple of weeks?
Without any announcement of leaving Open Beta or otherwise,
is Warframe considered a full game release?

In a few articles maybe, though none I've seen.

In the OP of this thread, yes it was mentioned, occasionally on the forums or maybe in Prime Times and such.

But in all official release documents, download pages, in every game page, patch note, legal document, it's strangely absent.

This means everyone that doesn't explicitly go digging, or happens across the information in some vaguely official aspect, will believe it a full game.

It has a full cash shop, 4 expensive packs a year... who would think this is a beta.

So far it looks like they want people to think it's a full release title, and all the 'safeties' that provides, with the buried line of 'it's a beta' if anything happens.

 

 

 - To clarify, I'm not hating on the game here, or even really DE.

I enjoy the game mostly, apart from the recent massive increase in grind (that results in all I have left to do are 20-40+ hour grind fests for me to do, which has led to me playing almost nothing).

But this is a very strange practice, that has some very negative connotations about ethics attached.

Edited by DarkOvion
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I really like it that DE is trying there best to bring back the balance in this game. For a game like this, there shouldnt be any real meta. Like I get it for weapons but for the warframes themselves. it is pointless cause each warframe acts differently and shouldnt necessarily make some better then others overall. So DE keep up the good work that u have been doing.

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I wonder how many people who say that this update is fine stay in survivals pass 30-40Mins it seems like those may be the "need to level up anything lemme go to Draco" who sit there for 4 wave intervals and claim OP'dness. I remember the first time i stayed in a survival past 30mins, it was on Apollodorus(don't judge me it was a while ago) I had my Hydroid and learned to respect my team as well as the Almighty Queen Dutchess Trinity who save me numerous times from Davy Jones Locker. That was the day i realised "damn theres a whole 'nother level tough enemies" With my Hydroid Grinlok and Marelok i also learned Status over Crit but now i usually carry a status chance, a crit, and my secondary is usually raw damage. From then on i started doing more Tower Missions and being the guy i am i often do them without much coordination (i play music so i don't hear if my teammates have mic) i remember practicing with different Warframes and learning that no matter howw i cheese the enemy they themselves are Kraft Mac n'cheese cheesy with xtra cheese. I realised that the Devs whether intentional or not tend to favor some Warframes over others, you will never know how squishy a Warframe is until you don't have Dutchess Trinity to heal your sorry &#!.

 

Where i'm getting at with this rambling is that for those who like a challenge every now and again when they decide to do a mission of endgame level difficulty they are limited to what Frames they can choose if they want to help their team go 1hr+ In a survival or 50-60 waves in a defense or even 20 waves interception. And with each "update" they either Almighty Buff certain Frames to make them all that people choose or they Shun Goku Nerf other Frames to the point where they are pretty much useless (remember duration + power strength snowglobe?) and lets not forget the times when most Warframes were 1-trick ponies, some Frames still are. 

 

I'm just posting meaningful well thought-out criticism hoping that someone sees this and if they work for DE or can get in touch with them can and just let them know that there are some hurt longtime fans here wondering if this is the fall of DE? It may seem like i'm exaggerating but it seems like they either do things &#! backwards or listen to the wrong people. I just don't want them to go down the same road as DCUO with their "hey checkout this shiny turd" updates that introduce new bugs and glitches into the game that ultimately take a place next to the old bugs that never get fixed or the old powers that get buffed to OP'dness or Nerfed to oblivion. 

 

Another thing, you shouldn't have to coordinate a team when doing regular missions or even sorties. Everyone should already know that the objective is to do the mission one-and-done but it seems the community lacks difference. Everyone wants to pick a Killframe for missions where kills aren't even necessary and this stems from nerfing good rarely used frames and buffing overused frames i shouldn't be the only one in a MD who is not Ash.

*End Rant*

Edited by (PS4)panellgpierre

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1 hour ago, (PS4)panellgpierre said:

Ain't it funny how people either strawman or just outright ignore constructive criticism and turn it into "quit complaining" or "QQ harder" type post? It's like the see a few paragraphs and go "i ain't readin' that" so they go straight to the dudes with 1-5 sentnces and reply to them while generalizing the whole thread and or community. Mad condescending people on Warframe lol.

Agreed, it's very comical.  So comical that I'd like to tell a joke to the players' who do it's faces, with my fist.  So very comical, indeed.  ;)

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10 hours ago, BCAW said:

Out of everything I wrote, you choose to question a word I used once. Very well, I shall rephrase.

"We, a large portion of the playerbase."

Am I politically correct now?

And if you wish to continue with criticizing my opinion, try picking something with more substance please, thank you.

Cheers.

no speak for only yourself

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32 minutes ago, (PS4)panellgpierre said:

I wonder how many people who say that this update is fine stay in survivals pass 30-40Mins it seems like those may be the "need to level up anything lemme go to Draco" who sit there for 4 wave intervals and claim OP'dness. I remember the first time i stayed in a survival past 30mins, it was on Apollodorus(don't judge me it was a while ago) I had my Hydroid and learned to respect my team as well as the Almighty Queen Dutchess Trinity who save me numerous times from Davy Jones Locker. That was the day i realised "damn theres a whole 'nother level tough enemies" With my Hydroid Grinlok and Marelok i also learned Status over Crit but now i usually carry a status chance, a crit, and my secondary is usually raw damage. From then on i started doing more Tower Missions and being the guy i am i often do them without much coordination (i play music so i don't hear if my teammates have mic) i remember practicing with different Warframes and learning that no matter howw i cheese the enemy they themselves are Kraft Mac n'cheese cheesy with xtra cheese. I realised that the Devs whether intentional or not tend to favor some Warframes over others, you will never know how squishy a Warframe is until you don't have Dutchess Trinity to heal your sorry &#!.

 

Where i'm getting at with this rambling is that for those who like a challenge every now and again when they decide to do a mission of endgame level difficulty they are limited to what Frames they can choose if they want to help their team go 1hr+ In a survival or 50-60 waves in a defense or even 20 waves interception. And with each "update" they either Almighty Buff certain Frames to make them all that people choose or they Shun Goku Nerf other Frames to the point where they are pretty much useless (remember duration + power strength snowglobe?) and lets not forget the times when most Warframes were 1-trick ponies, some Frames still are. 

 

I'm just posting meaningful well thought-out criticism hoping that someone sees this and if they work for DE or can get in touch with them can and just let them know that there are some hurt longtime fans here wondering if this is the fall of DE? It may seem like i'm exaggerating but it seems like they either do things &#! backwards or listen to the wrong people. I just don't want them to go down the same road as DCUO with their "hey checkout this shiny turd" updates that introduce new bugs and glitches into the game that ultimately take a place next to the old bugs that never get fixed or the old powers that get buffed to OP'dness or Nerfed to oblivion. 

 

Another thing, you shouldn't have to coordinate a team when doing regular missions or even sorties. Everyone should already know that the objective is to do the mission one-and-done but it seems the community lacks difference. Everyone wants to pick a Killframe for missions where kills aren't even necessary and this stems from nerfing good rarely used frames and buffing overused frames i shouldn't be the only one in a MD who is not Ash.

*End Rant*

Let's go with 'they listen to the wrong people', because if DE just does things bass ackwards, then we're wasting our time trying to be useful on the forums.  Let's hope that this is not the case. :)

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1 minute ago, hazerddex said:

no speak for only yourself

Well, the player is technically politically correct in their speech now.  However, you're absolutely correct - they are making a hasty generalization of the community's opinion based on their own to try to make their opinion seem more important or valid.  Thank you for being a fine, upstanding citizen and pointing this out.  

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8 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

no speak for only yourself

Unless you wish to provide counter-evidence to what I am stating, you cannot claim my statement to be false.

Sure, there may be some people who do not understand DE's business model, or strongly disagree with it, give the maturity of most players who frequent this forum, it is safe to assume that a large portion (not even "relatively large", mind you) can understand DE's business model and are not overtly against it. I am sorry that I do not represent you; perhaps you would like to represent yourself here and post something constructive to the topic at hand, which is the discussion of the recent patch, instead of picking on word usage that do not detract from the meaning of the whole exposition?

Have a good day.

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9 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Well, the player is technically politically correct in their speech now.  However, you're absolutely correct - they are making a hasty generalization of the community's opinion based on their own to try to make their opinion seem more important or valid.  Thank you for being a fine, upstanding citizen and pointing this out.  

Thank you for being constructive in your criticism. To my own defense, the generalization I've made is an educated one, based on what I've seen over the one year I've been playing this game. If you wish for me to present evidence, I regret to inform you that I do not have the time to go back to every post I've read or recall every conversation I've had in region chat in game. That being said, given how tense the forum is these days, I will remember to treat every post I make like an graded essay from now on.

Best regards.

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3 minutes ago, BCAW said:

Unless you wish to provide counter-evidence to what I am stating, you cannot claim my statement to be false.

Sure, there may be some people who do not understand DE's business model, or strongly disagree with it, give the maturity of most players who frequent this forum, it is safe to assume that a large portion (not even "relatively large", mind you) can understand DE's business model and are not overtly against it. I am sorry that I do not represent you; perhaps you would like to represent yourself here and post something constructive to the topic at hand, which is the discussion of the recent patch, instead of picking on word usage that do not detract from the meaning of the whole exposition?

Have a good day.

Actually, that's where you're wrong.  If you make a statement without proof, nobody has to prove you wrong; you have to prove that you have a valid argument before people have to debunk it to prove that it is wrong.  As I said to hazerddex: 

11 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Well, the player is technically politically correct in their speech now.  However, you're absolutely correct - they are making a hasty generalization of the community's opinion based on their own to try to make their opinion seem more important or valid.  Thank you for being a fine, upstanding citizen and pointing this out.  

The player that I am referring to is you.  I agreed personally with some of your argument/post, but the fact that you lumped me in the same category as you when I obviously disagree with you just goes to show how fallacious your argument is.  After all, if you say that players agree with you and understand DE, there would be no dissent if you were correct, after all.  And here's some dissent for you.  Enjoy.  :)

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Deleted a post. was supposed to be directed to shootaman, but, after some consideration, I do believe it was not necessary, as I do not wish to make enemies.

Edited by BCAW

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3 minutes ago, BCAW said:

Thank you for being constructive in your criticism. To my own defense, the generalization I've made is an educated one, based on what I've seen over the one year I've been playing this game. If you wish for me to present evidence, I regret to inform you that I do not have the time to go back to every post I've read or recall every conversation I've had in region chat in game. That being said, given how tense the forum is these days, I will remember to treat every post I make like an graded essay from now on.

Best regards.

Thank you for the warm regards in response to the not-so-warm icily cold criticism that I gave your post.  However, I would say that if you're going to make an educated generalization based on experience, then you may want to clarify it as such originally, as it had the appearance of being a hasty generalization based on nothing, since there was no clarification.  

Agreed, the forums are just a bunch of lit powder kegs waiting to go off, these days.  And I can't deny that I've been contributing to that.  But I would say that a tense forum that will hear everyone out but call them out in any possible way, would be a far more desirable one than one where people will state opinions as fact and people who read these peoples' posts believe these players.  This is the situation that the forums currently face, one that I hope will eventually be remedied (I am not referring to you necessarily here, just in general, as I've spent about 11 hours in a row all day today responding to people who are doing exactly that).  

I thank you for your kind, poignant response.  

Have a nice day/afternoon/evening, wherever this reply may find you.  

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2 minutes ago, BCAW said:

I've never stated there would be no dissent. After the revision, courtesy of hazerddex, I am only stating that a large portion of the player base are not in disagreement with DE's business model, which does not mean that players with dissent does not exist.

Anyhow, I believe we've strayed far enough from the topic at hand. So, to provoke constructive conversation, allow me to ask, since you seem to be stating you have dissent with DE's business model: do you think the business model is affecting game balance? Is DE purposely making it hard for us to get things we want through changes like the ones included in the recent patch, and should that prove to be true, does that attitude need changing?

I can say for sure that, in my opinion, the business model has affected the game in the past, especially when it comes to Warframes and weapons that are kept non-nerfed, or other things are nerfed in their place until sales decrease due to being the most purchased object in its category, as Mesa was before the Peacemaker nerf, when it went from the most used Warframe to the least used Warframe overnight, an outcome that DE knew would occur.  Whether or not the business model impacts the current game, I cannot say, as I am probably too close to this issue as a player currently to give an unbiased opinion on the subject.  However, in my biased opinion, I would say that DE is somewhat going against that business model of profit here, by nerfing many things that players hold dear with only blanket promises to do the same to enemies, the likes of which DE has a history of not coming through on.  

In my opinion (AS IN, ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IS MY OPINION),

DE is making it harder for players to obtain items, even while DE has stated that they try to reduce grinding (which, considering my idea below, may really be true with the creation of an artificial skill wall to make some missions impossible to grind for some players, technically reducing the grind.  I sure hope that I am wrong).  This is especially so with the recent nerfs, which have been less of nerfs to individual Warframes (which I see as a diversion from the real issue, even though the nerfs themselves are real issues), and more of blanket nerfs to anything that makes endgame content easier to the the point where it can be reliably and efficiently farmed by anyone with a certain set of items and mods.  Essentially, this is DE's way of making rewards for completing endgame missions more exclusive.  I could go on and on with 'conspiracy talk' about the 'business model' and get myself marginalized, so I'll just say this:  what happens to more exclusive things?  The price goes up.  This will be no exception in the Warframe player market, where players who need more luck and skill to complete harder endgame missions (including JV raids, because holy S#&$, the Blessing nerf blew JV raids to pieces in terms of difficulty) will be the only ones getting the rewards from said missions, leaving them in a position to sell them to newer players for more platinum than ever, and increasing the amount of platinum purchases for newer players who want endgame rewards.  In addition, this creates a rift between newer and veteran players for this reason of exclusiveness, potentially making the game have a few, tight-knit groups of endgame players who keep their strategies and builds secret from newer players so they can make this extra platinum off of them, to hoard platinum in the hopes of owning a prestigious Primed Chamber or something like that.  Who knows, that could be right, but I could also be crazy, right?  

I do not know DE's attitude, so I cannot offer anything on the subject of whether or not it should be changed.  The only part of the attitude of DE that I see as a problem, however, is how in one of their megathread posts, they mentioned 'players on the forums predicting the end of days', in different words.  They said this in the same or a similar post as to when they said that 'their vocabulary of profanity had increased considerably'.  I would think that developers who marginalises their disgruntled players as 'doomsday predictors' and promote their high-horsed players to do the same to these players, is essentially a way of crushing dissent while either: 

a) pretending to care about the Tenno community's opinions, and picking a few here and there to highlight to say that they really do consider the players in their decisions 

or

b) listening to the wrong people.  I've been a large proponent of the policy to 'enjoy your favorite Warframe content before it gets nerfed', which I suppose has been a large mistake from the beginning, as if DE continues to listen to the same people giving them positive feedback on horrible nerfing decisions, the community and game will both be stuck moving in negative directions.  

I apologise for the time it took to respond to this, as it took a while, and apologise for typing out a book for you to read, and bringing the subject so far off topic that you had to ask the specific questions that I gave my input on here.  Thank you for asking for the opinion of someone who thought nobody cared about other's opinions anymore.  You put a smile on my face and give me hope about the Warframe community that I've become a part of.  :)

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dear DE, concerning enemies cheesing:

it's true scaling is borked and the one-shot-or-be-one-shot-fest in high levels has to be fixed so encounters are more meaningful and engaging but don't buy into the lamenter's claim we are helpless in endgame content now since the recent nerfs. it's complete bs and i'm sure your statistics will say the same... (i'll eat my hat if there will be a noticeable rise in failed sorties and raids post 18.13)

edit: some reasonable enemy nerfs i'd like to propose:

- add laser pointers to sniper units and some form of lock-on warning for (bombard) rockets so you don't get one shot from off-screen without warning... y'know what, while we're at it for dragging enemies, too, please :). also if the latter catch you a way to squirm free of the hold would be cool (by mashing left/right buttons for example)

- speaking of bombards: the corrupted variant's fire rate is way too high. while you do your best (mostly in vain) to dodge one rocket 2 more are already on the way...

- poison circumventing shields is ok but cap the damage at like 2 hp, so only the next major mistake will most likely kill you. having to watch your hp go down til you die with no way to counter it except pizzas is really frustrating.

Edited by Kotsender_Quasimir
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