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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

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The core problem with this update versus the other changes, is that many of the previous changes were QOL improvements. This is a radical redesign and nerf without addressing the rest of the game.

The general feel of this update is "well you will find another way to break the harder unbalanced and unfun missions". Disregarding any of the reasons people in particular played that way. Or generally any of the games flaws that require you to.

Edited by Nariala
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9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

In direct respect to what is 'familiar' with these surges:

There was a time we changed Stamina, voices surged (so sayeth the graph), and then we completely redid our entire Parkour & Melee System. Every time we shake things up – no matter how lightly - the impact is objectively better. We see more people are interested in the game, and more people realize the impact their collective constructive views have on the game. There are a few counter-narratives that often indicate the end of times, I've seen it a lot over the years, but ultimately things come out better and bigger as a result. I'm not saying it doesn't have growing pains, though!

It bears repeating that more changes are coming soon. We will be hotfixing like mad next week, and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it.

I honestly can't think of anything I'd like to be doing more than playing Warframe right now, hashing out feedback together, and getting things ready for the next Hotfix. So if you see me in game all weekend, that's what I'm up to!

Please accept our experimentation - the messy and the clean - and be open to iteration – it's been a big part of Warframe's development and community history. Over the course of each release, you'll find so many of the changes, additions, and fixes exist because of these moments.

-[DE]Rebecca

Sorry lotus, but the nerf to Valkyr, though un-needed and honestly mean-spirited (her armour is useless against things like level 30+ Balistae Grineer, and don't get me started on the [expletive deleted] Corpus nulifiers; which are a pox on the game since introduction) wasn't nearly as horrible as what the coders did to poor Trinity.

Excalibro who had FINALLY become useful and playable for end-game missions; now he's back to being -meh- and only good for low end mission regardless of multi-forma builds.  Then there is what the company did to Mag.  NOT an improvement.  Not one bit.  I've filed tested and she is nothing more than a blue-tinted target.  There is NO synergy with her 'tweaked' abilities and flattening everything to a flat damage as opposed to sliding scale?!  Who's small-minded myopic decsion was that?

Though I WILL say I like 80% of the passives included, but they do not in any way mitigate ruining (yes, ruining) several suits which were FINE as-is.
Full-stop.  End of line. 

Saying players were "trivilizing" is like saying that breathing regularly is tantamount to spamming; Valkyr IS a rage fuled tank: it's in her bloody (pun intended) lore description.  Mag was anti-Corpus; heck, with the number of nulifiers in later stage missions or endless-runs, her polarization power barely netted more than a handfull of kills, IF that... why punish players for using that power (lower the radius, not the scaling damage output)?  Trinity... my gods, WHY!?  She was the ONLY frame capable of keeping a team alive on those nerve wracking and rage-inducing interception and even survival missions with numerous leech / parasite eximus.  50m max? total radius to help players who might, just might DESPERATELY need a boost to shields and health on a spy mission.  Sorry, not everyone wants to bunch up.

We, many of the players will NOT accept the "party line" excuses for this.  Call it like it is; it is mean spirited punishment... unless... UNLESS the next patch is a REDUCTION on enemy powers and the removal of things like energy leeching eximus and the reviled nulifiers.  In which case, fine.
 

Do not expect the majority of us to take this sitting down or sliently.

I know you, personally, really didn't have anything to do with the final decison to implement the recent scatt-storm of un-needed & unwelcome changes, but please do inform the rest of the devs that this is inexcusable as it stands presently.

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Awesome!

Super glad you guys are looking at enemy balancing too. It doesn't make much sense to get rid of ability cheese without also eliminating enemy cheese.

Just one question:

When is the cut off for the console update? These balancing reworks could take awhile and I'm just wondering if you guys have anything planned

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Do support the recent changes. I'm allways up to the idea that the players have to struggle instead of relying on a ability that does all the work. Unbalancing across multiplayer games, at least to me, is the top main factor that made me quit them, everybody wants to see their main character have a chance to be the focus of spotlights, no matter how short it lasts, and unbalaced gameplay ruins that.

All things considered, you do need to be more careful with the rate of released content, time schedules etc... these latest updates felt really shallow in content in contrast to how long we've had to wait for them (and don't pretend we don't know Prime assets are just another instance of existing game content with tweaked status and a new 3d mesh). At least on me that had an unexpected and discouraging effect, all the hype and willingness to see the new content was dead by the time this update came out, started giving each time longer breaks, some so long that I came to realised that maybe I'm not as much into Warframe as I thought I was anymore, so much I couldn't bring myself to complete the Sorties and just droped one of the special Alerts of this weekend... Just reforcing this: It's not the nerfs that brough me down, but all the waiting vs content delivered, not even u19 may be able to fix this...

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Removing several relevant frame's ability that can deal with the current endgame, because it's "cheese" while simultaneously buffing Ash's Bladestorm.

Yup, nothing wrong here, just another day in WF. Wouldn't be surprised if one day Ash's Bladestorm seized to deal dmg and he opened a ballet school with his clones

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I have to say, Rebbeca, i was a little worried.

After 18.13 went up, i was so excited! immediately started trying out the new reworks and discussing it with my friends, thinking of possible combinations or in what kind of missions they could be useful. Then i came to the forums, to give a little feedback (that i have to admit, i rarely come around the forums, but i wanted to give my opinion and help somehow)

And then, i saw a ton of pissed off people who were claiming "excalibur is dead", "Mag is useless", "Trinity is dead", "RIP WARFRAME" and stuff like that. Then i remembered that you said in more than one occasion "Everything is subject to changes!". In the Prime time, in the Devstream and even the redtext say that! That gave me the impression that all of you in DE were expecting these kind of angry and mean comments. And you were so right about those happening. 

So yeah, i was a little worried. I wouldn't like to know that some of my favourite developers out there were sad, angry, annoyed or at least feeling frustrated because of a couple of people who couldn't stop for five seconds and give something good criticism before spreading so much hate. But i guess, at this point, you all know how to handle. I hope! i don't think there's a way to be immune to this, but at least, I believe you all know how to deal with negative comments.

 

I've been playing warframe from around 3 years. U11 or U10 i think (Nekros was the newcomer those days!) and i have to say, every step you mentioned, i was there. And i was so happy to see this game grow, because 3 years ago i was through some difficult times. And you know what? playing your game helped me deal with those. And i even got to make some new friends! we were able to reunite here over Buenos Aires and had a great time between mates and asado.

So! i hope it becomes a game so big, so popular and so awesome that everybody knows about it and any of my friends can join and play. This update was kinda messy and maybe a little unbalanced, but i consider it a first step, and i see it as a patch that may help beginners in the early missions with mag and volt (like that bullet jump vacuum! in times when the carrier was super expensive to get as a Mastery Rank 2, that would be awesome) so, keep it going. I'll still be around supporting you, giving you feedback, talking about you with everybody and cheering you up from here.

It's not much, it's the least i can do to pay you back for these awesome 3 years!

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If DE was a doctor, they'd try to deal with gangrene on your foot by spraypainting it before removing the wrong leg.

Edited by TheTundraTerror
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11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it.

I hope that the dev team will come to the conclusion that it's not just enemy damage and scaling that is causing problems. Unorganized enemy spawns will continue to undermine your efforts to make the game more balanced and enjoyable. If you don't think about how the spawns are affecting challenge and cheesiness you may end up wasting a lot of time and effort.

Even the least powerful enemies can become problematic when they employ the use of dice as weapons.

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12 hours ago, (XB1)NecroEric420 said:

I never got to experience a dagger to the heart like my old buddy used to talk about until now because, im newer... trinity was perfect in every way and didnt need to be touched... i can deal with any other change.... :(

It hurts. It stings. And players RAGE. But it's gaming.

Remember game forums going back to 2001. Onward to the MMOs. Same cycles.

Some changes really do change the game permanently, and that's the worry when big changes happen. It can change too much, too fast and to the point players don't recognize the game anymore.

But at least this is a beta game still, not production (that gets scary!).

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What can I say? I'm here since more than 3 years and I love you all. 

Warframe is not perfect, it's far from it, but I have always have the feeling you're doing your best to make it as close to perfection as possible. 

I don't agree with all your choices, that's normal I think, but I'm always sure that we both love the game so much that there's no way you're gonna let it destroy itself, despite not agreeing on some changes. 

I tend to hate white Knights, but after all this time I kinda learned to be objective with the changes and relax a bit knowing that things will get fixed/changed/improved aiming for the best content possible. 

Thank you DE for the past 3 years and to at least 3 more to come! 

Edited by siralextraffo
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It's interesting that you bring up the stamina changes. I don't feel like I knew you guys very well back then, and I was used to the normal MMO model where we, the playerbase as a collective, were just going to be ignored. I was vitriolic or passionate as you put it. But what really earned my respect for you guys was that you did listen. You took a step back and you listened. I try to keep that in mind when something is tossed in that the playerbase doesn't generally like, and I appreciate that you guys are willing to test waters in the deep end of the pool. Not a ripple but a damn tsunami. 

Obviously we're not always going to agree. Sometimes I'm not even sure what you're thinking. But I know that you listen, and you take how your community feels to heart. I can't say that about many other games I'm involved with. 

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7 minutes ago, LegionCynex said:

Still no info on the Limbo or Bladestrom reworks?

Another day without playing warframe for me

I'm pretty sure it's like 4 am where DE is right now, so I really wouldn't expect info currently, especially on non-workdays.

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5 minutes ago, Spot. said:

I'm pretty sure it's like 4 am where DE is right now, so I really wouldn't expect info currently, especially on non-workdays.

"Non-working days"

two days without warframe for me then

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13 hours ago, Megakruemel said:

woah. That's a lot of forum activity... What happened at that huge interruption after January 2016 were the graph hits the bottom of the chart?

That was when they were rolling out the new forums.  The forums were down for a few days while the update was processing.

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Glad you're going to look into the actual problem - enemy scaling. I've faced lvl 400 enemies recently in very long excavation run, and even with 4 CP their HP was getting more and more ridiculous, every attack from them was lethal despite maximum overshields, 600 energy and QT. I hope enemies will become smarter on higher levels and will require more tactical approach, instead of gaining insane stats that make every weapon to fall off eventually.

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With every update now and then You are balancing one frame to "remove the cheese" but You leave all other frames with similar issues untouched for another year or so. That creates frustration among community and that's the reason people call it a "nerf" - simple example - when Excalibur got reworked and his second ability "Radial Blin(g)d" received a LoS (line of sight) limitation while Mirage Disco Ball (Prism) was untouched yet that ability mechanic was exactly the same.

Excalibur Rework - June 2015 - LoS change for Radial Blind

Update 18.13 - May 2016 - LoS change for Prism

Do You see what I'm trying to say ? I know that balance is a huge problem in almost every online game out there and the amount of diversity in warframes and their abilities isn't really helping. Thankfully this is mainly a PVE game. Just think about the outrage if PVP was a thing in Warframe !

To summarize it all: maybe a change to the way DE is releasing updates should be revisited ? I can't speak for whole community of course but judging by the sheer amount of movement on official forums/reddit and the subjects discussed in them I feel that it would not be a bad think to look upon. The way it works now feels quite "chaotic". We never know which single mechanic or ability will be cherry picked and "nerfed".

TL;DR

One bigger, more organised update focused on changing "cheese" game mechanics / abilities all at once instead of "nerfing" frames one by one every 11 months or so (see my Excal-Mirage example for better explanation).

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Too many times I've read how cool things will be, and too many times I was disappointed afterwords.

People remember "year of quality" and how it turned out.

Right now it looks like you were sure about the changes and 'reworks' and they were almost set in stone. Anyway you have asked for feedback, big part of which was constructive and didn't agree with some decisions. After the patch came, community uproar began and now you realized that something might not be okay with this patch.

I'm sorry, I don't believe big words any more until I see something to back it up. I still have some hope and I want things to get better, but with ever increasing grind (though yeah, we do not want grindwalls and we don't want Void rewards dilution, but we decrease drop rates and dilute tables anyway) I really doubt that.

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14 minutes ago, Tineidae said:

Too many times I've read how cool things will be, and too many times I was disappointed afterwords.

People remember "year of quality" and how it turned out.

Right now it looks like you were sure about the changes and 'reworks' and they were almost set in stone. Anyway you have asked for feedback, big part of which was constructive and didn't agree with some decisions. After the patch came, community uproar began and now you realized that something might not be okay with this patch.

I'm sorry, I don't believe big words any more until I see something to back it up. I still have some hope and I want things to get better, but with ever increasing grind (though yeah, we do not want grindwalls and we don't want Void rewards dilution, but we decrease drop rates and dilute tables anyway) I really doubt that.

I have to agree with this, Im sorry but its bound time I shared my thoughts about this.

Oh wait. I can't..

 

Cuz I'll get banned for dare voiceing my opinion..

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I have nothing against change if it is "for the better" and "for the right reasons"

I'm a day 1 Xbox player and love the game, but the last time you nerfed too many good weapons/frames I left the game.

Why? because you nerfed things for all the wrong reasons. I like playing against high level enermy (100>200+) and need strong weapons to compete without having to use "cheese"...but instead you listen to all these cry babies who get upset at players running around on low level missions and the star chart spamming 4 and waving around the weapons like light sabers killing everything. STOP NERFING MY INVESTMENTS in your game!

Sorry had to get that off my chest 1st. :0/

 

Currant / Planned changes:

EB, you went too far putting on a energy cost to spin attack (the blind) I'm old school and always spin attack for the 2x damage. How about you just remove the blind all together. The other changes are ok as I see  EB used to cheese like a turret as bad for the game.

Valkyr / Hysteria, While I'm ok with the extra energy cost over time, the ending of Hystria hurting you is BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD.

2 reasons:  1: You make Valkyr a grineer only frame like Inaros.  2: Running through a door and hitting a nully bubble that kills you is just stupid let alone those nully guys in corpus....why would I run away from a fight to end hystria???

Trinity / Blessing: I think making Blessing a ranged power is just fine, but to nerf the damage mitigation (yes folks it's a nerf) is once again the "it's Wednesday better nerf Trinity" syndrome.

 

Yes I love the direction your going with the changes, BUT, your going too far again. STOP NERFING MY INVESTMENT IN THE GAME

 

TY :0/

 

 

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after U 18.13.0, I am really not sure if am I going to keep playing this Game or Not after i invested more than 700$ in this game for both my PC and console.

the way they nerf things its kinda frustrating to us players, the real beta testers of this game not the devs.

 

I hope DE will fix their issue because i really really love this game.

 

regards. 

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Hello DE

 This is coming from some one that Plays All the Frames touched by this Update. Not Everything is bad...
Volt was great, could use a damage buff to Discharge or some way to Scale it for late game but still great.
It was not in the Patch notes that his E.Shields are limited to 4 now.

Trinity... 50 meters for Bless ... that's a Medium sized room. The large Cannon Rooms in the Grineer Ship sets or the Large Rooms on Ceres are 2x,3x, or like 4x larger than that. The raid has BIG areas that She now can't reach and the Damage reduction was needed to deal with Raids and Sorties. Blessing isn't the skill that needed looking into. Well of Life is what should have been changed.
I think Blessing should Either have it's range returned to the way it was or at least increased to like 150 meters, Or return the Damage reduction to the way it was. Removing one or the other would have been okay but BOTH wasn't needed.
I think Well of Life should work like E.Vamp in that it sends pulses of Health from the target and shooting them increases the rate

Excalibur Okay So I support making the Blade waves damage reduce over distance .. I actually figured it was a bug that it didn't already. But the Energy drain on the Spin Blind ? ... Just Remove the Spin Blind. No one cares about it when the full Blind is so much more effective. Perhaps just have the Exalted Spin attack do a double spin?

Valkyr The Ramping Drain is annoying. It wasn't needed and in order to Deal with it you have to mod her in a way that you can't use Augments or Armored Agility .. there is no Room for it. So you have the Choice of Weakening Her strength OR have Hysteria last 5 seconds and run completely out of energy and die from the Damage taken from leaving the power... By the way Nullifers and Null Doors do the same thing. But in all honesty this change wasn't needed.

Mag So Mag... Most of the Rework is great, But the one thing that drops her in the dirt is that you set Polarize to do fixed damage to both Shields and armor ... Armor Yes fixed damage makes sense with how armor is applied on the enemies Health. BUT Shields is more of a second life bar and getting up into the level 50-100 enemies .. some can have like 30,000 shields and taking JUST like 500ish of for 75 energy  just does not cut the mustard. She needs to do a percentage to shields like Polarize did Before
Also Magnetize needs to affect the target faster ... as it stands on cast it takes like 3 seconds for the target to actually have the effect and if they are killed during that time .. Well you just wasted your energy ... Also using crush should 'pop' the magnetize fields ( like frost using freeze on Snow Globe ) Because you now HAVE to have more Duration so Polarize actually covers more than 3 meters and you end up with up to four bubbles that absorb all your shots some times blocking the shots on far away enemies

Edited by Dragonofdarkness13
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Valkyr ramping drain doesn't do anything with +30% Streamline and +50% fleeting, i run that set up before the update and it was draining LESS than 1 energy per second, i tested it after the update cus i wanted to see how it changed, both sim and a couple 20-30 mins missions, the drain was still the same, i stood the first 6 minutes taking hits and then started to kill to collect orbs, cus i thought maybe i needed more time in God Mode to trigger the drain...Dunno if it's a bug or not, but with that efficiency set up, it was still 1 en per second max, all in all nothing changed cus i never left the god mod, like i never left it if i kept killing in a sortie 3 survival, 15 mins god mode,extract, profit...

Edited by arm4geddon-117

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3 minutes ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

Valkyr ramping drain doesn't do anything with +30% Streamline and +50% fleeting, i run that set up before the update and it was draining LESS than 1 energy per second, i tested it after the update cus i wanted to see how it changed, both sim and a couple 20-30 mins missions, the drain was still the same, i stood the first 6 minutes taking hits and then started to kill to collect orbs, cus i thought maybe i needed more time in God Mode to trigger the drain...Dunno if it's a bug or not, but with that efficiency set up, it was still 1 en per second max, all in all nothing changed cus i never left the god mod, like i never left it if i kept killing in a sortie 3 survival, 15 mins god mode,extract, profit...

Right but what's your Duration ?
I was running a Negative Duration and Even with Efficiency at 175 , By the time that counter hit 30% I was out of energy

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