A word of understanding to DE

[Artekkor]

DE

I know that recent U18.13 update has brought up quiet a topic for Community to talk about with You, and that many are not happy. And i can understand why.

A certain individual QuietShy even brought up the U15.something, also known as "Viver Accident", also known as "the worst Update in history of Warframe" to a comparsion.

However i also understand that You are trying to make a better game in the long run. People started pointing out why all these changes were uncalled for, especially enemy scaling. But it's not like they had to, aren't they?

I'm 99% positive that Rebecca mentioned dev-team looking at enemy scaling to nerf it too to compensate... Not just for nerfed frames - but for everything. Because i think we can be honest here - level 100 grineer are no fun. They have so much armor that even corrosion procs don't make a difference. This "endgame" never was meant to be played by us the way we played up until this point. Which is why it can't even be considered endgame.

In best case these changes would be brought up simultaneously, to compensate and compliment each other, but i guess enemy scaling changes simply just didn't made it in time.

Which is why i want to remind You - that some players will wait patiently. I waited Rhino rework and Rhino Palatine skin for months. I'm still waiting for PBR to cover everything in the game. I'm waiting for syndicate melees, for better machetes and scythes.

I can wait for a better scaling and balance too.

 

P.S. And i also should remind to Community - patience and open mind are the only 2 things that are required of us in this situation. Devs can't update the game every day to fix things on spot, unless situation is desperate. Bigger changes come with time as a result of small ones.

Give DE time, be open minded, and i'm sure - we can figure this out.

All of it.

 

[Hemmo67]

give this man a cookie :D

*starts baking*

[chaotea]

I like all the changes, so ive got no issue. Then again, my favorite frames have already gone through the wringer (messa and nova). Looking forward to the Limbo changes.

[-CM-Emptiness]

Some of us just don't have the patience haha. I just wish the updates came at the same time, so one party wouldn't have to benefit at the expense of another.

[Tenedranox]

Im playin warframe since gradivus, for those who dont know, thats more than three years and i learnt smth in this time: No matter how bad its looks, no matter how big the S#&$storm was, after some time in the end DE made it great. I remeber the nerfs for trinity, but they kinda reworked her and energy vampire went out great. The problem was, the community found out quite fast to abuse EV and bless. Well, smth DE could have seen in the long run, but they are still just humans. Whenever something gets changed in wf, i know that it will get good after some time. Thanks DE.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

DE didn't delay enemy rescaling. They're doing this in phases. First, they strip out the cheese. Then enemies get adjusted. Then they deal with inflated mod values. If they tried to balance everything at once, they'd have nothing to compare their progress against. I'd assumed Mods 3.0 and Damage 3.0 were a ways out, but maybe they're closer than I expected.

[-CM-Emptiness]

6 minutes ago, Dragonblack175 said:

Im playin warframe since gradivus, for those who dont know, thats more than three years and i learnt smth in this time: No matter how bad its looks, no matter how big the S#&$storm was, after some time in the end DE made it great. I remeber the nerfs for trinity, but they kinda reworked her and energy vampire went out great. The problem was, the community found out quite fast to abuse EV and bless. Well, smth DE could have seen in the long run, but they are still just humans. Whenever something gets changed in wf, i know that it will get good after some time. Thanks DE.

I don't know about this... I mean this is suggesting that we can't focus on building or searching for the perfect build to a certain frame because they will always be susceptible to change, typically altering the mechanics that support that build. It kinda reminds me of Valve, which some of you might know, but they completely reworked CS:S in a quite large update one day, and it did cause an uproar among the community, much like we are seeing in these forums. Basically, people felt cheated for their money that they had invested in a game which practically evolved out of the traditional boundaries of the simplicity that defines CS. Now, that being said, I don't invest in this game, so I won't comment too much on it, but those of you that do pay may probably feel cheated when your favorite frames / weapons are essentially redesigned after your investments into them. I won't take sides this time, because its quite simply, bad game design. If only DE could test thoroughly and release content that didn't require them to rework, it would just be in perfect synergy with the pre-released content... Ah, if that day will ever come...

[(PSN)robotwars7]

35 minutes ago, Artek94 said:

, unless situation is desperate.

it kind of is, or at least people are making it seem that way. but patience/ an open mind? on the INTERNET? you've better chance of asking for a million dollars and receiving it via the internet, than getting people to be patient via the Internet.

[NightBlitz]

4 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

Now, that being said, I don't invest in this game, so I won't comment too much on it, but those of you that do pay may probably feel cheated when your favorite frames / weapons are essentially redesigned after your investments into them. I won't take sides this time, because its quite simply, bad game design. If only DE could test thoroughly and release content that didn't require them to rework, it would just be in perfect synergy with the pre-released content... Ah, if that day will ever come...

the issue is that sometimes content is perfectly fine at first and remains that way for a while, but over time other small changes and some larger ones can cause this to no longer be true. unfortunately this is an issue most games run into at least once. of course this is when they have to go back and work on the old stuff to balance it out with the newer stuff, or rarely, balance the newer stuff with the older stuff

Edited May 31, 2016 by NightBlitz

[(PSN)SALVATIONxCRUSH]

You know what I get sick of is all this lets HUG A TREE ATTITUDE. B.S DE track record is to use box of band aids on everything. Good lord it's simple, people cheese to cheese the enemy scaling. That's it MAINLY (not alway). What my PERSONAL opinion is you fix the heart of the issue first not the symptom.

if they would have done the enemy scaling and then the nerfs presto everybody happy ! 

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, (PS4)SALVATIONxCRUSH said:

You know what I get sick of is all this lets HUG A TREE ATTITUDE. B.S DE track record is to use box of band aids on everything. Good lord it's simple, people cheese to cheese the enemy scaling. That's it MAINLY (not alway). What my PERSONAL opinion is you fix the heart of the issue first not the symptom.

if they would have done the enemy scaling and then the nerfs presto everybody happy ! 

You balance the enemies around the player than the other way around.

Make enemies weaker first? People will lose the "challenge" feel way before the changes to the players, they would get comfortable, used to being too powerfull. When the changes to the player comes that evens everything out? Riot and cries.

Make players weaker and keep enemies the same for a while? We will adapt, get annoyed, but will adapt. When the changes to enemies come, we will be satisfied.

Its a choice between:

1) Bored players, then angry players

to

2) Angry players, then satisfied players

Besides, coding the AI and scalling around the player is way easier.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[YasaiTsume]

People flaming the Forums after a major change are always gonna be well and plenty. 

It's normal for people to be worried, except this time Devs did mention what they have in store next, which is Enemy Scaling.

So much of the flame is pretty much unneeded. 

[PrVonTuckIII]

Hear hear!

[EmptyDevil]

2 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

You balance the enemies around the player than the other way around.

Make enemies weaker first? People will lose the "challenge" feel way before the changes to the players, they would get comfortable, used to being too powerfull. When the changes to the player comes that evens everything out? Riot and cries.

Make players weaker and keep enemies the same for a while? We will adapt, get annoyed, but will adapt. When the changes to enemies come, we will be satisfied.

Its a choice between:

1) Bored players, then angry players

to

2) Angry players, then satisfied players

Besides, coding the AI and scalling around the player is way easier.

This guy gets it.

[shadrad]

I'm sure even posting in this thread will get me labeled as a 'DE Defense Warrior' or something equally childish, but here I am anyway.

A lot of the upset/anger I've seen on the forums has followed a fairly predictable route-- first it's reactionary/emotional, which is expected, but then afterwards it becomes a lot of arguing as people try to justify the level of volatility in their previous posts, or try to find someone/something to blame-- like DE, or the Mods, or the Nerf-Lovers, or whiny players, or whatever else. I sense that DE knows how to pick out the useful criticism from the raging snotfest and leave the rest to burn itself out, so I don't particularly feel that DE needs a whole lot of defending, nor do they probably need reminding that an unspecified ratio of the community is fine with the decision, or will patiently wait for it to be fixed.

But I also noticed that a lot of the anger/vitriol is based on perceptions and expectations that aren't even close to the reality of game development, or in particular, the F2P development structure that DE uses. I don't mind being the A****** who "Well, Actually..." into threads to explain (probably) why DE did/does this or that, or why what they want just isn't going to happen-- because when people don't understand, they make up a reason to justify their anger, which is often stuff like 'DE hates the community' or 'DE is greedy/lazy' or 'there's a conspiracy'. People are welcome to believe what they want, obviously, but I feel like a lot of the community would be better served and enjoy the game more if they didn't have to contend with blatantly false ideas that perpetuate their anger and discontent.

(And this isn't something that affects just Warframe players-- it's a symptom that perpetuates western society, as normal citizens have no need for an awareness of how things work because they can get through life without knowing. Rich countries, first world problems, etc.)

Anyway, props to the people who are upset/unhappy with the changes who spoke up to express it without attacking DE, or other players, or otherwise exacerbating a frustrating situation. Critical feedback is endlessly important and always useful for informed decisionmaking-- rageposting and 'end of the world' hyperbolic moaning isn't quite as effective in bringing about constructive change.

[ComfyOlivia]

3 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

You balance the enemies around the player than the other way around.

Make enemies weaker first? People will lose the "challenge" feel way before the changes to the players, they would get comfortable, used to being too powerfull. When the changes to the player comes that evens everything out? Riot and cries.

Make players weaker and keep enemies the same for a while? We will adapt, get annoyed, but will adapt. When the changes to enemies come, we will be satisfied.

Its a choice between:

1) Bored players, then angry players

to

2) Angry players, then satisfied players

Besides, coding the AI and scalling around the player is way easier.

Or release all of the balancing at once and avoid both situations. We've had these cheesing issues for a while now. Waiting another couple of months to balance everything out instead of just breaking one part of the game sounds a lot better to me.

[Tenedranox]

5 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

Or release all of the balancing at once and avoid both situations. We've had these cheesing issues for a while now. Waiting another couple of months to balance everything out instead of just breaking one part of the game sounds a lot better to me.

It would be great, but nearly impossible to do so, because balancing needs playtesting. If they change everything from a day to the other the game would probaly just break. Also its a f2p game, they have to keep an eye on how to keep the community interested, so waiting for such an update would be quite a pain commercial-wise.

[ComfyOlivia]

Just now, Dragonblack175 said:

It would be great, but nearly impossible to do so, because balancing needs playtesting. If they change everything from a day to the other the game would probaly just break. Also its a f2p game, they have to keep an eye on how to keep the community interested, so waiting for such an update would be quite a pain commercial-wise.

"It would be great, but nearly impossible to do so, because balancing needs playtesting. If they change everything from a day to the other the game would probaly just break."

That's sort of why PC gets the frequent updates. PC players are essentially the extensive play testers. DE does more brief play testing, and us on PC do the rest. So, really, not at all impossible. If it's bad enough to break the game, they can just roll back the update. If they announce that the experimental balancing update is going out, and the balancing may be a bit off, and revert it if need be within a day, it won't be a big deal. Honestly, DE wouldn't have gotten this far as a game developing company if the balancing itself (not the programming) was so off and broken that it would break the game.

"Also its a f2p game, they have to keep an eye on how to keep the community interested, so waiting for such an update would be quite a pain commercial-wise."

I'm a little confused. What are you saying here? DE puts out constant updates and content. That's what keeps people interested. We've been waiting 3 years for them to address the huge balancing issues. I'm sure the game would continue to thrive in the next few months while they work on a big balancing update.

They have multiple teams of people working on different things. People won't get bored because they're waiting for a balancing fix. Content would still come out while balancing was being worked on. It wouldn't be a pain at all.

 

Honestly, players are going to be more upset that they can hardly play any late-game missions because all of their frames are gimped, than they will when they'll have to wait an extra two or three months on the 3 years they've waited already for a balancing fix.

[Tenedranox]

3 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

-snip-

sorry, seemed to got ya wrong, i thought u demanded that they push all resources into this huge balance patch. But like u said, they work on many different things and if they decide to push this update fast forward some other things will suffer, u know what i mean? (also rerolling changes could be a bit hard, because some players maybe would feel robbed)

[ComfyOlivia]

1 minute ago, Dragonblack175 said:

sorry, seemed to got ya wrong, i thought u demanded that they push all resources into this huge balance patch. But like u said, they work on many different things and if they decide to push this update fast forward some other things will suffer, u know what i mean? (also rerolling changes could be a bit hard, because some players maybe would feel robbed)

No problem. The thing is, is that not everyone at DE is able to fit every role. It would actually be impossible to put everything in one place.

We're within a month of at least part of U19. I can imagine after the whole thing is out, they could put a whole lot more into other things.

I get players feeling robbed if they rolled it back. However, if the update contained the balances and the balances only, they'd only feel robbed of the broken balance. And I can tell you with about 99% certainty that more people will feel robbed if their frames can no longer get the job done.

 

[Tenedranox]

2 minutes ago, CoRRh said:

No problem. The thing is, is that not everyone at DE is able to fit every role. It would actually be impossible to put everything in one place.

We're within a month of at least part of U19. I can imagine after the whole thing is out, they could put a whole lot more into other things.

I get players feeling robbed if they rolled it back. However, if the update contained the balances and the balances only, they'd only feel robbed of the broken balance. And I can tell you with about 99% certainty that more people will feel robbed if their frames can no longer get the job done.

 

As some other ppl may have said, balancing isnt only about some number twisting fro scaling, even whole kits could change (buffs) that get change again if the balance patch hits th servers again, but i dont know why we are discussion such a thing ^^ DE is aware of this demand and we cant speed it up anyway, so time will tell

[Eminem2420]

I agree. I am pretty sure they are well aware of what people want and the issues they need to address. I find no point in making rage posts screaming at DE. These posts don't help anything, nor do they speed anything along. Patience is key.

[Rhelic]

After reading through all the feedback for the reworked frames, this is the most beautiful thing I have seen today.  Thank you.

[texrei]

At least the game feels a little bit new for now. New tactics, new debates, good old warframes in missions. I like the fact that something changes, even if i disagree with the direction.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

8 hours ago, Artek94 said:

recent U18.13 update has brought up quiet a topic for Community to talk about with You, and that many are not happy. And i can understand why.

However i also understand that You are trying to make a better game in the long run. People started pointing out why all these changes were uncalled for, especially enemy scaling.

In best case these changes would be brought up simultaneously, to compensate and compliment each other, but i guess enemy scaling changes simply just didn't made it in time.

I can wait for a better scaling and balance too.

P.S. And i also should remind to Community - patience and open mind are the only 2 things that are required of us in this situation.

Hey there OP, i don't have to wait!  I can play a cool, fun game or two hundred right now!

There are plenty of other games out there to play.  If WF game Dev get it together, perhaps I'll play WF again, perhaps I'll get distracted by the thousands of other games out there, several new games of which are in the center of WF's space.  

For example: Sorties that feature bot mobs with huge health pools, OSK weapons and that also nerf player health/shields and restrict players to sniper rifles, bows or rusty melee weapons are NOT fun.   I won't play them.    Other game do a MUCH better job of creating challenge for players. 

It's a competitive game world out there!  Go look around! 

BTW, the perpetual beta thing is getting old.  If you sell memberships and other stuff for real money, your game is not in beta.  WF is not in beta, and hasn't been for a long time.