Dev Workshop Part 4: Hotfix 18.13.2 information & more!

[Urlan]

Some around the forums seem to be acting like the community made the abilities that are getting changed or that the players are responsible for 'cheese' this is illogical. The devs made the warframes with their skill sets to address the enemy scaling so that the warframes would be appealing and useful to players. The real situation is enemy scaling and what it represents to the game. In Warframe the community as a whole and the devs have been making a point of balance. In game design you can't really have balance when both sides are unequal. In our current state, enemy scaling is the elephant in the room and warps everything around it. Enemies start with more endurance, similar damage, and of course numbers on the player characters. This by itself is not too much of an issue as the player can get stronger but players have a limit to their growth; mod slots, the mod levels themselves, and the amount of mod points they have to use towards modding. To have parity between the enemies and players, the enemies can not scale infinitely - they have no plateau - to compete weapons like the Tonkor exist in their current state; Trinity gives damage reduction with her heals; and crowd control that guarantees a chance in matches shows like Mirage's Prism having no LoS when Excalibur's was nerfed to have LoS until the recent patches. While I don't think the previous changes in response to Viver and now due to Draco are the best options; if we address the real issue of enemy scaling, we will eliminate the vacuum effect and the feelings 'cheese' compared to over used answers created specifically to answer those self made situations.

What I propose will take time to implement but should take into consideration proposed hinted re-balancing changes like damage 3.0 easily due to the more robust nature of the already existing nature of mods. I suggest changing enemies to use enemy versions of our mod, mod points, and mod slots system. What this will do is keep a sense of rising difficulty while also creating a power plateau for enemies that already exists for players - nothing in the game will have an infinite imbalance - instead having to make use of mods for their power as we players already make use of. One of the benefits of this approach are its flexibility; ease of understanding of enemies versus players; and also makes more sense creatively why anyone else besides us would want upgrades like forma, exilus adapters, and catalyst/reactors. This allows for instance, the dynamic removal or change of core mechanics like damage mods since to improve statistics, enemies and players will be relying on a similar mod pool, available mod slots, and potential upgrades to represent progression. The hazards of this approach are having to create a dynamic matrix of essentially truly modular enemies with greater potential power as they scaled levels to higher enemy levels and more upgrades, mods, and mod pools become available to the enemy faction to spawn with. I do not think that this is an insurmountable issue however, as I suspect the game already does a bit of dynamic building of entities as is, though this would probably be more draw of having to keep and process an entire pool of enemy mods available for dynamic use based on enemy level. Essentially, for the sacrifice of possibly more overhead, we create a system where the enemy factions can be rebuilt for player challenge presented and while also allowing more flexibility with future mod balance and scaling.

I would be very pleased if this alternative form of scaling would be considered as a potential alternative to existing scaling and difficulty methods or be used to help address perceived character to enemy imbalances and help reduce 'cheese' on both sides of the fence. If we can address the core issues of the game's balance, we can eliminate some of the feelings of betrayal on both sides of the community and help come towards something everyone wants but disagrees on the methods - balance.

[Neo3602]

1 minute ago, --Valkyr said:

Nezha isn't even a healer.

Actually if you hit an enemy with his second ability they get marked and if you kill them while marked they release a healing pulse that heals nearby himself and nearby allies.

[SamuraiPizza]

I'm really glad that DE are listening to feedback. I find the 75% DR cap on Trinity very very fair and the Valkyr thing wasn't really a nerf to begin with TBH. Having said that, I'm disappointed that Excalibur's spin blind still has an energy cost. I'd just prefer that spin blind to go away. You gave players something they never wanted and attached a cost to it that they do not want to pay. This seems to be in the general consensus so I'm not sure why the frankly silly spin blind cost is still part of the deal. DE, please, please do the sane thing and get rid of it.

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Legion216
Edited to not sound like a thankless d-bag.

[keen211]

17 minutes ago, Fifield said:

More specifically the gulf between her and Oberon, Equinox and Nezha is a lot bigger and they'll never be able to compete unless EV is butchered.

 If youre comparing only the healing sure trin is better, but honestly at this point I think Equinox and nezha are better frames overall than trin. Also stop overvaluing EV, any skill that can be replaced by restores isnt all that great to begin with.

[Noteybook]

It's a step in the right direction. While it doesn't fix everything, I appreciate that you actually looked at what people were upset about, instead of brushing it off as "salt".

[keen211]

3 minutes ago, Neo3602 said:

Actually if you hit an enemy with his second ability they get marked and if you kill them while marked they release a healing pulse that heals nearby himself and nearby allies.

 Having a healing skill =/= being a healer. The healing aspect of nezha is so situational that its not even worth taking into account most of the time.

[GreyEnneract]

@[DE]Rebecca

What about Napalm explosions/fire and Bombard explosions going through walls?

Also grenade damage going through walls?

Will the "going through walls" fix also apply to Snowglobe, Tectonics, and Volt shield?

[Fifield]

12 minutes ago, --Valkyr said:

How about instead of nerfing her, we buff Oberon instead?

Because Trinity is seriously OP and making another seriously OP frame to compete with her just unbalances the game more.

[keen211]

6 minutes ago, Legion216 said:

Having said that, I'm disappointed that Excalibur's spin blind still has an energy cost. I'd just prefer that spin blind to go away. You gave players something they never wanted and attached a cost to it that they do not want to pay. This seems to be in the general consensus so I'm not sure why the frankly silly spin blind cost is still part of the deal. DE, please, please do the sane thing and get rid of it.

 The spin blind change was the worst conceived change in the entire update. Its so bad it  kinda makes me doubt DE's hability to balance stuff. The fact that its not getting reversed fills me to the core with salt.

[IceCreamFloat]

I'm quite sure someone has already mentioned this, but the Chroma-Invisible-Effigy-That-Does-No-Damage bug NEEDS to be fixed NOW, before anything else please. Effigy does no damage, can only stun, and is completely invisible except for the head.

[Hellmaker2004]

3 minutes ago, Legion216 said:

I'm really glad that DE are listening to feedback. I find the 75% DR cap on Trinity very very fair

I do not think a lot of people are against the 75% Damage resistance cap, i find it to be fair.

 

My problem with the intended change, if i understand it correctly is the mechanic change scaling from power strength instead of how much you healed.

This would change the ability from a responsive ability with risk and reward design, into a automatic cast every XX second. And that is very boring, at that point all trinity will have is a

1: Blessing that is worthless except to delay waves / stun simaris targets.

 

2: Spamming Energy Vampire to feed you and the team.

 

3: Macroed Link every XX second.

 

4: Macroed Blessing every XX second since last button press.

 

This to me is not fun. I was fine with the last change in calculation. It barely changed anything how i played Trinity except for the range change. This change however will make the ability more boring by being a automatic use every XX second, something a macro can do for me.

[Fifield]

8 minutes ago, keen211 said:

If youre comparing only the healing sure trin is better, but honestly at this point I think Equinox and nezha are better frames overall than trin

This is just nonsense.  I've literally never seen an Equinox or Nezha asked for in Recruitment chat.

9 minutes ago, keen211 said:

Also stop overvaluing EV, any skill that can be replaced by restores isnt all that great to begin with.

Restores:

Clunky as hell, won't even drop half the time.  Only restore 100 energy on the run.  Require you to make a whole bunch between missions.  Team rarely bring any.

EV:
Quadruple the energy, works for whole team, massive range, can be used on the run, disables enemy & even some bosses while you do it.

[keen211]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

Because Trinity is seriously OP and making another seriously OP frame to compete with her just unbalances the game more.

Trinity is not OP, especially after the nerf. She's actually at the risk of becoming one of the worst frames at this point, if all she can do is heal and provide energy then she can be safely replaced by team restores.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

One forma? I'm speechless, thank you sooo much

[Fifield]

Just now, keen211 said:

She's actually at the risk of becoming one of the worst frames at this point

LOL

[SirWolfen]

@[DE]Rebecca Something I would like to bring up about chroma is that we tried to do a 4-man chroma raid and elemental ward overwrites everyone and we only get our own buff. Also I and many people would really like it if chroma actually got a passive and it wasn't the color changing elemental ward as that should be part of the power.

Edited June 1, 2016 by SirWolfen

[--DSP--]

18 minutes ago, keen211 said:

So no revert on the excal slide blind? Literally everyone i've ever spoken to says this change was trash.

Also the change to bless is good but I'd still rather haver unlimited range. Too many ninjas flying around the map for me to keep track of them all.

This too.

[keen211]

1 minute ago, Fifield said:

Restores:

Clunky as hell, won't even drop half the time.  Only restore 100 energy on the run.  Require you to make a whole bunch between missions.  Team rarely bring any.

EV:
Quadruple the energy, works for whole team, massive range, can be used on the run, disables enemy & even some bosses while you do it.

 Using restores instead of trinity is clunky but it allows you to bring another frame such as Vauban who can effectively lock the entire map.

3 minutes ago, Fifield said:

This is just nonsense.  I've literally never seen an Equinox or Nezha asked for in Recruitment chat.

 Because trin is niche for draco and other comps as it saves you energy plates. I'm saying they are better overall, not better at doing trin's job.

[Averath]

Of all the changes proposed only one worries me. The Hysteria change. It sounds as if the aura will keep growing when you're not killing anything, making a lull in the activity potentially lethal?

 

Otherwise the Trinity change sounds great. Having to rely on self-damage felt really bad, and capping the DR at 75% feels like a step in the right direction for the health of the game. I still dislike the reduced range, but eh.

[Xekrin]

18 minutes ago, Legion216 said:

find the 75% DR cap on Trinity very very fair and the Valkyr thing wasn't really a nerf to begin with TBH

Agreed, I played Valkyr just this morning and didn't have any problems at all.  Honestly I think people raged more over the theory than actual practice, but whatever.  This change sounds neat enough.

Sorry about Excal, I don't play him (or have him built anymore) so shouldn't really comment on that, however, since they nerfed his ranged damage, I think a free (or super cheap) blind is warranted to say the least, since he must be closer now.

One forma? I'm speechless, thank you sooo much

Yeah, lol, 3 at least would have been better, but free is free I guess.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Xekrin

[keen211]

3 minutes ago, Fifield said:

LOL

 I'm saying she's at the risk of becoming one of the worst. dont get me wrong she is still good in her current form

[(PSN)VariantX7]

So refreshing we are finally getting a telegraph for ballistas. They're a pain in the butt to deal with in large spaces because you'll likely step into a room see the bombards, scorches  much closer to you and focus on the visible threats, only to get downed by one of these because of how far away she is.  

I think some small buffs/nerfs/changes to some units are in order

Shield lancers immune to punchthrough, can block LoS powers when in guarding stance for himself and any units 3-5m behind him, will try to build shield walls with other shield lancers

 Scorpions have an audio tell when deploying grapple, it has a much tighter deploy angle, will attempt finishers on downed players 

Commanders have a telegraph of some kind, it could be particles switling around the tenno before the teleport, tenno can roll or bullet jump to shake it off.  Commanders are equipped with mareloks or something denoting his rank, and can teleport various kinds of support drones in to buff other units. 

That's all i got for now. Want to reiterate im excited the enemy units are finally getting updated

 

 

[Madshade]

Hello all.

Well i like this game, I really do. The thing i don't understand why are the devs are taking this to extremes every time they change something. I mean there's gotta be a middle ground.

You cannot, you shouldn't, at least in my opinion, never ever go from OP to utterly garbage and/or vice-versa with buffs and nerfs to frames and weapons. I really like the game, i play all the frames, but some recent changes are just to the extreme side. And yes, i do belive that global heal and 99% res, perma blind not affected by LOS and perma invulnerability is kinda OP, but if you are going to nerf that atleast compensate somewhere else so the frame remains still playable. Nerfing the main thing that defines the frame and not giving back elsewhere to compensate is just like throwing that frame into the garbage can.

Cheers

[--DSP--]

3 minutes ago, Fifield said:

LOL

What he said is the truth, you can stay ignorant nonetheless.

Every single reply of yours is Trinity is OP! The most overpowered frame! bla bla bla! How about we stop adding healers to the game and leave Trinity one of the few? If they choose to add new healers, it is not Trinity's fault to preform better/worse.

Also, Overpowered? You've seen WuKong? Loki? And literally any other frames? Trinity is a support frame, it does not have any CC at all, her having 99% reduction Bless is all she is capable of survival.

[keen211]

8 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

My problem with the intended change, if i understand it correctly is the mechanic change scaling from power strength instead of how much you healed.

This would change the ability from a responsive ability with risk and reward design, into a automatic cast every XX second.

 Couldn't agree more.