Dev Workshop Part 4: Hotfix 18.13.2 information & more!

[Wallis_Jenkins]

2 minutes ago, 1deed1 said:

That makes sense, but is a little disappointing since I'll have to level it up 17 times before being able to mod it some more.

Well, since the most efficient way to level a gun is to take only the gun, and no other weapons, running with a gun that has some mods is better that running with an empty gun, since you'd be able to at least kill enemies and gain affinity better.

Edited June 1, 2016 by MalGeffen

[Hierarch-Artanis]

51 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

ALL of this. Guys. Rework MR completely from the ground up. Seperate it from affinity. Reset everyone's MR to 0 afterwards (with grandfather clause). After it sits for a while and you guys KNOW it works- THEN take your time to figure out what should be MR locked where and make forma/MR change. Until MR isn't cheesable just like the stuff you're nerfing- it shouldn't be relied on for anything. If it means nothing (And it DOES mean nothing because of Draco- NO ONE can honestly deny that) then it shouldn't even be given the time of day as a system for other things.

I agree with none of this and the comment that was quoted. Mastery should stay as is, look at it as mastery over the items in game, you've theoretically gained the maximum affinity for said item. Sitting AFK in a relay or on your ship should not gain you mastery points. In the screen shot you quoted I have a 1/3 of the play time and nearly twice as much as everything in his profile (massive amount of grineer kills... draco much?) 

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

59 minutes ago, AntoineFlemming said:

While it's nice to see Mastery Rank have more of an effect on the game, imo it is pointless without reworking how mastery points are gained. You should gain mastery for time spent playing game, not just for maxing out weapons, frames, sentinels, archwings, etc. Look at the profile stats page. Look at all those statistics. That's what should earn you mastery points, not just maxing out items that you might consider "mastery fodder."

Example:

Point being, I don't think it's best to start changing what Mastery Rank influences when you haven't changed how Mastery Rank is gained.

Wow, you really need to get off Draco.  I can't comprehend any other reason why your kills would be so skewed towards the Grineer.

[Kratem]

Just now, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

Wow, you really need to get off Draco.  I can't comprehend any other reason why your kills would be so skewed towards the Grineer.

Don't tell him how to play.

[Wallis_Jenkins]

Just now, -CM-Nobody said:

Don't tell him how to play.

Yes, let the Dracoborns flow.

Edited June 1, 2016 by MalGeffen

[AgentEntropy]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

Wow, you really need to get off Draco.  I can't comprehend any other reason why your kills would be so skewed towards the Grineer.

To be fair, Grineer are the easiest faction to fight and most people enjoy fighting them more. While they scale a lot harder than the others, Infested are very unpopular to fight and Corpus are notorious for being hated for a NUMBER of reasons.

But also Draco exists, although I see nothing wrong with running it as a random public mission rather than the whole "EV/RJ/buff" setup that's so meta these days.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Just a bit more information for everyone comin' in hot here. Rejoice!

as ever - the concept is great, but the amount being given is nuts.

Mastery Rank / 2 == Level that Equipment you've Polarized atleast once starts at...
is much closer to fair (even though even this is still kind've high as you'll be able to Equip most of your Mods at the higher end of the Mastery Ranks due to Potatoes), as it lets you Equip a Mod or two so you can start playing with the Equipment.

but you've gone overboard and basically given Players all of the Mod Points from the start, as soon as they claim from Foundry - this will only exacerbate problems of Players that don't know anything about the game because the game lets them skip the game.
Players should still need to play with the item without any Mods so they understand how it feels and works before Mods, and then decide what Mods to add.

otherwise you're just changing the problem to a different one that is still nearly identical to the existing one, where Players have a way to avoid playing the game to complete their tasks.

[Hierarch-Artanis]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

Wow, you really need to get off Draco.  I can't comprehend any other reason why your kills would be so skewed towards the Grineer.

I know right, his post and those that follow it are so contradictory. Playing the game by going to draco and leveling items for mastery rank... Nothing changes it's the exact same. However I am for the current design as it allows for DE to continue on as a free to play game, and stimulate the economy, by having plays NEED weapons and frames to increase mastery. Player that is content with the starter frame and weapons should not have his mastery rise further than level 2 no matter how many earth missions he pulls off, or leeches his joined into.

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

3 minutes ago, -CM-Nobody said:

Don't tell him how to play.

Look he's throwing his stats out there as an example of how to change mastery gain so that opens him up to an observation on my part, IE that he plays Draco a lot.   I think that's an important observation on his stats so I said something.  End of story.

[Hierarch-Artanis]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

as ever - the concept is great, but the amount being given is nuts.

Mastery Rank / 2 == Level that Equipment you've Polarized atleast once starts at...
is much closer to fair (even though even this is still kind've high as you'll be able to Equip most of your Mods at the higher end of the Mastery Ranks due to Potatoes), as it lets you Equip a Mod or two so you can start playing with the Equipment.

but you've gone overboard and basically given Players all of the Mod Points from the start, as soon as they claim from Foundry - this will only exacerbate problems of Players that don't know anything about the game because the game lets them skip the game.
Players should still need to play with the item without any Mods so they understand how it feels and works before Mods, and then decide what Mods to add.

otherwise you're just changing the problem to a different one that is still nearly identical to the existing one, where Players have a way to avoid playing the game to complete their tasks.

What? how did you come to this? So someone at mastery rank 20 that is using forma doesn't know anything about the game? How is any of that skipping the game? Right now you take literally a naked gun into battle, would you then vote that your current load out be assigned a number and that number being the highest level of content you can play? Mastery rank 12, weapon hot off the press, you have 12 capacity, oh wow skipping the game! someone who is rank 30 and has probably leveled some thousand or so items, should be given the quality of life of making it a much more enjoyable experience than just going on exp runs with a weapon equipped spamming skills for kilsl or buffing others while doing nothing.

[Wallis_Jenkins]

5 minutes ago, Hierarch-Artanis said:

What? how did you come to this? So someone at mastery rank 20 that is using forma doesn't know anything about the game? How is any of that skipping the game? Right now you take literally a naked gun into battle, would you then vote that your current load out be assigned a number and that number being the highest level of content you can play? Mastery rank 12, weapon hot off the press, you have 12 capacity, oh wow skipping the game! someone who is rank 30 and has probably leveled some thousand or so items, should be given the quality of life of making it a much more enjoyable experience than just going on exp runs with a weapon equipped spamming skills for kilsl or buffing others while doing nothing.

More to that, you still need to level gear to forma it or get mastery. You just are granted a way to do it more efficiently. Don't see any skiping there.

Edited June 1, 2016 by MalGeffen

[AutoPhox]

23 hours ago, Prinny13 said:

...

IF our abilities scales with enemies by % instead of just flat numbers then am ok otherwise give enemies the aim of these guys 

:)

inB4 standing still is a better way to dodge than rolling or gliding lol

 

OT: I look forward to the updates. I can understand the forma decision as messing with starting ranks could mess with how affinity is gained in terms of MR progression. Seems fine to me. Although, i still think new gear should start a rank 0 and forma'd gear could benefit from MR, but either way makes sense i suppose. I really look forward to seeing these 'long term goals'.

Thanks for the recent efforts in bringing quality to the game!!

[Wallis_Jenkins]

So 18.13.2 was said to be out today. Any news on that?

[Shadow8600]

I'm thinking it might get pushed back until Tomorrow. Rebecca mentioned it might be on her PC Gamer Twitch stream appearance earlier today, but it's not like they haven't released a hotfix late into the evening before.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Shadow8600

[OniDax]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

Wow, you really need to get off Draco.  I can't comprehend any other reason why your kills would be so skewed towards the Grineer.

I don't play Draco. But I do run Appollodorus most of the time. When I'm not there, I tend to fight Grineer on Earth.

Edited June 1, 2016 by AntoineFlemming

[FoxyKabam]

6 minutes ago, MalGeffen said:

So 18.13.2 was said to be out today. Any news on that?

what you can't smell the DElay?

 

its not friday yet

 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

30 minutes ago, Hierarch-Artanis said:

I agree with none of this and the comment that was quoted. Mastery should stay as is, look at it as mastery over the items in game, you've theoretically gained the maximum affinity for said item. Sitting AFK in a relay or on your ship should not gain you mastery points. In the screen shot you quoted I have a 1/3 of the play time and nearly twice as much as everything in his profile (massive amount of grineer kills... draco much?) 

Mastery as a function of time won't work for the reason you just suggested. But the current mastery system doesn't work either. For example: I would have to use a bunch of equivalent weapons functionality-wise, that are pure downgrades, to get my mastery up.

The most weapons should affect Mastery is by category (get a Rifle to 30, or get a weapon with alt-fire to 30, or get a semi-auto to 30). Perhaps things like Sortie/Raid/Quest completion, achieving maximum objectives for missions, and (revamped) challenges should also be a part.

I don't have a complete solution. But what we have isn't the answer.

[Wallis_Jenkins]

10 minutes ago, Shadow8600 said:

I'm thinking it might get pushed back until Tomorrow. Rebecca mentioned it might be on her PC Gamer Twitch stream appearance earlier today, but it's not like they haven't released a hotfix late into the evening before.

I think waiting is not a problem, as long as it works propperly. Cuz, let's be honest, we may end up with a negative starting capacity by accident=)

Edited June 1, 2016 by MalGeffen

[Stratego89]

52 minutes ago, AgentEntropy said:

I'll point out that resetting everybody's MR to 0 would cause more salt than possibly imaginable.

UNLESS, say I'm MR14 and my favorite gun is the Vaykor Hek. When I'm reset to MR0, by default I can still use Vaykor Hek because I WAS above MR12. That's the only way I can see the reset being acceptable.

Same would have to go for things like the Simulacrum's max enemy level. People who like to test things at that level shouldn't have to work from the ground up and grind for weeks to be able to test things at that level again.

Yeah... see that part that says "with grandfather clause"?

From wikipedia:  A grandfather clause (or grandfather policy) is a provision in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations while a new rule will apply to all future cases. Those exempt from the new rule are said to have grandfather rights or acquired rights.  ...   Often, such a provision is used as a compromise or out of practicality, to allow new rules to be enacted without upsetting a well-established logistical or political situation. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied.

TL;DR- I already said that. Guess you didn't know what this was.

[Shadow8600]

3 minutes ago, MalGeffen said:

I think waiting is not a problem, as long as it works propperly. Cuz, let's be honest, we may end up with a negative starting capacity by accident=)

Agreed. Actually looking forward to this update, so any extra time they need to make sure it works correctly, is completely understandable to me. Even if I have to wait a bit longer for our new clan emblem =P

Edited June 1, 2016 by Shadow8600
quote

[AgentEntropy]

7 minutes ago, Stratego89 said:

Yeah... see that part that says "with grandfather clause"?

From wikipedia:  A grandfather clause (or grandfather policy) is a provision in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations while a new rule will apply to all future cases. Those exempt from the new rule are said to have grandfather rights or acquired rights.  ...   Often, such a provision is used as a compromise or out of practicality, to allow new rules to be enacted without upsetting a well-established logistical or political situation. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied.

TL;DR- I already said that. Guess you didn't know what this was.

Oh, whoops. I am well aware of grandfather clauses, just didn't notice you put that there. Either way I was rather ignorant in that regard, my apologies. :3

Then yeah, that would work logically. It would still cause salt, but in much lower quantities, I think.

[Djego27]

1 hour ago, arm4geddon-117 said:

@djego27, very good analysis i hope the dev team reads it as well not once not twice but at least a dozen times just to catch all the points. we can only hope

I don't really think that somebody from the dev team will read it, I did not get that impression over the last year.

I am all for making Valkyr a interesting melee frame again and actually healing with Trinity instead of just bless on cool down from start to finish. Mag at least since the healer changes in the void did need changes, since her field of use was mostly Trition or Sorti and nothing else(with the self gpull it was good for resource farming, but since the LoS nerf there was little reason to use the frame). However the changes are just a SP nerf(the use against armor is fairly minor, given that you basically need to deplete your hole energy pool for a single armor removal at L100+), not a useful BA buff and overall just pointless synergy stuff that would be not needed at all if DE would fix the augments and make BA really effective to take down groups of enemy units by just moving from one to another.

As for the scaling system, just take U17. It made solo survival, excavation, interception and defence so much more interesting to play since since it tuned down spawn rate and unfair mechanics like getting one hit killed from the other side of the map(ballistas are still broken in that aspect) to a point where it actually became enjoyable content for a skilled player without the need to spam CC. Getting killed in a single hit is not a engaging game mechanic, it leaves you no room to recover or adjust and not taking any damage with specific frames is as well boring. The game simply needs a solid middle ground that also scales into high levels, where damage reduction is good but not god mode, where proper use of CC and movement will let your recover from taking a hit and where you can heal people while playing a healer frame in time instead of seeing them die in single hits.

 

[Stratego89]

9 minutes ago, AgentEntropy said:

Oh, whoops. I am well aware of grandfather clauses, just didn't notice you put that there. Either way I was rather ignorant in that regard, my apologies. :3

Then yeah, that would work logically. It would still cause salt, but in much lower quantities, I think.

NP.

And ofc it will- EVERYTHING DE does causes salt. Only this salt wouldn't be justified... like the salt over the recent nerfs. (Today's trinity change though. Oh boy that is justified but now I digress)

[Nidaria]

On 5/31/2016 at 3:19 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

June 1 Update:

Here comes another Update on Hotfix 18.13.2.

Starting Mod Capacity Changes:

When Hotfix 18.13.2 launches, the starting Mod Capacity for your gear (new or Forma'd) is now determined by your Mastery Rank and if an item has an Orokin Reactor or Catalyst installed.

For example, a Mastery 20 player would experience the following:

• Claim a new Warframe from the Foundry with no Reactor installed.
• Observe the 'Unranked' item and see the starting the Mod capacity is 20.
• Install a Reactor, observe the Mod capacity has doubled to 40.

This is determined by the following:

Starting Mod Capacity = Mastery Rank (if Orokin Reactor/Catalyst installed: x2).

The cap on capacity remains unchanged.

Please note this is a slight deviation of our discussions on how Mastery Rank will reflect gear level, but by affecting capacity it fundamentally enables you to use Mods the moment you get your hands on new gear or Forma an item. Have fun!

 

 

So, you're saying we still have to farm the same amount of affinity to rank things up?

I can't be the only one slightly against this.


I mean, change is good, but at this point you're just putting a band-aid over an existing issue.
 

 

Spoiler

what about that Draco issue you guys wanted to address???????

 

[Hierarch-Artanis]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)WiiConquered said:

Mastery as a function of time won't work for the reason you just suggested. But the current mastery system doesn't work either. For example: I would have to use a bunch of equivalent weapons functionality-wise, that are pure downgrades, to get my mastery up.

The most weapons should affect Mastery is by category (get a Rifle to 30, or get a weapon with alt-fire to 30, or get a semi-auto to 30). Perhaps things like Sortie/Raid/Quest completion, achieving maximum objectives for missions, and (revamped) challenges should also be a part.

I don't have a complete solution. But what we have isn't the answer.

Mastery is a non-issue was/is my point, they offer us something that was just a cosmetic appearance and people find a way to complain about it, just like passive... WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THEM, and yet people complain about a nicety, that thinking is absurd. My question is why should mastery rank matter? Why should it have some great scope outside of items you have accumulated and progressed with? Mastery only serves as a means to further this just distinction... They can take away the mastery gate completely... then what? The current system fits the lore and synergizes with the game... Tenno must have intimate knowledge of a great many weapons to be in a position to use better, you just don't give a new recruit a Prime Weapon in a war, they haven't earned that distinction, they don't deserve it and haven't put in the effort to show that they need something beyond a MK-1 series infantry weapon.

My 2 cents. Mastery doesn't matter, it hasn't mattered for anything obviously, I've seen Rank 3's on draco, I've and hour long survivals and 60 wave defense missions with them, sure they may be carried, but in the end we are all working together, and again mastery means nothing, it's not a skill level, it's just a symbol, the exact symbol you achieve when you achieve the next rank. Wear it as a badge of honor on your chest or back and let all the Tenno know.