DE did not go far enough.

[DuskLegendary]

Then why have a supportive class at all? Might as well just take away our abilities as well and leave us with nothing but vanilla weapons and unforma'd frames, bet that would satisfy everyone. That way nobody could cheese anything at all, and everyone could enjoy dying and failing missions over and over again, everyone wins.

I mean, Trinity herself can't even really kill enemies aside from EV spam, and even then, killing them that way isn't really all that efficient. I really don't want to resort to having to throw down energy pizzas on every single mission, just because our supportive role suddenly vanishes from the game.

Why can't people just let us have our fun? Why does the game need to be so hard to the point that literally everything feels like a job? I just don't understand, so please explain it to me. RNG in this game is chore enough, you can literally do dozens of runs and still maybe never get the part you're after. Now everyone wants to turn this game into... I've not a clue, Dark Souls?

Edited June 1, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[Ibro156]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

yeah, pointed out the same before, the freakiest thing about it is that it's a perpetuum mobile, basically. at the very least she herself should be excluded from energy gain.

That would make sense. Give energy to support your teammates. Making it precious when your team needs that bit extra energy to escape/survive 

[(PSN)jFresh215]

And this is exactly why I never fully buy into the meta of this game. Of coarse i'll try things out and test builds for myself but a game such as this is always in flux. I love that though. It keeps things fresh. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

13 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

+1.

i think fixing the energy economy is of utmost importance for balancing the game, a cornerstone. how even balance out a 100 energy skill against a 25 one if both are spammable equally easy? hell, even ash's bladestorm would be kinda balanced (albeit extremly boring in terms of mechanics) if he could only do it once in a while to clear a room. as it stands differing energy costs are completely redundant really. even ammo is harder to come by...

EV has to go, peroid, just as unlimited pizzas. 5~10 per mission, max. not sure about zenurik, fleeting & primed flow... alternatively drop the energy system completely, just like stamina, it's nothing but a farce as it is now anyway. instead add overheating/cooldown mechanics/whatever.

I have to disagree.  If DE wanted the game to be a mostly shooter game with occasional power useage they would have stuck to cool downs.  The amount of energy we can have isn't a problem.  It's certain powers and their efficiency with some mods.  Tweaking powers would be a far more productive thing.  And the fact that you suggest something DE has already done makes me think you've forgotten about the early days of warframe.  Or you simply feel you know best.  Cool downs forced the game into a slow paced room clear.  People would literally wait each room till their powers were back and then moved on.

 

DE wants a fast paced flexible game that encourages the use of frame abilities and movement.  Cool downs/overheats would not go with this.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 minute ago, DuskLegendary said:

Then why have a supportive class at all? Might as well just take away our abilities as well and leave us with nothing but vanilla weapons and unforma'd frames, bet that would satisfy everyone. That way nobody could cheese anything at all, and everyone could enjoy dying and failing missions over and over again, everyone wins.

again, what's with the black/white thinking? she can still heal the whole team at once and give em 75% damage reduction. i never encountered a game in which support class could supply the whole team with mana indefinitely though. that's just... well... broken. why do we even have differing energy costs i ask you? why do we have an energy system to begin with??

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

6 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

Trinity herself can't even really kill enemies aside from EV spam

link?

[Kevrex97]

Honestly what makes alot of abilities OP is the high values of corrupted mods and because of that ppl would rather make 1 ability OP and make overall playing the frame kinda suck cause the other abilities just wont be able to do much.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

link?

The enemies damage is nothing compared to their health pool. Especially grineer with their armor. Try killing a bombard with link.

[DuskLegendary]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

link?

Link doesn't kill enemies. At higher levels, that skill might as well be nonexistent. Try this on a group of relatively low end enemies, even in the 60s. It barely chips away their health and/or armor. All it really does it further reduce the damage your receive, but by no means does it kill the enemy. Low level enemies? Sure, but I can kill them with half baked weapons.

[Fionntan]

29 minutes ago, Nariala said:

DE needs to set a benchmark before starting to nerf and rebalance everything.

If there is no curve, or no plans for a predictable scaling curve in the future, all of these changes are pointless.  

We can only hope that these changes aren't based on "feel" rather than legitimate data and testing. 

Balancing around with the current curve we have against seems wasteful.

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I have to disagree.  If DE wanted the game to be a mostly shooter game with occasional power useage they would have stuck to cool downs.  The amount of energy we can have isn't a problem.  It's certain powers and their efficiency with some mods.  Tweaking powers would be a far more productive thing.  And the fact that you suggest something DE has already done makes me think you've forgotten about the early days of warframe.  Or you simply feel you know best.  Cool downs forced the game into a slow paced room clear.  People would literally wait each room till their powers were back and then moved on.

 

DE wants a fast paced flexible game that encourages the use of frame abilities and movement.  Cool downs/overheats would not go with this.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

5 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

The enemies damage is nothing compared to their health pool. Especially grineer with their armor. Try killing a bombard with link.

let's fix this, too, then :) ... at least in theory she has an offensive ability.

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 If DE wanted the game to be a mostly shooter game with occasional power useage they would have stuck to cool downs.

and if they wanted us to be able to spam abilities indefinitely there wouldn't be an energy system to begin with.

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

 And the fact that you suggest something DE has already done makes me think you've forgotten about the early days of warframe.

i was j/k with those alternative suggestions, more or less to show: there are none (none i can think of atm at least). i know they're against cooldowns and i understand the problem with game flow.

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

DE wants a fast paced flexible game that encourages the use of frame abilities and movement.  Cool downs/overheats would not go with this.

standing in a sewer, pressing a single button over and over.... fast paced? movement? don't think so. i'd love to see our parcour system to be more important for survival really.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

let's fix this, too, then :) ... at least in theory she has an offensive ability.

and if they wanted us to be able to spam abilities indefinitely there wouldn't be an energy system to begin with.

i was j/k with those alternative suggestions, more or less to show: there are none (none i can think of atm at least). i know they're against cooldowns and i understand the problem with game flow.

That's a hyperbolic statement.  While I can have unlimited pizza (which I don't even use ever) I realistically would never need to spend that much energy.  As most content only really requires what you can find energy wise.  Also they don't want super powerful abilities to be spammed forever.  That's why blinding abilities got line of sight.  and that's why hysteria got an energy consumption increase.  DE can effectively reign in powerful abilities from being spammed by tweaking their performance or their energy useage.  They don't need to kill off pizza's and mods that make energy usage more optimized.

[MattM01]

Why can't DE just propose difficulty levels for Warframe? So at easy your frame can do the full extent of what the skill are intended. Medium they are nerfed a little and at hard they are nerfed as much as humanely possible. In this sense people who work long hours and put many forma on making their weapons and frames to make them exactly the way they want too make them don't lose all that time and effort get burnt out and eventually quit the game. If DE nerfs this game too much more it will start to hemorrhage players(don't believe me read my threat I put up today)on a bigger scale than it already is which will leave it with elite players who play at only elite capacity. Good for you thumbs up to you elite players who will still be here when the rest who do this for fun go to another game. Congrats you get what you want and eventually DE goes bankrupt. Awesome.

[DuskLegendary]

15 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

again, what's with the black/white thinking? she can still heal the whole team at once and give em 75% damage reduction. i never encountered a game in which support class could supply the whole team with mana indefinitely though. that's just... well... broken. why do we even have differing energy costs i ask you? why do we have an energy system to begin with??

Yes, she can heal the team and provide damage reduction, which is fantastic. But at the end of the day, we all know energy is the real money maker in this game. You can have all the health and damage reduction you want, but at some point in the game, it really does become less about your weapons and damage output and more about the overall utility of your frames and abilities. Providing energy is a role we need in this game, because God knows your meager health in this game just becomes a formality between you and the enemy after awhile, so healing becomes a bit useless rather fast. 

In fact, more often that not on Sorties and such content, I find my team getting killed so fast I literally can't get off a Blessing before they die. Which is why I say while healing is great in this game, overall utility of abilities will really be the only thing that save you in higher tier content.

Oh, and of course weapons like the Tonkor, but that's an entirely different beast all together.

Edited June 1, 2016 by DuskLegendary

[7grims]

I agree with you, yet, just like the update they did with all the nerfs/balances, had bad timing to come out, this tread too haves bad timing.

The game is so out of control, that right now, we need OP gear, overpowered gear, we need all the cheese we can get.

Doing a couple of sorties, or raids, dealing with void RNG, etc, is enough to prove enemies are spinning out of control, so much, that if we had proper balanced frames and weapons, playing the game would become unbearable or not possible.

 

Enemy scaling, is the real problem, the devs have to tackle first.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by 7grims

[achromos]

6 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

let's fix this, too, then :) ... at least in theory she has an offensive ability.

and if they wanted us to be able to spam abilities indefinitely there wouldn't be an energy system to begin with.

i was j/k with those alternative suggestions, more or less to show: there are none (none i can think of atm at least). i know they're against cooldowns and i understand the problem with game flow.

standing in a sewer, pressing a single button over and over.... fast paced? movement? don't think so. i'd love to see our parcour system to be more important for survival really.

If they wanted to be the next Destiny, they wouldn't give us such large energy pools, and start giving us cooldowns.

 

Also, not everyone stands in a sewer.  I like being active in the game and actually playing it.  Mixing in EFFECTIVE abilities that are fun to use.  You know what fun isn't?  Firing a gun, over, and over, and over with 10% variation due to weak warframe choice which is what some people in this thread seem to want ultimately.

[Fionntan]

1 minute ago, MattM01 said:

Why can't DE just propose difficulty levels for Warframe? So at easy your frame can do the full extent of what the skill are intended. Medium they are nerfed a little and at hard they are nerfed as much as humanely possible. In this sense people who work long hours and put many forma on making their weapons and frames to make them exactly the way they want too make them don't lose all that time and effort get burnt out and eventually quit the game. If DE nerfs this game too much more it will start to hemorrhage players(don't believe me read my threat I put up today)on a bigger scale than it already is which will leave it with elite players who play at only elite capacity. Good for you thumbs up to you elite players who will still be here when the rest who do this for fun go to another game. Congrats you get what you want and eventually DE goes bankrupt. Awesome.

They plan to add option to pick level of difficulty on the new Star Chart 3.0 so fingers crossed on that.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Also they don't want super powerful abilities to be spammed forever.

do i get your point correctly: overabundance of energy is ok but there shouldn't be super powerful abilities to be spammed with it? well ok then. they'll have to redesign BIG portions of the game then, tho.

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

DE can effectively reign in powerful abilities from being spammed by tweaking their performance or their energy useage.

yeah well ok then they can tone our skills further down for all i care. but energy usage is not a balancing factor with ev around.

[ranks21]

yeah I hope they implement the choice of difficulty option so the nerf brigade can stick with the low tier stuff  where they are comfortable with.. so tired of them ruining Warframe with their constant whining.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

You know the end of this is somewhere in 2018, where it will eventually fall upon "wall latch" being called OP. Movement 2.0 will be argued to death in hopes of its  removal, leading to the end of sprint, due to running being too game breaking.

I expect even then that some will not be satisfied without atleast a good molesting of the crosshairs in the HUD with it's assisting of noobs.  

Edited June 1, 2016 by (PS4)FriendSharkey

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

do i get your point correctly: overabundance of energy is ok but there shouldn't be super powerful abilities to be spammed with it? well ok then. they'll have to redesign BIG portions of the game then, tho.

yeah well ok then they can tone our skills further down for all i care. but energy usage is not a balancing factor with ev around.

My point is there are powerful abilities in the game.  And getting rid of energy efficient things won't directly address the power of an ability.  It just side steps it.  Making the power fair is the first point and the one that usually gets done.  Then if it's still too effective for DE's ideas then they tweak it's energy usage.  They might have a lot of tweaking to do this way.  but it's far more effective and in the end probably better balanced then just taking away energy or severely limiting it.

I don't play with trinity or a person who mains them.  So I can't say.  But she's a support frame.  So she's going to be effective at giving us are more precious resource.  that might seem like a balance problem.  But You're giving up a whole frame in order to do so.  And believe it or not most people don't enjoy playing support.  in any game.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

10 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

Yes, she can heal the team and provide damage reduction, which is fantastic. But at the end of the day, we all know energy is the real money maker in this game. You can have all the health and damage reduction you want, but at some point in the game, it really does become less about your weapons and damage output and more about the overall utility of your frames and abilities. Providing energy is a role we need in this game, because God knows your meager health in this game just becomes a formality between you and the enemy after awhile, so healing becomes a bit useless rather fast. 

In fact, more often that not on Sorties and such content, I find my team getting killed so fast I literally can't get off a Blessing before they die. Which is why I say while healing is great in this game, overall utility of abilities will really be the only thing that save you in higher tier content.

Oh, and of course weapons like the Tonkor, but that's an entirely different beast all together.

i see your points, i really do. it's an egg/chicken thing tho, i believe. i think we got that ridiculously binary endgame because we are too powerful. just like nullifiers everyone seems to hate ( i don't XP)... there wouldn't be any "need" for such an enemy if it wasn't for our broken energy economy.

i don't like the whole one-shot-or-cc-whole-room/BE-one shot business. encounters should be more meaningful and hp more important and by that trin/supporters in general, too.

[(PSN)I_AM_FIRED_UP]

This probaly been said before but if you don't like it than don't use it

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

35 minutes ago, DuskLegendary said:

Why can't people just let us have our fun? Why does the game need to be so hard to the point that literally everything feels like a job?

pressing one button for half an hour feels more like a job to me. an extremely boring job, even:

different strokes i guess...

[(PSN)I_AM_FIRED_UP]

1 minute ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

pressing one button for half an hour feels more like a job to me. an extremely boring job, even:

different strokes i guess...

More difficulty doesn't mean more fun for every person. Eh