Does DE really pay attention to their feedback?

[VoidNomade]

15 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

"don't actully play the game at all" is an unfounded argument that carries no weight. DE has a QA team consisting of players and employees.

Enemy and weapon balancing are coming after the Warframe balancing, likely making percentage based power ideas a thought of the past. A difference in design preference or a change to the meta does not prove DE doesn't play the game at all, and really should have no merit in any discussion. 

Instead, what should be occurring is the outlining of feedback, with the 'why', should a user feel strongly about the idea. The "I don't like this and so DE doesn't know what they are doing" does not work toward improvement.

That is fine and dandy.

But in the case of Scott you can see that it´s better for the development of the game if the developers do a "boss job" from time to time.

[SilvaDreams]

10 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

I have a problem with such statements.

Who does know more about gaming than some people that are playing games for over 20 years?

The devs who play games and have been making them for the past 16 years...?

[Hesyol]

I think that Trinity's 75% is a temporary solution, until they can figure something better. At least I hope so... I also hope they fix their reoworks for Mag, Valkyr and Volt in next patches too. Atm I'm giving this game time to fix all that, because I want to believe in better and don't want to quit Warframe for now

[Henji]

On ‎01‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 9:31 PM, Voraxxx said:

Many would've loved to have Excalibur get a buff at close range since his ranged attacks got hammered.

 

Speak for yourself.

if they've done that it would defeat the whole purpose of their range nerf.

You can get benefits from any sword you are using plus the combo multiplier if u get close range wich is personally more then enough.

[DuskLegendary]

I do believe that they probably keep a very close eye on all of our feedback. But I also believe that this community is split most of the time between very big issues, and they simply can't please everyone. If something gets nerfed, you're going to have a lot of angry people, and rightfully so. If something gets a buff, likewise, you're going to have a lot of angry players because some players believe that some things are already powerful enough as is and only contributes to further breaking the game.

So, like I said. In the end, DE can't please everyone, I guess they just do what they ultimately think is best for the game. And once again, I'm almost 100% sure they do read our feedback, though they don't cater to it.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

Yes.DE pays attention to everything.If the changes you offered are affecting the game positively,they will look into it.

[VoidNomade]

1 hour ago, SilvaDreams said:

The devs who play games and have been making them for the past 16 years...?

You don´t get what i want to say.. Both have a grand knowledge. The statement i meant though totally neglect one side. And that´s stupid.

[Elenortirie]

37 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

You don´t get what i want to say.. Both have a grand knowledge. The statement i meant though totally neglect one side. And that´s stupid.

I can see issue with your approach here - "community" here is not made up from folks who has been playing games "for over 20 years"

 

actually I'd argue if majority of this mess called wf community even lives that long, not mentioning playing games :P

the people who you have listed [gamers for over 20 years] are really miniscule minority of the game "community" and hence while looking in the big picture the statement " Listening to the community is fine and all, but the community aren't game designers.  " is perfectly logical - because statistically over 80% of said community most probably have no idea about even half of factors being considered when deciding on what changes are needed to be made, and how they need to be made - and guess who is the most visible group on the forums? :P

[Mcl_Blue]

2 hours ago, VoidNomade said:

I have a problem with such statements.

Who does know more about gaming than some people that are playing games for over 20 years?

Game designers do. Playing games for a long time does not make you into a game designer. There are professional game designers who have played games for less than that, and there are people who have gamed for as long as I have lived, who don't know the first thing about game design.

By your logic, if I eat a whole bunch of food, I'm basically a gourmet chef. But that's now how it works. Fact of the matter is, it's a much safer assumption to make, that the great majority of players don't know the first thing about game design, than it is to assume the opposite. And I've seen my fair share of stupid suggestions in this forum to know that a lot of people here don't understand how game design works.

[VoidNomade]

19 minutes ago, Elenortirie said:

I can see issue with your approach here - "community" here is not made up from folks who has been playing games "for over 20 years"

 

actually I'd argue if majority of this mess called wf community even lives that long, not mentioning playing games :P

the people who you have listed [gamers for over 20 years] are really miniscule minority of the game "community" and hence while looking in the big picture the statement " Listening to the community is fine and all, but the community aren't game designers.  " is perfectly logical - because statistically over 80% of said community most probably have no idea about even half of factors being considered when deciding on what changes are needed to be made, and how they need to be made - and guess who is the most visible group on the forums? :P

It´s a generalisation on both sides. Not all gamers know about game design and not all game designers can game. Or do you believe all game designers hit the highscores in their games? i really doubt it. Could it be that we have a 80% 20% ratio even here. I guess throwing numbers is okay.. Thing is the game designers in WF are inherently bound to feedback, opinions and LISTENING TO COMMUNITY because it´s a consecutive product that rise and fall is intertwined with the consumer base and it´s interest's.

 

16 minutes ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

Game designers do. Playing games for a long time does not make you into a game designer. There are professional game designers who have played games for less than that, and there are people who have gamed for as long as I have lived, who don't know the first thing about game design.

That doesn´t negate the vice-versa situation.

 

18 minutes ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

By your logic, if I eat a whole bunch of food, I'm basically a gourmet chef. But that's now how it works.

By my logic the consumer of the food is now a food critic and knows more about how food should taste than the chef with a reptile tongue :)

Both should met.

 

Also not all community ideas are bad.

[Elenortirie]

1 minute ago, VoidNomade said:

It´s a generalisation on both sides. Not all gamers know about game design and not all game designers can game. Or do you believe all game designers hit the highscores in their games? i really doubt it. Could it be that we have a 80% 20% ratio even here. I guess throwing numbers is okay.. Thing is the game designers in WF are inherently bound to feedback, opinions and LISTENING TO COMMUNITY because it´s a consecutive product that rise and fall is intertwined with the consumer base and it´s interest's.[1]

 

By my logic the consumer of the food is now a food critic and knows more about how food should taste than the chef with a reptile tongue :)

Both should met. [2]

 

Also not all community ideas are bad. [3]

[1] Listening - yes - but not blindly following everything suggested on the forums and that what he meant with quote you opposed to :P

and yes I also doubt and game developper actually beating high scores in his own game - but then he knows his game much better than even the leader of the leaderboards, also game designing is much deeper thing than just plaing the games and quite alot of people who have played ALOT would not be capable to design the game that they would in the long run enjoy

[on a note I've seen quite a few games when the devs were implementing changes demanded by really big group of community, only for tha group of community to realise that catering to their demand have ruined the game - single popular demand mind you :P]

[2] but then you do not expect the food critic to cook well right? :P food critic will provide feedback on what changes in taste would be welcome/needed/neccessary but its up to chief how to achieve these changes in taste without ruining the taste itself - the most of forum sugegstions though are attempts to tell the chief what ingrendients he should change instead.

[3] but most are and thats quite a point :P - listening to community - yes, but remembering that most of them does nto really knows anything about game designing and trying to filter out the bad ones to pay attention only to the ones that are actually good :P

[VoidNomade]

[1] The high score leader if you ask him about the game i´m pretty sure he will tell the game designer one, two things that even he doesn´t know.

[2] You´re mixing the restaurant consumer with the critic :)

[3] As i have said not all the community is bad because they aren´t game desginers..

 

[Mcl_Blue]

28 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

That doesn´t negate the vice-versa situation.

The vice-versa situation is too minuscule to need to be negated.

28 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

Also not all community ideas are bad.

On 01/06/2016 at 10:02 PM, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

Not everything they say will be good for the game,

51 minutes ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

the great majority of players don't know the first thing about game design

I'm thinking you need to get your eyesight checked.

[VoidNomade]

2 minutes ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

I'm thinking you need to get your eyesight checked.

I believe my eyes and everything else is fine thanks. :D

I think we met a dead end here.

 

[Mcl_Blue]

2 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

I believe my eyes and everything else is fine thanks. :D

I think we met a dead end here.

Yes, we will meet a dead end, if you ignore what I say and instead pretend I said what's useful for your argument.

I never said that "everything the community says is bad", but you seem intent on pretending that I did. And if the problem's not on your eyesight, I call a problem on something else.

[Waspyeh]

On 6/1/2016 at 8:31 PM, Voraxxx said:

Don't get me wrong. The dev team is constantly keeping the game alive with great updates.. well, mostly.

But are they really listening to their community? I mean, we just got an update recently.. 

Everyone is asking for Mag tweaks, have a % scaling. Have blessing be the same as before but keep the range nerf, or even have the enemies such as Bombards and Nullifiers stop being so god damm stupid..

And what do we get? We can see the bubble from inside.. wow, such a great change. Trinity gets her blessing to be capped at 75%.. again, are they listening to the community? and finally, we get enemy tweaks.. but instead of what we've always been asking for since they got added to the void, we get tweaks for the plasma granade and the crazy catwoman..

Just.. it seems like you guys barely take any ideas from your community, and rather just read the tittles from the forums to get a sight of what people want and then relase something completly unwated or unexpected..

Lastly, stop nerfing sh!t.. that's not the way to deal with problems. Or if you do, atleast make up for it with something else. Many would've loved to have Excalibur get a buff at close range since his ranged attacks got hammered.

I'm loving the new Mag, but please.. rather than just adding something so useless, make your community happy with her by giving them what they want so badly, a bit of scaling.

Also, thanks for the Lanka nerf. I've been grinding it up for the last 3 days just to be 1 hour away from having it finished and read how they removed it in the patch notes. Was it so bad? 

Im responding to the title. Yes

[LZWilde]

1 hour ago, Elenortirie said:

I can see issue with your approach here - "community" here is not made up from folks who has been playing games "for over 20 years"

 

actually I'd argue if majority of this mess called wf community even lives that long, not mentioning playing games :P

the people who you have listed [gamers for over 20 years] are really miniscule minority of the game "community" and hence while looking in the big picture the statement " Listening to the community is fine and all, but the community aren't game designers.  " is perfectly logical - because statistically over 80% of said community most probably have no idea about even half of factors being considered when deciding on what changes are needed to be made, and how they need to be made - and guess who is the most visible group on the forums? :P

You are trying to project idea that game developers are infallible and always right, while at the same time claiming that players are wrong and have no understanding about games. Guess what, DE did plenty of wrong decisions (do you remember Vivergate?), made more than enough of conflicting statements (" void fatigue and lessening grind" and then we have statements  about Vauban prime) and more than enough of empty promises (sortie tokens HELLO!). 

Make game unpleasant to play and people will leave. Almost of my clan have left, i don't blame them. I'm still playing, still hoping that DE will deliver, but for how long?

[VoidNomade]

32 minutes ago, Mcl_BlueMadness said:

Yes, we will meet a dead end, if you ignore what I say and instead pretend I said what's useful for your argument.

I never said that "everything the community says is bad", but you seem intent on pretending that I did. And if the problem's not on your eyesight, I call a problem on something else.

I don´t understand your drama.

I said i´m against the statement because it´s a generalisation. You guys seem to attack me because i´m against generalisation. I don´t know where your problem is.

edit: Or is it because my example was not semantic enough? o.o

Edited June 3, 2016 by VoidNomade

[Mcl_Blue]

2 minutes ago, VoidNomade said:

I don´t understand your drama.

I said i´m against the statement because it´s a generalisation. You guys seem to attack me because i´m against generalisation. I don´t know where your problem is.

...........................

My... "problem"... is exactly what I just said. What you just quoted. Do read it, please.

[Elenortirie]

2 hours ago, LZWilde said:

You are trying to project idea that game developers are infallible and always right, while at the same time claiming that players are wrong and have no understanding about games. Guess what, DE did plenty of wrong decisions (do you remember Vivergate?), made more than enough of conflicting statements (" void fatigue and lessening grind" and then we have statements  about Vauban prime) and more than enough of empty promises (sortie tokens HELLO!). 

Make game unpleasant to play and people will leave. Almost of my clan have left, i don't blame them. I'm still playing, still hoping that DE will deliver, but for how long?

No, I am not projecting the idea of game developpers being infallible and always right nor players having no understanding abot the game as a whole,

What I'm trying to emphasise is that developpers have been in this job for years and have much more experience in game designing than an average warframe player out there - and as it may sound offensive for some, truth is that by statistics the "average" warframe player have barely any idea of what he is doing in game - not mentioning having even a slightest idea on how game developping process looks like - and sadly it does not limit to the warframe playerbase - thats about how average player in any games looks like unfortunately [and many developpers caters to that trying to make the games easy without any complexity and completely idiotproof]

So if DE were to implement everything that some average folks on forums over here are talking about the game would die faster tan devs would be finished with implementing stuff

as for Vivergate - yes it was mistake, but with any insight of how it looks from the other side I can totally understand how that mistake was made - there was a loud exploit and in first take on it devs started with dealing with what seemed to be most probable reason of why it works at the time - which have proven to not be the correct reason, which they acknowledged and fixed while rolling back unneeded nerfs - by the way I myself know few dev studios who in such case would either never acknowledge that their first estimate was wrong, neither rolling back the nerfs would even be considered by them :P

I don't see much conflict about speaks on "void fatique and lessening the grind" being followed by reveal of next prime access - especially considering circumstances, and tbh I don't recall hearing anything ever about sortie tokens not to mention any factuall promise for it being a thing....

which does nto mean that they never mentioned it - but knowing DE they could be mentioning it with very carefull wording to not make a promise out of it.

and then for the moment being DE is imo doing quite a good job proving they are overally competent team with clear vision for their game - sure game still have some issues to be adressed and considering they seem to work on most of them I only await to see how they will approach it :)

[marelooke]

6 hours ago, Hesyol said:

I think that Trinity's 75% is a temporary solution, until they can figure something better. At least I hope so... I also hope they fix their reoworks for Mag, Valkyr and Volt in next patches too. Atm I'm giving this game time to fix all that, because I want to believe in better and don't want to quit Warframe for now

As they say in our business (I'm a software developer :P): "Nothing is as permanent as a temporary solution" ( = it's tempting to leave band-aids in as there are other problems to worry about and this one is, well, "handled"). That said, DE often leaves things broken (or disabled, Dark Sectors say "Hi!") while searching for the best solution for a looooong time. As a developer I can only respect this, as a consumer this sucks.

In the end there's enough options in the game that these kinds of changes are kinda livable until DE fixes them, whenever that is. I played Trinity a lot before the first major nerf, she's been collecting mostly dust for quite a while now, the self damage thing was stupid, this new change doesn't feel like much of an improvement so I'll just keep waiting. I pretty much mained Saryn since I first got her and I still play Saryn a lot. But in the end there's lots of tools in our toolbox, when one is broken, just pick another one, eg. since the Valkyr nerf I just use Inaros for my OP unkillableness and frankly, it's a lot more fun too!

Edited June 3, 2016 by marelooke

[Hesyol]

18 minutes ago, marelooke said:

As they say in our business (I'm a software developer :P): "Nothing is as permanent as a temporary solution" ( = it's tempting to leave band-aids in as there are other problems to worry about and this one is, well, "handled"). That said, DE often leaves things broken (or disabled, Dark Sectors say "Hi!") while searching for the best solution for a looooong time. As a developer I can only respect this, as a consumer this sucks.

Well then 75% isn't the worst that could happen...

[Lost_Cartographer]

Doesn't matter how long a developer has been a game developer - they (largely, the leaders with the final say) can and will continue to make horrible decisions if they're prone to them and never learn or lack foresight.  It's why Blizzard has a tendency to stand head and shoulders above everyone else - they know WTF they're doing, and if they ever make a bad decision, they learn the whys and fix it with a more educated decision.  Valve WAS of the same caliber as Blizzard, except they don't really develop games anymore because there's more money in sitting atop their game-hub and raking in fractions of each sale from across thousands of games.  I can't say if we actualy get a Half-Life 3 that it will live up to the polish and design of its predecessors.

Nerfing blessing wasn't a horrible decision, nor is axing most if every form of endless scaling the player has access to.  Players kind of need to feel vulnerable at all times, and endless modes by their nature are meant to beat the player eventually.  Ability damage or power endlessly scaling along side the enemy defeats that intention.  People can complain about armor scaling or enemy damage spikes all they want, in the end, these factors are acceptable because they'll inevitably beat the player.  "Low-to-mid-tier" content is actually the normal stuff we're meant to feel over powered towards, not stuff at level 100+.  Coincidentally, armor and damage isn't really a problem in "low-to-mid-tier" content.

Armor is still a boring mechanic though.

[Mcl_Blue]

1 hour ago, WASPGOD said:

[(PSN)Akuma_Asura_]

Feedback towards passive wasn't listened too