Multishot: How It Should be Nerfed

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

Plain and simple: Make each weapon have its own Multishot Chance. In the same fashion they have Critical Chance and Status Chance. 

For example: 

Daikyu

Crit Chance: 15%

Status Chance: 45%

Multishot Chance: 10% [Add in Split Chamber for a higher chance (don't know how much that is)]

The idea is that making Multishot cost additional ammo is a bad idea, ammo consumption on some weapons would skyrocket. Generating the need for Ammo Mutation. You would be taking away a mandatory mod to put another mandatory mod with that idea. However, making each weapon have X% Multishot Chance will instead give players more options in regards to modding. As not all weapons would be Multishot viable while some definitely will.

Edited June 4, 2016 by (PS4)LoisGordils

[(PSN)VanityToni]

This does not really solve anything. Suppose they give a weapon like the Daikyu a 10% multishot so you wouldn't use the mod on that weapon. Then they go and give the weapon like the Soma a 30% and you would. So it is still a mandatory mod, just not for whatever weapons they give low chance to. In that case, it widens the gap between weapon tiers. Suppose the Daikyu had a 10% chance to multishot and the Paris a 40%, more reasons to not use the Daikyu as your puncture bow. 

 

It may be an unpopular idea, especially for those people who are just power creeps, but I do like the idea they proposed for the multishot nerf. It is not as black and white as you paint it. You say that double the ammo inefficiency in essences makes the mutation mods mandatory but that's the idea. You sacrifice a DPS mod for a quality of life mod. It forces younto decide do I want more burst damage (using multishot) or do I want more continuous damage (not using it). It is a DPS nerf as a whole but it does reduce the mandatory mods and gives you more options. With this multishot nerf, I hope, comes the removal of Serration (and similar mods) as well as better enemy scaling. 

[Lost_Cartographer]

10 hours ago, (PS4)VanityToni said:

It may be an unpopular idea, especially for those people who are just power creeps, but I do like the idea they proposed for the multishot nerf. It is not as black and white as you paint it. You say that double the ammo inefficiency in essences makes the mutation mods mandatory but that's the idea. You sacrifice a DPS mod for a quality of life mod. It forces younto decide do I want more burst damage (using multishot) or do I want more continuous damage (not using it). It is a DPS nerf as a whole but it does reduce the mandatory mods and gives you more options. With this multishot nerf, I hope, comes the removal of Serration (and similar mods) as well as better enemy scaling. 

It's an unpopular idea because it accomplishes what is already done with mods like speed trigger - it's just a fire rate mod if it's "two bullets out = two bullets spent."  If you have a weapon a 100 round magazine that fires 10 rounds a second, what's the difference between having that weapon empty at one round per shot at 20 rounds per second, versus 2 rounds per shot at 10 shots per second?

Answer = 0.  They both empty their magazines in 5 seconds.

The current suggested change for multi-shot is just another idea in a long list of short sighted, bad ideas.  There are people that genuinely dislike multi-shot is being messed with at all, but a lot recognize that multi-shot isn't really doing anything for the game as it is now.

My suggestion for the multi-shot changes are to either nerf to percentile chance to a very low number, like 30% tops, but keep the extra bullet free, so that for 15 mod points and a slot players can ask themselves if a low chance for double damage is really worth it in place of something else.

Alternatively, every shot while a multi-shot mod is installed will eat that extra bullet, but there's a chance the extra shot won't eat that extra bullet.  Like max rank split-chamber might increase the chance the extra bullet won't cost anything to 40% just as an example.  Players can guarantee they'll increase their raw damage output this way, and there's a chance some shots won't cost them anything.  There's still some risk-vs-reward going on and the mod avoids being strictly a fire rate mod.

[Vance.Stubbs]

Multishot should just go. After enemy scalling rework, of course.

[(PSN)Nyxn607]

I would like to see all dmg mods go away for primaries/secondaries and open up the ability to mod for more status procs/reload speed/less recoil etc...  It would open up to a broader variety of builds rather than requiring 3-4 mods to be any good in late game content.

[DoomFruit]

"How it should be nerfed" - not at all.

[shyguyk]

The only was i see it existing without being mandatory is turn your one bullet into two or 3, split the base damage between them, and use the mod as either an accuracy band-aid, a crit consistency mod, or a status multiplier (I assume crit chance and status chance will remain constant).

If it's not that^ then it will probably be a pseudo fire rate mod

[Soketsu]

I still do not see why they should nerf multishot, or nerf anything... i mean we are in pve game, beside it's either that or monstruous crit chance & damage,

if anyone can explain to me the point

[Vaskadar]

The whole point of nerfing multishot and also subsequently altering enemy health, and tying weapons damage to level, is to promote build diversity and reduce the extremities between low level play and high level play to create a more satisfying gameplay experience that doesn't make actually playing the game a trivial concept -- partly why I've basically abandoned the game, since the concept of 'challenge' in this game boils down to equipment loadouts, hard counters, and not skill.

The game has basically devolved into the core loop of rush through the enemy while occasionally activating your ultimate and spamming a bunch of AOE attacks to get to the end reward. That's not playing, that's just going straight for the cheese instead of partaking in that experience.

DE, whether they know it or not, has cultivated this non-gameplay because of power creep and lack of a firm foundation of balance and progression due to rapid expansion of content without really going back and tuning any of it to be in line with an iterative process that fosters an engaging experience, rather than a passive press-4-2-win rush.

It boils down to people that play the game just to get the reward instead of actually playing the game -- a skinner's box dilemma. This is why PvE needs to be balanced frequently, rather than infrequently. Yes, I've poured approx. 1800 hrs of actual game time into this game, and I realized that you have to go to extremes to even experience any sort of challenge, which generally is either you cheese the enemy with your own BS or they roflstomp your face in with BS. It's become a very unskilled, passive game to play (In a majority of content) because of their focus on equipment gates instead of combat mechanics.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Vaskadar

[Soketsu]

3 hours ago, Vaskadar said:

The whole point of nerfing multishot and also subsequently altering enemy health, and tying weapons damage to level, is to promote build diversity and reduce the extremities between low level play and high level play to create a more satisfying gameplay experience that doesn't make actually playing the game a trivial concept -- partly why I've basically abandoned the game, since the concept of 'challenge' in this game boils down to equipment loadouts, hard counters, and not skill.

The game has basically devolved into the core loop of rush through the enemy while occasionally activating your ultimate and spamming a bunch of AOE attacks to get to the end reward. That's not playing, that's just going straight for the cheese instead of partaking in that experience.

DE, whether they know it or not, has cultivated this non-gameplay because of power creep and lack of a firm foundation of balance and progression due to rapid expansion of content without really going back and tuning any of it to be in line with an iterative process that fosters an engaging experience, rather than a passive press-4-2-win rush.

It boils down to people that play the game just to get the reward instead of actually playing the game -- a skinner's box dilemma. This is why PvE needs to be balanced frequently, rather than infrequently. Yes, I've poured approx. 1800 hrs of actual game time into this game, and I realized that you have to go to extremes to even experience any sort of challenge, which generally is either you cheese the enemy with your own BS or they roflstomp your face in with BS. It's become a very unskilled, passive game to play (In a majority of content) because of their focus on equipment gates instead of combat mechanics.

I do not think it will solve every problem, even if we nerf multishot, veteran players still got overpowered frame who can destroy armies  in huge area in no time, add to their parkour skill, it may change nothing for the new players beside we can bring them to long missions when we need a good dps

I think either we gonna to have more critical / statut builds, and if they do as the said.... oh god the only thing we have to do change is to take some ammu conversion or ammu max... annoying to me and many others

[shyguyk]

33 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

I do not think it will solve every problem, even if we nerf multishot, veteran players still got overpowered frame who can destroy armies  in huge area in no time, add to their parkour skill, it may change nothing for the new players beside we can bring them to long missions when we need a good dps

I think either we gonna to have more critical / statut builds, and if they do as the said.... oh god the only thing we have to do change is to take some ammu conversion or ammu max... annoying to me and many others

You should've seen the crying when S gammacore people had to slot an ammo mutation instead of fire rate. Jesus...

Vets will have to think about ammo more consciously, and if you haven't seen the past few changes, there might not be any overpowered frames anymore

[-N7-Leonhart]

5 hours ago, Soketsu said:

I still do not see why they should nerf multishot, or nerf anything... i mean we are in pve game, beside it's either that or monstruous crit chance & damage,

if anyone can explain to me the point

It's meant as a positive change, not a nerf. Too many mandatory mods, up to 5 on crit weapons. In reality, there should be 0 mandatory mods on any build, but that's fantasy at the moment.

They will make Multishot mods 'less desirable' as in weaker, but not useless. Then you may or may not want to slot it, depending on the situation.

I do think that they won't make it the same as fire rate, that would be very pointless.

Of course, the enemy scaling will most likely be balanced around those changes too. So, a positive change, more modding possibilities.

Edited June 5, 2016 by -BM-Leonhart

[Soketsu]

4 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

You should've seen the crying when S gammacore people had to slot an ammo mutation instead of fire rate. Jesus...

Vets will have to think about ammo more consciously, and if you haven't seen the past few changes, there might not be any overpowered frames anymore

i didn't see it but to my eyes, was little too much,

a syndical weapon with less base dame than the real weapon, they should let him to 40-50 :/

it's still my favorite secondary weapon but this nerf was enough in order to be annoying instead of bringing new to the gameplay, like diversity--'

[Soketsu]

1 minute ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

It's meant as a positive change, not a nerf. Too many mandatory mods, up to 5 on crit weapons. In reality, there should be 0 mandatory mods on any build, but that's fantasy at the moment. They will make Multishot mods 'less desirable' as in weaker, but not useless. Then you many or may not want to slot it, depending on the situation. I do think that they won't make it the same as fire rate, that would be very useless. Of course, the enemy scaling will most likely be balanced around those changes too. So, a positive change, more modding possibilities.

if it to spend more ammo, what the point, beside annoying everyone,

i mean they are already increasing the fire rate for that, so that change might put multishot and increasing the fire rate to the same level or below since with fire rate you can "predict" the output of your shots & the multishot will depend of the chance of proc (if you are below 100% unless you use a shotgun) like a critical,

it will be harder to manage ammo with multishot

and if there should be 0 mandatory mod, what will should do about heavy caliber, also a must have on many weapon (not all)

[YasaiTsume]

The multishot nerf which DE hinted awhile ago simply doubles ammo inefficiency, something players can counter with proper ammo management. 

It's only a hard nerf for players who spray and pray. 

 

I do hear suggestions now and then that Multishot's second or even third shots should do like say, 20% lesser damage than the base.

I think that is a fair nerf if people have issues with eating ammo. 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

9 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

"How it should be nerfed" - not at all.

this ^

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 hours ago, Soketsu said:

if it to spend more ammo, what the point, beside annoying everyone,

i mean they are already increasing the fire rate for that, so that change might put multishot and increasing the fire rate to the same level or below since with fire rate you can "predict" the output of your shots & the multishot will depend of the chance of proc (if you are below 100% unless you use a shotgun) like a critical,

it will be harder to manage ammo with multishot

and if there should be 0 mandatory mod, what will should do about heavy caliber, also a must have on many weapon (not all)

Serration, Point Blank and all that will get a separate treatment of "non-mandatorification", that is what they promised.

Regarding the multishot, I imagine it may be something like +60% multishot + 30% ammo consumption, or something like that. It's not just fire rate, after all.

[(PSN)bddacres]

Why do some people feel as if Nerfing is the only solution to a pve game? With all these Nerfs I just see it being less enjoyable for with endgame... For example De nerfs Trinity and mirage (two raid essentials) but saying they won't be adding any raids bc players aren't actively playing them....  Why not focus on making both parties happy....  Maybe nodes should be Mr locked and content should be added for both parties...  But nerfing content bc someone in a public match is stealing your killing is not the answer

[Vaskadar]

13 hours ago, (PS4)bddacres said:

Why do some people feel as if Nerfing is the only solution to a pve game? With all these Nerfs I just see it being less enjoyable for with endgame... For example De nerfs Trinity and mirage (two raid essentials) but saying they won't be adding any raids bc players aren't actively playing them....  Why not focus on making both parties happy....  Maybe nodes should be Mr locked and content should be added for both parties...  But nerfing content bc someone in a public match is stealing your killing is not the answer

As I've outlined in my post above -- it's one extreme or the other. Too easy, or just flat-out cheesefest dependent on equipment gates.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Vaskadar

[SergeiTheBeast]

Unpopular opinion, Multi-shot doesn't need nerf'd. Fix the enemy scaling BEFORE you nerf us into the ground.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

OP isn't saying it should be nerfed, he's only saying since DE is deciding to nerf it, this is how it should be done.

I think it's an excellent idea. Reducing the multishot capabilities on current meta weapons while increasing it on weapons that have a poor crit and/or status chance would bring the meta dps down while raising unpopular weapons dps.

Nice idea.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

OP isn't saying it should be nerfed, he's only saying since DE is deciding to nerf it, this is how it should be done.

I think it's an excellent idea. Reducing the multishot capabilities on current meta weapons while increasing it on weapons that have a poor crit and/or status chance would bring the meta dps down while raising unpopular weapons dps.

Nice idea.

Thank you! You get my point! I would love to see all weapons have something that makes me consider using them

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Yeah well I won't give up on this idea. I do believe something like this would be perfect to bring a lot of unused weapons to the light.

[Shockwave-]

On 6/4/2016 at 8:21 PM, -BM-Leonhart said:

It's meant as a positive change, not a nerf. Too many mandatory mods, up to 5 on crit weapons. In reality, there should be 0 mandatory mods on any build, but that's fantasy at the moment.

They will make Multishot mods 'less desirable' as in weaker, but not useless. Then you may or may not want to slot it, depending on the situation.

I do think that they won't make it the same as fire rate, that would be very pointless.

Of course, the enemy scaling will most likely be balanced around those changes too. So, a positive change, more modding possibilities.

nonsense. Pure nonsense. Serration is a perfect mod to have in a game like this. It doesn't break the game, it doesn't mean less diversity in builds. it is, actually, your progression mod. Serration takes the place of "character level" in most other games, where higher level characters are better/do more dmg with their weapons because of some firearms skill progression they get as they level up.

WF has no levels. Instead it has serration. Which is that skill (it is not stuck to one weapon and moves between weapons just like a character based skill). As you rank up your serration you get better. This is how the starmap can be balanced and challenging. Low level players have lvl 30 weapons quite quickly. without serration (and the forma needed to flesh out their builds with a maxed rank serration) their damage is low. As they progress their damage with guns gets higher. DE should leave serration alone.

If they want more diversity then accept that serration is a must mod, add a mod slot to all weapons and balance from there. Or balance based on weapons have 7 mod slots knowing serration is going to be #8. Either way serration doesn't really do much of anything as long as it's balanced around, it's not a problem at all. 

Ditto other "mandatory mods". I'd actually like to see WAY less fusion cores in the game and use that as the "character level" - the inability to max out every mod so easily. the mods would become the skill trees of other games (i collected X fusion cores after a few days, do I add a pip to serration, or split chamber or an elemental mod?). It should take a few MONTHS of gameplay to max out all the mods (otherwise known as getting to max level), since MR doesn't mean anything.

Many other games have some base consensus skills that every class needs to rank up to be good and then some skills they can pick and choose more esoterically. Mandatory mods fit that model perfectly.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Shockwave-

[-N7-Leonhart]

28 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

nonsense. Pure nonsense. Serration is a perfect mod to have in a game like this. It doesn't break the game, it doesn't mean less diversity in builds. it is, actually, your progression mod. Serration takes the place of "character level" in most other games, where higher level characters are better/do more dmg with their weapons because of some firearms skill progression they get as they level up.

WF has no levels. Instead it has serration. Which is that skill (it is not stuck to one weapon and moves between weapons just like a character based skill). As you rank up your serration you get better. This is how the starmap can be balanced and challenging. Low level players have lvl 30 weapons quite quickly. without serration (and the forma needed to flesh out their builds with a maxed rank serration) their damage is low. As they progress their damage with guns gets higher. DE should leave serration alone.

If they want more diversity then accept that serration is a must mod, add a mod slot to all weapons and balance from there. Or balance based on weapons have 7 mod slots knowing serration is going to be #8. Either way serration doesn't really do much of anything as long as it's balanced around, it's not a problem at all. 

Ditto other "mandatory mods". I'd actually like to see WAY less fusion cores in the game and use that as the "character level" - the inability to max out every mod so easily. the mods would become the skill trees of other games (i collected X fusion cores after a few days, do I add a pip to serration, or split chamber or an elemental mod?). It should take a few MONTHS of gameplay to max out all the mods (otherwise known as getting to max level), since MR doesn't mean anything.

Many other games have some base consensus skills that every class needs to rank up to be good and then some skills they can pick and choose more esoterically. Mandatory mods fit that model perfectly.

There was a skill tree but it was quickly ditched.

I am repeating myself but still: everyone has Serration, not much progression related to that. If it was built-in, I could use some actual modding for the weapon, like reload, magazine, punch, all that stuff, like actual attachments. Of course, it's the same for multishot, heavy cal and crit mods.

Edited June 11, 2016 by -BM-Leonhart