Overpowered players

[Alma_Elma]

3 minutes ago, Cydro_ said:

You seem to be forgetting that some of these ideas are reality. The multishot 'fix' (multishot causing more ammo to be consumed each shot) is coming. Removal of mods like serration is coming. Of course this isn't as simple as that; weapon scaling is being reworked and changed. I can't be sure, but I'd be surprised if enemy reworks didn't also come soon.

Assuming DE isn't going to go full pants-on-head, they'd balance enemy scaling first BEFORE nerfing our weapons to the ground (or do it at the same time), and I don't have a problem if the enemies are adjusted to a reasonable difficulty when our weapons are balanced out. Atleast the challenge is now fair.

But if we're gonna do it at the game's current state, I'd love for him to see why that's a bad idea right now.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[Enno69]

6 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

I'd like you to complete 3 sorties with your following criteria. If you can't, do a T4 survival run for 60 minutes (40 if you're gonna do it solo).

1. No damage boost mods on your weapons. Physical or critical. Multishot can be included, but you can't mount ammunition mods to simulate your ideal "double ammunition" idea. Because we can't simulate your elemental idea; you're allowed to use LV2 elemental mods or dual stat elemental mods as a substitute.

2. No efficiency mods or Trinities in your group. Get other frames do to your healing or use life strike. And they must be meeting the same criteria as above.

3.Video you and your squad trying to complete the challenge I've laid out.

4. If you manage to win, I'll take your ideas seriously. Otherwise, have fun getting wrecked by the Eximi by the 20 minute mark/second sortie because of this game's unholy scaling system and see why a certain level of cheese is needed in this game to progress.

Did you read one of his/her last sentence ? " DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. " It's not about "nerf us but keep the rest as it is". This kind of rework wuld be a first step towards a global rebalance where we would not need to have gear that can level buildings because that broken enemy scaling would be fixed. Kinda DE's actual idea, I think. Now, I do not agree fully with the OP  ; I believe the powercreep is more of a circle : stronger enemies because more challenge, but since stronger = one-shot bullet sponges in this game, that leads to stronger weapons and mass CC, so cheese, so even tougher enemies so OP players can still have a challenge, but then gear that isn't top-tier gradually becomes useless at "endgame" and the cheese only gets stronger, etc.

[AdunSaveMe]

All of this relies on the incorrect assumption that players and mods are the only issue, and the only thing that can change.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Markerlight said:

How about changing all abilities to have a cooldown and leave energy to be used only for channeling and Quick Thinking?

Mods like Streamline could reduce cooldowns by up to 30%. Bam, done.

Then spam will be no longer be an issue. 

warframe used to have cool downs, I don't want these back please no

[Enno69]

1 minute ago, AdunSaveMe said:

All of this relies on the incorrect assumption that players and mods are the only issue, and the only thing that can change.

It does not. OP stated he/she was aware of the broken scaling and flawed mission design, but this stands in correlation with our own easily abused power.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

holy *cupcake* the toxicity in this thread is phenomenal. The fact that the second anyone mentions a nerf results in everyone lashing out at the poster with insults instead of relevant arguments to the topic should say a lot about those people.

Hell, I even enjoy the power fantasy quite a bit, I like feeling powerful, hence why I like Warframe. So why am I agreeing with OP? Because feeling powerful without people trying their damnedest to stop you doesn't make you feel powerful (at least in my case), it makes you feel like the enemy isn't even trying to fight back, because what point is there? You're just going to annihilate them in 0.001 of a second (hyperbole), so why bother fighting back? It's not like we're asking for Dark Souls (personally, I would probably stop playing Warframe if that was the case), we're just simply asking for the enemy to have a chance to fight back before we incinerate/electrocute/perforate/explode/dimensionally crush/what-have-you our enemies.

For anyone who likes the power fantasy and hasn't played it already, I seriously recommend playing either Borderlands 2 or Pre-Sequel, because those games do an awesome job at making you feel powerful while still providing a challenge, and, again in my experience, conquering that challenge makes you feel even more powerful than just mindlessly one shotting everything. And besides, some of the characters in those games are awesome, and the humour doesn't hurt anything.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Ninjaboy00
changed some wording for clarity

[--Q--uaint]

14 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

What im saying is that if the enemy has a better AI which notes the abilities of the tenno that are being used can attempt to dodge, or move away from. Ofc moving away from a 1 sec 60m stun is not possible, BUTT not every ability has such a design, right?

All this will do is encourage people overusing those very abilities. The reason Mirage's blind was nerfed is because many, many people were using it and it trivialized basically everything.

Not every ability has that kind of design, sure, but many or most players will gravitate to maximum effectiveness and/or cheese. Just because only one 'frame had the ability to blind everything everywhere doesn't mean that it was rarely used.

[Voltage]

everyone complaining lately about being oneshotted are either in 2 catagories:

1. The Git Good category

2. NO TEAM COMMUNICATION/SYNERGY. Interception missions? Banshee resonating quake augment, Excavation? Use a good dps but help them out. (Mesa, but team needs auto guns to remove nullifier bubbles). Team communication solves all the problems people have of being cheesed. ALSO, DE is fixing enemy scaling so everyone sit tight and wait for improvements. We don't need more nerfs to ourselves until AFTER DE does their thing.

[-CM-Emptiness]

14 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I did say that enemies would have to be rebalanced as well and there would no longer be any need for cheese enemies like nullifiers and eximuses with their ridiculous auras.

No you didn't. You said you feel everyone is ignoring the real issue of 'player OP' when the fact is, we have many reworks to players and none to enemies. If you agree with enemy-balancing, why are you even considering these added changes to players when the enemy-rework has yet to be implemented?

Save your breath for until DE resolves the original issue. After that, I won't mind what you do.

[--Q--uaint]

6 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back.

The single most amusing thing about this post is that most of these changes already happened.... in Conclave. Making some kind of PvE Conclave would be awesome and probably pretty balanced out of the box.

6 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

I think DE is kinda working on this already, with "Damage 3.0"

That said, crits are still bad (and have been fixed in Conclave!)

6 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

The other problem are warframe powers.

You should totally take a look at https://forums.warframe.com/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-514-the-mystic-the-willful/

 

[Soketsu]

37 minutes ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Are you sure you read anything? I'm saying enemies die too fast and the only place they last longer then a second is in long endless missions, sorties, Lotr,... I also did note that crits affect headshot damage.

 

Yeah, I'm sure that's it. Enemies are designed to give us a challenge. If the players have assault rifles that can hit as hard as a tank gun on full auto and have abilities that can completely lock down enemies then the only way to "challenge" us is to give enemies insane EHP and cheese mechanics. You also assume that High level content is the only relevant area of the game.

Is mindlessly oneshoting enemies and spamming abilities your idea of fun?

my bad, missread you

BUT it change nothing,

supposing now the foes die in 10 sec... so less foes ? less damage ? more drop chance (fallen enemy/ mission reward) more reward /time spent?

you don't want we spam abilities ? ok we need to decrease the number of enemies, we do it we decrease the exp gained, so we need to put more exp/enemy or decrease required exp

you want to limit the restores ? have fun with some moon precept, have fun with energy sorties/event/nightmare if you don't rework them too

what will you do about eximus ?

what will you do against foes who can drain all your energy in instant ?

what did you think about the event where we have to fight enemies who don't care about our powers and we still beat them ?

what do you think about rathum ?

won't even tell you miss talk about of all the way to have large amount energy/ not spending it

so you want whole overhaul that will take large amount of time and may be more for what ?

what is it matter in pve game ? if you don't like that, you don't play with that and you don't annoy the players who don't want to play like you

 

btw like kranker said, the popularity of warframe come from the fact to feeling like a semi-god against army of super armored/shielded foes, and i think is a part true

if you don't like it go on other games like tf2 or test destiny ( i don't even know the basic content of the game but it's not like warframe i think) or you can form a squad of nerfed player go on mid level mission non-op stuff with you own special rule and have fun fighting the ennemy if you think the average players is overpowered,

PS: in the 1 st place why do even continue to play if "we" are too overpowered ?

[Col_Helghan]

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

 

 

I would say I stopped reading there but I read it all.

This also makes me not take this post seriously. I take it this goes for star chart. 

Isn´t this what´s happening in almost every single game where you get good/best GEAR/MODS ? It makes anything but end game trivial. Doesn´t it ? Logic.

Cheese enemies require cheese tactics. Cheese enemies are not a byproduct of cheese frames and cheese weapons, it´s poor design on Devs side.

I am all for reworking the damage, multishot etc etc, but enemies would have to be reworked into something else other than soaking 500 bullets of my most overpowered weapon and still standing. 

To get back on track, EVERY single PvE game I have played where your survivability/damage output depends on getting better gear, trivializes everything but end game content.

End game content in WF is a touchy subject for many but oh well.....

 

Go do Sorties with $&*&*#(%& conditions where you can only cheese or T4 Surv, where same applies as well.

This is not a hate post at all, merely stating that enemies would have to get a serious rework and scaling, then we can talk about reworking frame powers, weapons, mods etc.

[thegamer118]

8 minutes ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

holy *cupcake* the toxicity in this thread is phenomenal. The fact that the second anyone mentions a nerf results in everyone lashing out at the poster with insults instead of relevant arguments to the topic should say a lot about those people.

it s not that somone mentions a nerf, it s someone repeating the same thing over and over and over for more than 2 years and people never get that it s not gonna happen it s not how the devs see the game

this same exact thread has been done a thousand times and i m still as sick on it then ever, people never understand and people just never do anything else, i am so sick of seeing this thread all the time saying the exazct same things, if these changes are to happen it s the devs that will choose not the players that keep repeating and complaining 

Edited June 15, 2016 by thegamer118

[kleerr2]

4 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

All this will do is encourage people overusing those very abilities. The reason Mirage's blind was nerfed is because many, many people were using it and it trivialized basically everything.

Not every ability has that kind of design, sure, but many or most players will gravitate to maximum effectiveness and/or cheese. Just because only one 'frame had the ability to blind everything everywhere doesn't mean that it was rarely used.

It would, BUTT people are already overusing those very abilities, except the enemies will have a brain in the head, be more challenge invoking and they will no longer have to be bulletsponges...

So, what if they gravitate towards max eff, or cheese... what does that have to do with enemy AI and overall better enemy awareness/dodging/movement?!

[GeoffFromAccounting]

2 minutes ago, -CM-Emptiness said:

No you didn't. You said you feel everyone is ignoring the real issue of 'player OP' when the fact is, we have many reworks to players and none to enemies. If you agree with enemy-balancing, why are you even considering these added changes to players when the enemy-rework has yet to be implemented?

Save your breath for until DE resolves the original issue. After that, I won't mind what you do.

I reckon a better idea would be to do both at the same time, because either:

A. the enemies are nerfed to reasonable levels, but we're still ridiculously powerful, so the effects aren't seen. At least not until we're nerfed, which could potentially take a very long time.

B. we are nerfed, but the enemies are left cheesy, I shouldn't need to explain why that's a bad thing.

but if we do both at once, we avoid those issues, and we have balance between us and the enemies (more or less)

[Soketsu]

1 minute ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

I reckon a better idea would be to do both at the same time, because either:

A. the enemies are nerfed to reasonable levels, but we're still ridiculously powerful, so the effects aren't seen. At least not until we're nerfed, which could potentially take a very long time.

B. we are nerfed, but the enemies are left cheesy, I shouldn't need to explain why that's a bad thing.

but if we do both at once, we avoid those issues, and we have balance between us and the enemies (more or less)

but if we do that what will be the point ? the difficulty seem to remain the same, and DE spend their time for what then ?

[(PSN)LiamRising]

2 hours ago, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

I've seen a lot of threads and people commenting about overpowered enemies and their broken scaling, but it almost feels like everyone is just ignoring the pink elephant in the room. Overpowered and cheesy enemies are merely a symptom of another problem.

That problem is that player weapons and powers are way overpowered. Not only is there power creep with each new weapons released, the biggest problem IMO is the weapon modding system. It allows for things like 100x damage increase with the right mods and that's just from weapon mods. Factor in warframe damage boosting abilities and it's easily 1000x damage increase. The result is trivialization of all non endless missions which forces experienced players to either stroll around the map for half an hour so enemies can actually damage them or play sortie and try to out cheese those broken enemies.

The solution would be to fix the modding system so that it actually serves the player play style and is actually skill indexed and not merely flat damage booster.

• Mods like seration need to go. They add nothing to the game other than being resource sinks.
• Multishot mods also need to use extra ammo. There is no reason not to equip them now and they basically cheat the ingame ammo system.
• Elemental damage mods should convert existing damage to their element. Something like converting 40% of stock damage to their element while adding 20% bonus (max rank). This would also have the side effect of making the physical damage type mods viable.
• Add skill indexed mods. These mods would award certain play styles and force players to actually improve their skills instead of just bullet hosing enemies until they die.
• Rework crits. What are crits? Why would there be a % chance of doing more damage? Aren't crits supposed to be extra damage from hitting enemy vitals? Crits would be fine in MMO's with no first person aim, but warframe has that as well as body part damage multipliers. In the end crits serve no purpose other than another flat layer of damage and rewarding headshots.

The other problem are warframe powers. A lot of warframe powers completely disable or outright kill our enemies and for this reason they are supposed to be limited by energy. Powers are supposed to be used sparingly to enhance our play style and get out of tough situations. Unfortunately DE essentially broke their own energy system and now spamming powers has become the norm. It's actually entirely possible to get through non-endless missions without ever using weapons and still do your fair share of damage. Skill spamming also forces DE to give us cheesy enemies to counter our cheese and that's how we got nullifiers, bursas, eximuses,...

So how could DE fix the energy system?

• Nerf efficiency mods. Reducing the cost of skills to 1/4 is the biggest reason why skills are so spammable. What's worse is that this comes with little to no drawbacks which can be countered by duration mods. Efficiency mods are currently the norm since they basically remove the limit on casting. I suggest giving streamline and fleeting expertise more drawbacks and let them do exactly as their names imply. Force the player to decide between a weaker (streamlined) spammable build or more powerful builds.
• Nerf energy vampire. Energy vampire was OP before but with the recent rework of awarding the remaining energy on kill it has become broken. EV should be reverted back to it's original form.
• Rework Trinity. Not only does trinity outperform any other support frame in healing and damage resistance, she can also serve as an infinite energy generator at the same time. And as if that wasn't enough she can also face tank pretty much anything.
• Limit the restores. Limit restores on each revive so the players can't just spam them or give them a cooldown.

So what would the effects of implementing these changes be? For starters the star map would become interesting again. Player skill would actually become a bigger factor which would add more room for growth and increase replayability. Ammo economy and energy management would become important again. Players could choose between modding for physical or elemental damage. DE could remove or nerf cheesy enemies since they would no longer be necessary. Endgame content could be rebalanced so enemies are no longer bullet sponge demigods that players currently don't bother killing if not necessary.

 

I would appreciate any feedback so don't hold back.

ok so firstly you mention that weapons are op have you seen alot of guns some are so weak or have huge issues they are useless some guns badly need a buff or a tweak (like glaxions unholy ammo drain) that even mods sometimes cannot fix and warframe powers are op but s its a horde style game one shotting enemies is the norm just look at cod zombies, samurai/ dynasty warriors at least bursas and other heavy units balance them out a bit.

serration isnt bad but last i heard they might be taking out  and damage from them added to the weapons as they level up (kinda sucks for those with prime point blank fully upgraded). multishot is getting fixed to cost ammo but how it effects weapons like sybaris or burston will need balancing before it probably is released.changing base damage into elemental is just bad as it would make fighting sentients/ new stalker even worse with their damage immunity mechanic. and finally crits i dont know what games you play but ones i play crit damage is the chance the next attack deals bonus damage no matter where shot and in warframe if you headshot enemies it already deals bonus damage not sure how much but it exists crit is fine and needs no fixing.

finally for energy i think its fine as we have nullifiers, combas, leech eximus which can cancel powers/drain energy insanely quick so it does balance out but i kinda agree on making consumable gear like restores cool down per next use since the spam of them is getting ridiculous.

 

 

[-BM-Mitz]

Unlike every other frame in the game, Trinity is the only narrow-focused frame.

If you nerf to S#&$ the support aspect of Trin, without any suggestions how to compensate the frame for it (new powers, playstyle options, overall theme and feel), you're basically saying the frame should be made unusable and unattractive to everyone...

Also keep in mind that some powers/playstyles are MEANT to be used with high efficiency cause the caster role is how they are meant to play. Take a Miasma build for example: With your system, it'll be unusable.

Maybe efficiency is not the problem. Maybe putting a little bigger recast timer on some powers and adding some change of mechanics to make the powers transform the game more interestingly will give people the choice if they want to use powers more or less to match a playstyle.

I think abilities shouldn't be made too rare to access, they're what makes the frames feel unique and play specially. They are a core part of the experience and I'd rather not have it be similar to the rare, not rewarding use of focus...

[--Q--uaint]

3 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

they will no longer have to be bulletsponges...

If the enemies go down to Draco-level toughness, they can be murdered with ridiculous efficiency and will die with no recourse. Rhino Stomp doesn't just do CC, and it isn't the best way to kill, either.

4 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

So, what if they gravitate towards max eff, or cheese... what does that have to do with enemy AI and overall better enemy awareness/dodging/movement?!

You just said they wouldn't be able to realistically beat a CC-Stomp. If they can't avoid it, most people will use it. If most people will use it, it doesn't matter how the AI changes if they still have no agency.

 

 

[-CM-Emptiness]

6 minutes ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

I reckon a better idea would be to do both at the same time, because either:

A. the enemies are nerfed to reasonable levels, but we're still ridiculously powerful, so the effects aren't seen. At least not until we're nerfed, which could potentially take a very long time.

B. we are nerfed, but the enemies are left cheesy, I shouldn't need to explain why that's a bad thing.

but if we do both at once, we avoid those issues, and we have balance between us and the enemies (more or less)

I agree, but honestly, it would never happen since:

1. DE prefers to hand out updates in pieces.

2. DE severely misses the mark when nerfing / buffing content. So it would be a mess if they did both at the same time.

[kleerr2]

2 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

If the enemies go down to Draco-level toughness, they can be murdered with ridiculous efficiency and will die with no recourse. Rhino Stomp doesn't just do CC, and it isn't the best way to kill, either.

You just said they wouldn't be able to realistically beat a CC-Stomp. If they can't avoid it, most people will use it. If most people will use it, it doesn't matter how the AI changes if they still have no agency.

Ok, and what if there are a very few enemies with special conditions, that could... idk save their comrades from a cc somehow, while not being affected by said cc? You just need like 2 or 3 of those in the same time to make things more interesting. You know, power mitigation is a good aspect, when it is not the ''every kind'' of power that gets mitigated...

And guess what, you can already trivialize content with rhino as is, so...

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Just now, Fuzzy-Bunny said:

 

Endless missions are not supposed to be balanced. We're not supposed to stay in T4 for more than an hour. You're talking about Tenno giving the feeling of power, but that pathetic illusion is quickly shattered by 300K EHP bombard that kill you with their homing missiles. Endgame content also excludes most frames and builds/ weapons that are not overpowered or have cheese mechanics.

I never said the game was properly balanced. I've been calling for enemy nerfs - better yet, total enemy overhauls, including new abilities, behaviors, animation sets, improved AI, etc. - and mechanics that prevent, or at least reduce, BS one-shots from max health/shields. Because I think difficulty should come from clever, skillful enemies; not being killed because a bombard and ancient you never saw decided to chain-knockdown your &#! from behind, around a corner, from a balcony, with silenced smart-rockets that are indistinguishable from normal enemy fire, and then a nullifier sat on you.

I support the recent nerfs, although I think some of them merited a more thoughtful rework rather than just number-crunching and caps. I do think enemies should start off sturdier in high-level endless and ramp up slower, in part to compensate for nerfing enemies' ability to one-shot you, and partly because I agree that it's not very engaging when everything dies in one hit.

But one point you keep driving is one I strongly disagree with, and that's "ability spamming" as you call it. I would be alright with more abilities being non-recastable, and being reworked so that their benefit persists. (Example: Nyx's Chaos not being recastable, but having Chaos Sphere as an innate function that lasts for the duration of the power instead of just a few seconds.) I agree CC needs a hard look. But your approach is designed to eliminate playstyles, not balance the game. Some of your suggestions would kill power-centric playstyles. (No, I'm not talking about EV. That's just a crutch for players who can't properly manage their energy.) Speaking as a 50% efficiency Saryn Prime main, I don't agree that powers are meant to be used sparingly. Guns are not the focus of your arsenal; your frame is.

I agree with some of your ideas, but not at all with your method or intent.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

10 minutes ago, Soketsu said:

but if we do that what will be the point ? the difficulty seem to remain the same, and DE spend their time for what then ?

I don't think you understood what I was saying, what I'm saying is nerf us both at the same time so that no one side has only cheese tactics to work with. Because if we only nerf enemies, then there's going to be a large period of time where we're even more powerful than we are now which will make the game even more boring and monotonous. However, if we only nerf ourselves, then we don't have the cheese necessary to combat enemy cheese, leading to frustration and boredom. So if we nerf both sides at once, we eliminate cheese in general, so both sides are balanced and neither side are required to use cheese to combat the other

[-CM-Hekovashi]

OP clearly show that he haven't done any actual endgame content-aka 3rd sortie, or 60+ min t4 surv or 40+ waves in t4 defs. And no, THATS the endgame that we have, it exist so by any logic we should be able to beat it. I dare you to go for 2 hours t4 surv with no flat damage mods and such, only then you be allowed to talk, mercury master race.

[Gilmaesh]

We are overpowered but i think it's part of the fun in the game though there is overpowered and cheese overpowered. 

Some weapons need a nerf, but most of them are fine, in fact lots of them could use a buff.

For the warframes, i think everything could be a bit more balanced if :

• we didn't have so much range with some abilities, enemies don't stand a chance really. As soon as they appear we can cc them or kill them depending on the level
• efficiency/energy was reworked a bit, EV and 175% efficiency are a problem, we end up with energy leech, abilities spam and players who can't play a 20 waves def without a trin, that's ridiculous. 
• invisibility was reduced

If we make some adjustments on our side and if DE reduce the cheese from some enemies, we should end up with a better gameplay overall.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Gilmaesh