Starchart 3.0: Is this about right?

[Gigaus]

Had someone toss me a link to devstream 76 explaining what's going to be going on with the starchart, and then add in a list of stuff that was on the wiki and newpost....To so I'm clear, is this about what's changing?

 

• 200+ nodes getting condensed down to 20, still. 
• - Of those, all the missions are random, still.
• There won't be a way to select what mission you get when you want it
• Void keys are being converted to these Projections, and the void is going to be an open node with random missions.
• Void drops are going to be on random mission types and tiles, and you need to complete several missions to get one drop.
• Void drops are now going to be combined together, and follow a transmutation system similar to cores
• All other systems, which were designed around having 200+ nodes, are not being adjusted to account for only having a tenth of the available space. 

Is that about right, or have I missed something? 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Gigaus

[UltimateGrr]

31 minutes ago, Gigaus said:

200+ nodes getting condensed down to 20, still. 

200+ nodes into something like 100 or so.  Earth had like 6, but the preview of Eris had about 12.

32 minutes ago, Gigaus said:

- Of those, all the missions are random, still.

Mission type will cycle mission types on a regular basis, so a node will always spawn the same mission type every time you play until it cycles again.

33 minutes ago, Gigaus said:

There won't be a way to select what mission you get when you want it

...Yes and no.  You won't be able to get Ship Yard interception (Draco) when you want it, but since low level nodes will have high level options, you'll mostly be able to get the mission type you want against the faction you want, but tile set is up in the air.

36 minutes ago, Gigaus said:

• Void keys are being converted to these Projections, and the void is going to be an open node with random missions.
• Void drops are going to be on random mission types and tiles, and you need to complete several missions to get one drop.
• Void drops are now going to be combined together, and follow a transmutation system similar to cores

Void missions will spawn in a similar fashion to alerts, and void keys will become projections, which can be used to weigh the RNG system towards the prime item you want.  Beyond that, not a lot is really known at this time.

[Harloq]

Sounds bad, then probably about right.

I lost faith in the DEv team.

[CKNPOTPIE]

You'll still be able to find mission types, and they'll still be labeled what they are and where. The mission cycling is to keep people from simply just sticking to draco or other mass xp farms just to cheese the game, instead of ya know, playing it. Because we all know that would be too difficult.

 

What i'm curious about is with the removal of nodes and the new directional system, is if you will have to work your way back through the solar system back to where you were.

Edited June 26, 2016 by CKNPOTPIE

[Harloq]

6 minutes ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

You'll still be able to find mission types, and they'll still be labeled what they are and where. The mission cycling is to keep people from simply just sticking to draco or other mass xp farms just to cheese the game, instead of ya know, playing it. Because we all know that would be too difficult.

They use the cave loots as a excuse to make changes, "there always be a loot cave". By what you said there will be a time wen Interception will be removed from the game.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Harloq
"i"

[CKNPOTPIE]

1 minute ago, Harloq said:

They use the cave loots as a excuse to make changes, "there always be a loot cave". By what you sad there will be a time wen Interception will be removed from the game.

"Cave loot" is the problem though. Try putting yourself into their shoes, you spend time developing a game and people only stick to 4 maybe five missions in the game instead of playing the rest of it, unless it's for an alert. They're trying to get people to play the game, instead of having people stick to a select few missions to level up and play. They aren't using it as an "excuse", they're using it as a way to force people to actually play the game instead of spending 15 minutes on draco to get a max level weapon. And also, they aren't going to be removing any game modes. Think of it this way, you have plato, earth being interception for about 15 minutes, before it cycles then to a spy mission while in the meantime draco on ceres switches from excavation to interception for 15 minutes. (not the actual time span, just an example).

[Recel]

I'm really wondering how the void and it's drops will work. With all the different items dropping from all the different type of missions, making it random, even with a kind of "token" to help with the drop... I don't know. Sounds like another layer of RNG on top of the RNG for prime items. Unless I misunderstood something.

[CKNPOTPIE]

Just now, Recel said:

I'm really wondering how the void and it's drops will work. With all the different items dropping from all the different type of missions, making it random, even with a kind of "token" to help with the drop... I don't know. Sounds like another layer of RNG on top of the RNG for prime items. Unless I misunderstood something.

So it does sound a little like that, and you would be correct, but it actually adds ways to relieve void farming fatigue. How it works is void tears will open randomly in missions (ex: t4 void tear) and you will travel to those missions.After getting to that tear you then use your void projection to grab a prime part out of there. Now this part, I am not sure about it is just what I have heard so take this with a grain of salt: You will also be able to use things (can't remember the name) to sway the rng in a way, to get a more valuable part in a way. you use thing a to raise drop chance from 5% to maybe 15%. So in a way yes, it is more RNG, but at the same time it is also with less effort required, with the ability to sway it in your favor. So, it comes with its downsides, but it also does come with some upsides to it aswell.

[Gigaus]

34 minutes ago, UltimateGrr said:

200+ nodes into something like 100 or so.  Earth had like 6, but the preview of Eris had about 12.

Mission type will cycle mission types on a regular basis, so a node will always spawn the same mission type every time you play until it cycles again.

...Yes and no.  You won't be able to get Ship Yard interception (Draco) when you want it, but since low level nodes will have high level options, you'll mostly be able to get the mission type you want against the faction you want, but tile set is up in the air.

Void missions will spawn in a similar fashion to alerts, and void keys will become projections, which can be used to weigh the RNG system towards the prime item you want.  Beyond that, not a lot is really known at this time.

Thank you for spacing the quotes out....I'm not going to because I don't feel like putzing around with the code here.

Okay, so it's not going to be the 20 that they said for some time now, but 100, okay. But it's still going to be random what is available. So you could end up with a map with several mobile defense missions, and no survival, is that about right, or is it going to be a case of 'one of each mission will spawn at least out of the 100'? 

And again, that's the Transmutation system. We already have that system where you can 'weigh' what you can get, and still end up with crap. It sounds like they took the advice of all the veterens of introducing a token system, and bent it so it had RNG, when it was designed to 100% eliminate RNG :/

 

41 minutes ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

You'll still be able to find mission types, and they'll still be labeled what they are and where. The mission cycling is to keep people from simply just sticking to draco or other mass xp farms just to cheese the game, instead of ya know, playing it. Because we all know that would be too difficult.

 

What i'm curious about is with the removal of nodes and the new directional system, is if you will have to work your way back through the solar system back to where you were.

So like we all originally said when this idea was pitched-- It's going to be the same mission system as Payday 2, but without the ability to pick what missions you want to do at a premium.

As to the 'cheesing the game', I'm sorry but I have to say you don't know anything about this game or genre if you think fast leveling up after being set back to zero is cheesing. The reason people aren't playing these other levels and maps is because they suck, not because there's too much choice or options. I don't play Sabotage, Rescue, or Extermination not because I want to cheese or 'not play the game', I don't play them because they're boring and they offer nothing worthwhile. Taking away the option to chose your missions isn't going to fix that, it has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. 

And even still, people are going to 'cheese' it by finding the good maps and focusing on those. Every developer that's tried to counter efficient leveling has either seen their game die because of it, or players completely side stepping their waste of time and finding a way to do it differently. So nothing gets solved there. 

[Slaviar]

1 hour ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

"Cave loot" is the problem though. Try putting yourself into their shoes, you spend time developing a game and people only stick to 4 maybe five missions in the game instead of playing the rest of it, unless it's for an alert. They're trying to get people to play the game, instead of having people stick to a select few missions to level up and play. They aren't using it as an "excuse", they're using it as a way to force people to actually play the game instead of spending 15 minutes on draco to get a max level weapon. And also, they aren't going to be removing any game modes. Think of it this way, you have plato, earth being interception for about 15 minutes, before it cycles then to a spy mission while in the meantime draco on ceres switches from excavation to interception for 15 minutes. (not the actual time span, just an example).

People are sitting at few missions because almost entire starchart has crap rewards

[CKNPOTPIE]

You'll still be able to choose the mission you want to play, you're just going to have to look around for a node that has it and it's as simple as that.

[CKNPOTPIE]

Just now, Slaviar said:

People are sitting at few missions because almost entire starchart has crap rewards

Which is what will probably be being changed with the introduction of the new system.

[Slaviar]

12 minutes ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

Which is what will probably be being changed with the introduction of the new system.

But why add unnecessary RNG? Why not simply cut amount of nodes down and distribute rewards better?

[CKNPOTPIE]

Just now, Slaviar said:

But why add unnecessary RNG? Why not simply cut amount of nodes down and distribute rewards better?

That's what they're doing, it's void rng they're changing.

[CKNPOTPIE]

41 minutes ago, Gigaus said:

So like we all originally said when this idea was pitched-- It's going to be the same mission system as Payday 2, but without the ability to pick what missions you want to do at a premium.

As to the 'cheesing the game', I'm sorry but I have to say you don't know anything about this game or genre if you think fast leveling up after being set back to zero is cheesing. The reason people aren't playing these other levels and maps is because they suck, not because there's too much choice or options. I don't play Sabotage, Rescue, or Extermination not because I want to cheese or 'not play the game', I don't play them because they're boring and they offer nothing worthwhile. Taking away the option to chose your missions isn't going to fix that, it has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. 

And even still, people are going to 'cheese' it by finding the good maps and focusing on those. Every developer that's tried to counter efficient leveling has either seen their game die because of it, or players completely side stepping their waste of time and finding a way to do it differently. So nothing gets solved there. 

Good point. But I 100% do consider being able to level a wep back up to 30 with 10 minutes of little effort is broken in my opinion.

 

But from what i have heard is they are going to be making some rewards mission specific, so that all missions in the end are going to be worthwhile to play. Sort of similar to getting ivara parts from spy missions but nowhere else.

Edited June 27, 2016 by CKNPOTPIE

[Slaviar]

22 minutes ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

That's what they're doing, it's void rng they're changing.

No, they are adding rotating missions. RNG or not, it's not necessary

[CKNPOTPIE]

5 minutes ago, Slaviar said:

No, they are adding rotating missions. RNG or not, it's not necessary

I see and understand your point now. I'm sure if enough negative feedback comes from the community it will be changed, because as contradictory as it sounds i'm not a big fan of the rotating mission concept. While it is interesting, it doesnt make a lot of sense for lore or being able to just go and find a mission you want to play.

They've described the new starchart as an experiment, and i'm sure that they will tweak accordingly similar to lunaro.

Edited June 27, 2016 by CKNPOTPIE

[Xzorn]

People sit on one mission because they've forced us into doing so.

 

People used to do Survival for specific mods and cores but they never added new ones. People use to do Defense but there's no longer a mandatory Void key drop at 15. We used to lean on certain spots for resources but they've halved the drop amount. The rare resources are a joke, the ONLY rare resource is Nuerodes and since they added the Moon Tileset they nerfed to drop rate everywhere else. Forcing us to play the Moon for them or in my case buy the recipe. They make rewards for new mission types like Excavation stupidly good esp in comparison to the nerfed or neglected missions types.

Enemy item drops are basically the same they've been for 3 years, there's little incentive to kill enemies these days, esp in the Void. The Alert system in a running gag and 90% garbage even to a 1st day player. It's entirely their fault through neglect or poor itemization that player do what they do.

Draco is nothing special, You'll do Draco all the way to MR 21 and maybe have 1k plat. Grats cuz the real game is stacking plat, maxing mods and looking cool.

The new Void is prolly gunna suck, I wouldn't be surprised if they put a limit per rotation kinda like Syndicate missions. They cap everything in this game in desperation to stretch content.

[CKNPOTPIE]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

People sit on one mission because they've forced us into doing so.

 

People used to do Survival for specific mods and cores but they never added new ones. People use to do Defense but there's no longer a mandatory Void key drop at 15. We used to lean on certain spots for resources but they've halved the drop amount. The rare resources are a joke, the ONLY rare resource is Nuerodes and since they added the Moon Tileset they nerfed to drop rate everywhere else. Forcing us to play the Moon for them or in my case buy the recipe. They make rewards for new mission types like Excavation stupidly good esp in comparison to the nerfed or neglected missions types.

Enemy item drops are basically the same they've been for 3 years, there's little incentive to kill enemies these days, esp in the Void. The Alert system in a running gag and 90% garbage even to a 1st day player. It's entirely their fault through neglect or poor itemization that player do what they do.

Draco is nothing special, You'll do Draco all the way to MR 21 and maybe have 1k plat. Grats cuz the real game is stacking plat, maxing mods and looking cool.

The new Void is prolly gunna suck, I wouldn't be surprised if they put a limit per rotation kinda like Syndicate missions. They cap everything in this game in desperation to stretch content.

Good point.

[AandOE]

Since the Void is becoming a regular tile set, I may finally be able to just do all of the various Captures there that I like to do. Not that they'll have Void rewards attached to them anymore, but since I run through every Capture key (as soon as I get one) for the thrill of it now....

[CKNPOTPIE]

2 minutes ago, AandOE said:

Since the Void is becoming a regular tile set, I may finally be able to just do all of the various Captures there that I like to do. Not that they'll have Void rewards attached to them anymore, but since I run through every Capture key (as soon as I get one) for the thrill of it now....

It is kind of nice, because i like to travel to the void and enjoy how beautiful the tileset is.

[Gigaus]

3 hours ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

You'll still be able to choose the mission you want to play, you're just going to have to look around for a node that has it and it's as simple as that.

.....So you mean, yes, not no. What you just said is exactly what I was asking about: You don't get to choose missions, you get to pick from the randomly offered ones.

Do me a favor, and I want everyone to do this who hasn't seen it before, go to youtube and look up videos of Payday 2 and it's mission select system-- Crime.net. To give you an idea of what it is: You go in to a small, meaningless map that for some reason has nodes popping up in different places , with different missions, difficulties, and the like. You have 0 control over what pops up. On the side, you can spend ingame currency to choose what mission you want to play. 

This is the system that was originally pitched by DE when they brought up SC 3.0, and from all accounts is the system they are going with now.

So no, we are not waiting to hear and see what they are going to do with it, we already have a prime example of it, except that Warframe's version lacks the ability to select any mission you want at any time. And for the record, even the developers of Payday 2 said the mission system was terrible, but they couldn't change it because of how deep in the coding it is.

3 hours ago, CKNPOTPIE said:

Good point. But I 100% do consider being able to level a wep back up to 30 with 10 minutes of little effort is broken in my opinion.

 

But from what i have heard is they are going to be making some rewards mission specific, so that all missions in the end are going to be worthwhile to play. Sort of similar to getting ivara parts from spy missions but nowhere else.

Don't get me wrong, I find the entire concept to be a failure in balancing, no matter what game you're in; if you can go from 0 to max in a single mission, baring 'infinite missions' where you do it for a long time, then there's a serious imbalance in the game. That said, this won't balance that problem. This just adds a roadblock; Players are going to find a specific mission type that will award that crap ton of Exp, and whenever it pops up, no one will play the other missions and just sit on that one. So the problem isn't solved, AND we now have less choice and control over what we can play. A loss in my book...

And if they make more rewards mission specific, after taking away the ability to choose those missions, then they're just trolling us now. They might as well say 'What's that? You want less RNG in our game? Okay! For complaining about a serious design flaw, lets add more of that in just to punish you. Are you going to speak out again?'

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

People sit on one mission because they've forced us into doing so.

 

People used to do Survival for specific mods and cores but they never added new ones. People use to do Defense but there's no longer a mandatory Void key drop at 15. We used to lean on certain spots for resources but they've halved the drop amount. The rare resources are a joke, the ONLY rare resource is Nuerodes and since they added the Moon Tileset they nerfed to drop rate everywhere else. Forcing us to play the Moon for them or in my case buy the recipe. They make rewards for new mission types like Excavation stupidly good esp in comparison to the nerfed or neglected missions types.

Enemy item drops are basically the same they've been for 3 years, there's little incentive to kill enemies these days, esp in the Void. The Alert system in a running gag and 90% garbage even to a 1st day player. It's entirely their fault through neglect or poor itemization that player do what they do.

Draco is nothing special, You'll do Draco all the way to MR 21 and maybe have 1k plat. Grats cuz the real game is stacking plat, maxing mods and looking cool.

The new Void is prolly gunna suck, I wouldn't be surprised if they put a limit per rotation kinda like Syndicate missions. They cap everything in this game in desperation to stretch content.

Pretty much this in a nutshell. When I started playing this what...I want to say a year and a half back? Before the Gradivus Dilemma, all my friends and I would run was Defense, Survival, MD, and Void. And some Assassination. No Exterminate, Spy, Sabotage, Capture, Deception-- Nothing else. Why? There was no good rewards for them, and they weren't fun. Where as the others had rewards that were and still are mandatory to continue playing the game. Think for a minute if they removed Defense and Survival along with the Void. Where would you go? What missions would you regularly do?

Then we had Conflicts come out, and people would drop everything they were doing to go do conflicts because of the rewards, regardless if they liked it or not. Then Excavation came out, and people stopped playing Defense because you couldn't lose Excavation and it had extra rewards. Then the moon came out...or back, whatever, and people had to goto the moon to get what they needed, even if they didn't like the missions.

People aren't sitting on single mission nodes because they're lazy or don't want to play the game. The game is designed and balanced around them sitting on these nodes, making them mandatory. I mean hell, look at the change to the map. They're removing the Void because everyone and their brother playing HAS to goto the void to do anything in the game, leaving everywhere else untouched.

All in all, it feels like this change it to cover up the flaws of their game that they haven't fixed in the three years they've been working on it, and instead it's highlighting them more. 

 

[CKNPOTPIE]

While I do agree with all of the points you bring up, I feel like the random missions wont be as big of a problem as they are in Payday. There will be around a hundred nodes, so it shouldnt be difficult to find the mission you want. But the problem that arises with this is the rng for reward scaling for things that drop from that mission type. Sorry for this, I just didnt have a clear idea of what you were getting at here.