All these rotation Cs are giving me PTSD to Vauban Access

[Faulcun]

4 hours ago, Nemsi said:

This argument gets repeated over and over, but can anyone prove it right?? I highly doubt it. People who dont want to bleed out in the unreasonable grind will buy the parts for plat in the trade chat. The only people who will actually buy the furiously overpriced prime access are those who really want it, not those unprone to grind.

 

This is simple economics, bro. This is a free to play game. Everything about this business model has to be designed around micro transactions being the path of least resistance for the player. For example, around the time DE was purchased for ~$75m by SUMPO, the fried chicken company, they put out a financial report and a copy of the agreement. During that year, DE made around $30m. After expenses, the profit was around $7m.

DE originally started with a much smaller staff producing this product. With the success of warframe, I believe that staff has grown much larger. I do not believe warframe is or was their only project, but i believe it is their main source of income. Simple business says that if you are feeding money into a project that isnt providing a return, then you abandon the project. We all know that after 3 years, this game is self sustaining, if not right from the beginning. In fact, its the success of this game that provided the opportunity for the large investment.

We've already established that this game functions purely from micro-transactions. From an investors standpoint, if I put $75m into a company, I would be very diligent in making sure I get a return on my investment. Therefore, if my business model works, then you let it work. But it also means, that DE has to be careful in what and how they change the system. Too much in one direction or the other causes them to lose money. This also dives into why "loot caves" like draco are so harmful to DE. But thats another topic, and the damage has already been done there. 

Ive also already explained in another post above how trading feeds into that business model.

Hope thats a good enough explanation for you

[Circle_of_Psi]

19 hours ago, Faulcun said:

its designed to nudge you in the direction of just purchasing the prime access instead. One of three things are going to happen. You'll farm the missions, in which case nothing has changed. You'll buy the prime access, in which case DE is happy cause they have your money. Or, you just stop playing the game all together, and DE doesnt care cause you werent spending money with them anyways.

Wow..

[Faulcun]

4 hours ago, LegionCynex said:

Wow..

You are either surprised at the truth, or you totally think im full of it. While the developers may be passionate about their project, a $75m investment simply means that its business before pleasure. We might have fun here, but for them, its still a job putting food on the table. Dont think for a moment that when the money stops flowing from this game that the development wont stop right along with it.

[FierceRadiance]

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

You are either surprised at the truth, or you totally think im full of it. While the developers may be passionate about their project, a $75m investment simply means that its business before pleasure. We might have fun here, but for them, its still a job putting food on the table. Dont think for a moment that when the money stops flowing from this game that the development wont stop right along with it.

Sadly, this IS exactly what too large a percentage of players believe ~ that DE has a money tree and doesn't need them to support the game financially.

"DE'll be fiiiiine, just gimme this thing for free that I rilly rilly want, DE'll never miss muh munnee!"  These folk will pretend to be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when DE shutters WF because not enough people bought stuff.  (Then of course they'll blame all those other other Tenno who never bought anything...)

[Voltage]

22 minutes ago, FierceRadiance said:

Sadly, this IS exactly what too large a percentage of players believe ~ that DE has a money tree and doesn't need them to support the game financially.

"DE'll be fiiiiine, just gimme this thing for free that I rilly rilly want, DE'll never miss muh munnee!"  These folk will pretend to be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when DE shutters WF because not enough people bought stuff.  (Then of course they'll blame all those other other Tenno who never bought anything...)

DE would have a money tree if they actually created good mechanics instead of in an infinite loop of fixing old broken mechanics because they are lazy. I would pay for things and support DE if they had thier Sheet together. At this point, supporting Daybreak for H1Z1 by buying crates is on the same level of supporting DE in my eyes. 

3 things to help DE and the game:

- Remove conclave and Lunaro and make the only PvP Dark Sectors (balanced)

- Stop being and lazy and when creating new mechanics do it right. NO MORE Body Counts, Harkonar Scopes, Rotation C when not needed, Archwing "quick fixes *cough U17 cough*

- Fix the grind. Remove the Vault and:

Direlect: Formas, a few frames, a few cheap "tier 1" prime weapons (Braton, burston etc), T2, and T3 key rewards

Moon: a few tier 2 weapons and 1-2 frames (Lex Prime, Spira Prime, Nyx Prime etc)

Void: All warframes scaling on T2-T4 missions, REMOVE ALL KEY REWARDS FROM T1, moved all cores, orokin cells to T1, Formas to T2 and T3 ROTATION A, Tier 3 weapons (Fragor, Scindo, Boltor, Soma)

 

DE obviously wont do this because it makes the game manageable and less people will pay for PA. It is MUCH easier so far to go grind a few void missions, sell the loot and buy what you want instead of killing yourself for 1 part in T3D R C.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by -Voltage-

[Faulcun]

I mean lets simplify this for a moment. If anybody here made millions of dollars a year, and somebody else came up to you and said "hey, mind giving up a few million this year so that my casual passtime is mentally less stressful for me?"

Its funny just thinking about it...

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

I mean lets simplify this for a moment. If anybody here made millions of dollars a year, and somebody else came up to you and said "hey, mind giving up a few million this year so that my casual passtime is mentally less stressful for me?"

Its funny just thinking about it...

sad but not really. Look at Runescape, they please the community everytime because they do polls on what should be added/removed/reworked. DE is out of the loop of players and that is a HUGE issue. If DE saw some of these issues everyone talks about, we would be 1 step in the right direction

[Faulcun]

52 minutes ago, -Voltage- said:

sad but not really. Look at Runescape, they please the community everytime because they do polls on what should be added/removed/reworked. DE is out of the loop of players and that is a HUGE issue. If DE saw some of these issues everyone talks about, we would be 1 step in the right direction

I agree that DE's priorities are in the wrong places on a lot of things.

heres some steam stats

http://steamcharts.com/app/230410#7d

 

[Nemsi]

On 29. 6. 2016 at 4:23 PM, Faulcun said:

This is simple economics, bro. This is a free to play game. Everything about this business model has to be designed around micro transactions being the path of least resistance for the player. For example, around the time DE was purchased for ~$75m by SUMPO, the fried chicken company, they put out a financial report and a copy of the agreement. During that year, DE made around $30m. After expenses, the profit was around $7m.

DE originally started with a much smaller staff producing this product. With the success of warframe, I believe that staff has grown much larger. I do not believe warframe is or was their only project, but i believe it is their main source of income. Simple business says that if you are feeding money into a project that isnt providing a return, then you abandon the project. We all know that after 3 years, this game is self sustaining, if not right from the beginning. In fact, its the success of this game that provided the opportunity for the large investment.

We've already established that this game functions purely from micro-transactions. From an investors standpoint, if I put $75m into a company, I would be very diligent in making sure I get a return on my investment. Therefore, if my business model works, then you let it work. But it also means, that DE has to be careful in what and how they change the system. Too much in one direction or the other causes them to lose money. This also dives into why "loot caves" like draco are so harmful to DE. But thats another topic, and the damage has already been done there. 

Ive also already explained in another post above how trading feeds into that business model.

Hope thats a good enough explanation for you

Thanks bro, but Im afraid you missed my point. I simply pointed out that I highly doubt that the excessive grind and the absurd traffic jam on rotation C would nudge anyone buy the PA like you wrote before. No, those people would rather take the trade channel route and spend plat. Not the real and huge money for PA. Thats it. I dont criticize DEs business model, I  only questioned your initial grind argument.

On a side note, the price of PA is not a microtransaction.

And yes it is hugely overpriced imo. Im not entirely sure if DE did their ecenomic homework right when setting the PA business model. I still think that halved price or separately sold accessories would yield higher profit, but maybe thats just my uninformed opinion.

[Rakosta_Kai]

It's a headache.

...But I expect the new improved acquisition method to be even more onerous.

As such, I treasure the last few days before it all goes Ker-Plow

[(PSN)antonislak]

On 6/30/2016 at 4:13 AM, Faulcun said:

I agree that DE's priorities are in the wrong places on a lot of things.

heres some steam stats

http://steamcharts.com/app/230410#7d

 

That's gold.

Ppl are burnt with the endless missions and the heavy grind i totally understand the decline, reworks are totally needed in both pve and pvp and that's coming from a new client like me that in the first 200 h put already 200 euros and i already prefer to do anything else but surv/def. Caps, sab and exter are the ones i tend to not feel burnt after x number of missions.

If they want to keep me playing (and paying) i suggest they do things fast, i appreciate and like this game a lot but i don't commit to any game whatsoever. 

[Faulcun]

6 hours ago, Nemsi said:

Thanks bro, but Im afraid you missed my point. I simply pointed out that I highly doubt that the excessive grind and the absurd traffic jam on rotation C would nudge anyone buy the PA like you wrote before. No, those people would rather take the trade channel route and spend plat. Not the real and huge money for PA. Thats it. I dont criticize DEs business model, I  only questioned your initial grind argument.

On a side note, the price of PA is not a microtransaction.

And yes it is hugely overpriced imo. Im not entirely sure if DE did their ecenomic homework right when setting the PA business model. I still think that halved price or separately sold accessories would yield higher profit, but maybe thats just my uninformed opinion.

I have clan members who buy the prime access every time, and proceed to farm the parts anyways to help others. I have clan members who have grinded and grinded, gave up and purchased prime access cause of the accessories with it. I have clan members who grinded endlessly, and happen to get a 50-75% off login reward, broke down and bought platinum, and proceeded to trade for the parts they needed.

But whether you purchased platinum, or earned it though trading, it all has the same result in the end, because there is a finite amount of platinum that exists at any given time. So ill quote myself to explain it again.

On 6/29/2016 at 2:34 AM, Faulcun said:

All trading does is transfer platinum from those willing to buy it, to those willing to spend it. The more trading is done, the more platinum will be spent. Platinum is a finite quantity in the warframe economy. Those willing to buy it once, will be willing to buy it again. I understand very clearly how this F2P model works.

I have around 200 people on my friends list. I only see a handful of them online at any given time. Some of them will never log in again... having been absent for more than 1000 days. The blunt fact is that people do stop playing the game... pretty often. We filled our clan to the top, and I remove people who have been absent for more than 30 days in an attempt to keep active people. We are constantly having to replace people. New people, veteran people... high MR, low MR... doesnt matter. People stop playing for a multitude of reasons.

Because of this, DE constantly puts out content updates and releases. There are 300something weapons in this game, and save for a couple dozen, the community considers most of them "mastery fodder" (I do not share this opinion).  The trick is to release content with shiny bells and whistles to get you to buy it once. Everybody has an expiration date on their time in this game. So content is pumped out to maximize on your willingness to spend real money on it before you stop playing.

In the end, trading for things, or the transfer of platinum, is merely a second tool to increase the flow of platinum. Whether its traded to somebody who spends it on cosmetics, or to somebody who hordes it and never spends it.... at the end of the day, its leaving the hands of somebody willing to buy it. Once they have spent it all, as I said before, they more than likely will be willing to buy it again. Anything that increases the flow of platinum away from those willing to buy it is all part of the plan.

 

[BlackCoMerc]

On 6/28/2016 at 6:44 PM, (PS4)KrakenUnchained said:

This game economy is based on 2 kind of players.. Who buy the PA saving hes own time spending plat on trading and who dont buy PA spending time farming and selling things, both are absolutely useful.

You should understand that if there are no sellers (mostly of them are people that dont buy PA but they anyway wants plat to spend), all the "wallet warriors" ready to buy any prime trash ingame will just stop buy the PA..

Is just a dog that bites hes own tail and DE knows, thats why they CARE if you stop playing even if you never bought a single PA

When the grind starts to drive away the players who don't pay...that will be the beginning of the end. Those are the people who enable Play to flow, because they have the goods for sale. When the grind becomes too much for them, everything will fall apart.

[undernown]

On 30/06/2016 at 0:06 AM, -Voltage- said:

3 things to help DE and the game:

- Remove conclave and Lunaro and make the only PvP Dark Sectors (balanced)

- Stop being and lazy and when creating new mechanics do it right. NO MORE Body Counts, Harkonar Scopes, Rotation C when not needed, Archwing "quick fixes *cough U17 cough*

So you want to bring back that broken bladestorm spam fest, with greedy clans making all non-pvp players life harder with exuberant taxes? No thanks. Also just because YOU don't  like Lunaro, doesn't  mean EVERYONE doesn't  like Lunaro.

Also calling DE lazy is rude and incorrect, they work hard, and have worked overtime on several updates just to get the update to you before their weekends. Yes band-aid mods are bad, but even after they should improve those combo mechanics, there wouls still be a good reason for those mods to exists.

Finaly have wached any of the Devstreamstreams? Half, if not more, of these points have already been talked about in there. Like archwing movement and missiins, coming in fact with the upcoming update.

 

On 30/06/2016 at 0:06 AM, -Voltage- said:

Fix the grind. Remove the Vault and:

Direlect: Formas, a few frames, a few cheap "tier 1" prime weapons (Braton, burston etc), T2, and T3 key rewards

News flash: The grind will stay, but it will take a (hopefully) more pleasant form in upcomming updates. Also Prime Vaults will never go away now i'm afraid. Best we can hope for is a seperate accesories pack and more frequent returns... But I won't get my hopes up.

Again you suggest feedback on personal bias. You already determine that Burston and Braton Prime is worth far less then a Boltor Prime. Who are you to make that claim of what value it has? There all Prime and should all have the same value, atleast regarding the drop tables.

On 30/06/2016 at 0:06 AM, -Voltage- said:

Moon: a few tier 2 weapons and 1-2 frames (Lex Prime, Spira Prime, Nyx Prime etc)

Void: All warframes scaling on T2-T4 missions, REMOVE ALL KEY REWARDS FROM T1, moved all cores, orokin cells to T1, Formas to T2 and T3 ROTATION A, Tier 3 weapons (Fragor, Scindo, Boltor, Soma)

And again, watch those devstreams! The void is gonna blow up, the rewards wil be aquered in a completely difderent way.

[(PSN)KrakenUnchained]

31 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

When the grind starts to drive away the players who don't pay...that will be the beginning of the end. Those are the people who enable Play to flow, because they have the goods for sale. When the grind becomes too much for them, everything will fall apart.

Thats exactly the point, who dont pay is used to put an huge amount of time ingame to get what he needs and to get spares for selling, if they ll burn out the game, the trading will be lost

[BlackCoMerc]

On 6/29/2016 at 5:45 PM, FierceRadiance said:

Sadly, this IS exactly what too large a percentage of players believe ~ that DE has a money tree and doesn't need them to support the game financially.

"DE'll be fiiiiine, just gimme this thing for free that I rilly rilly want, DE'll never miss muh munnee!"  These folk will pretend to be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when DE shutters WF because not enough people bought stuff.  (Then of course they'll blame all those other other Tenno who never bought anything...)

Many people are coming from predominantly single player games. You pay $60. Or less. The dev maybes issues a patch or two for fixes. Done.

This game needs constant development. It's either this business model, or subscription. Though I would prefer a $9.99/month sub and FAR less grind, myself, but to each their own.

Fact remains: this game needs constant revenue streams to survive.

That said: it's walking a fine line right now. Pay us for Forma to make gear better, but only AFTER we reset it first? Btw...would you like a Booster to get past that reset faster?

Me...I will wait for at least Spectre, to see what direction the new game takes, before I spend more.

[SilentMobius]

On 6/29/2016 at 0:36 PM, (PS4)tigurinn said:

If they truly wanted that they wouldn't be putting as much as possible into C rot with a low droprate. So don't get your hopes up too high.

Don't need to get our "hopes up" we know that specific missions types are not going to have any influence on which reward you get. Once you have a projection that may drop the dohicky you want you can run any tear mission of the same tier, if you don't want to run endless missions then don't and wait until the tear mission type changes.

[Replacement]

Science Fact: When I run a Defense of any Tower level (including ODD) with 2 friends, one of us has ended up asleep at the wheel by wave 16 every time we've ran it in 2016.

Rotation C's would be less painful if the missions didn't take 20 minutes just to get interesting.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Replacement

[-Sandman]

On 6/29/2016 at 3:19 AM, Senpai-Pie said:

"We want to reduce the grind."

-DE Every Single Day

 

If Spectres of the Rails introduces rotation C 2.0 instead of fixing this problem then imagine the live backlash at Tennocon.

 

Same thing, different way. 

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

On 6/28/2016 at 1:48 PM, Faulcun said:

its designed to nudge you in the direction of just purchasing the prime access instead. One of three things are going to happen. You'll farm the missions, in which case nothing has changed. You'll buy the prime access, in which case DE is happy cause they have your money. Or, you just stop playing the game all together, and DE doesnt care cause you werent spending money with them anyways.

or you stop giving them money and DE does care when large numbers of no more money are involved?

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, (PS4)aiptekfanboy said:

or you stop giving them money and DE does care when large numbers of no more money are involved?

Well yes, consumers are supposed to speak with their wallets. Thats not exactly what we do though. Aside from warframe, players spend way too much money buying "season passes" and DAY 1 DLC or whatever from bad companies like EA. Fortunately Warframe is nothing like that, however that doesnt mean it doesnt have its faults either.

But more than likely what will happen is, when money stops flowing from this game, they will end development, and launch a new project with a fresh start. In fact they are already in partnership with another company co-developing another project already. Im sure they already have a line of projects ready to go, if not already being worked on when warframe dies.

[Berserkerkitten]

Trying to get Ash Prime's BP here, also rotation C, got everything else, but just no luck on that front. Makes me wanna pull my hair out. I don't know whether it's really some kind of evil money making scheme or whatever, I find the discussions about it even more boring than the grind, but dear god, so many keys and all I keep getting is stinking Forma BPs. Got over 50 formas and still keep getting them. Sigh...

Edited July 1, 2016 by Berserkerkitten