Ancient Disruptors: Their Problems And How To Fix Them

[Trylobyte]

So.  Everyone loves to hate ancient disruptors; I rarely hear any one mob more complained about than these giant pus-filled bags of fun.   A friend and I were doing a lot of thought on these guys and we came up with a slew of reasons why these guys in their current incarnation just don't work.  And their shield drain/energy removal is, surprisingly, not the biggest concern.

 

So, here's a list:

 

1)  The Infested have more lockdown and control than any other faction.  Ancients and Leapers can knock you down, Chargers and Runners can stagger you, and Nauseous Crawlers can stun you.  There is literally NO infested unit that can't CC you somehow.  This makes the strategy of avoiding the Disruptor's dangerous attacks a lot more difficult because half the time you see it you won't be able to move due to the staggers and knockdowns, one of which is conveniently provided by the Ancient Disruptor himself.  Oh, he can also charge, making up for his generally slow and ponderous speed.

 

2)  They're hard to kill.  They have a lot of hitpoints, a lot of armor, and further, they look almost identical to Runners and even use the same animations when charging, which makes them very hard to pick out of a crowd (and Infested are never lacking for crowds) at a quick glance.  This means you can't effectively focus your fire on them like you can Toxic Ancients (who are green) or Ancient Healers (who are white and have a giant green aura around them) and even if you do you might not kill them before you get knocked down and drained.

 

3)  They don't fit thematically.  Infested are all about biological warfare - Mutated creatures, exploding zombies, poisons, toxins, healing.  Ancient Disruptors don't work with that concept, since they're all about disrupting electricity and technology.  That's more of a Corpus thing, honestly.

 

4)  They're everywhere.  For a faction 'heavy' unit, you can see three or four of these guys at a time and that's pretty insane - I rarely run into more than two fusion moa, Corpus Techs, or any of the Grineer heavies at a time, but I run into half a dozen ancients on a fairly regular basis.

 

 

So here's my proposal.

 

Remove Ancient Disruptors from the game, but repurpose their abilities to a new mob.  Let's call him the Corpus Researcher.  The Corpus Researcher, like the Disruptor, is limited to melee attacks, but lacks the Disruptor's knockdown charge.  What he does maintain, though, is the Disruptor's shield and energy drain, which has a short range - He throws a device at your Warframe and, if it hits, it latches on and drains you.  But it does more than that.  It transfers your shields and energy to the Corpus Researcher, giving him a big shield and a stock of energy he can use for various abilities of his own, such as Radial Blind or Bullet Attractor.  You remove the problem of the draining attack nearly always hitting because Corpus don't have anywhere near the crowd control of Infested.  You maintain the 'hard to kill' aspect with health and shields but by putting them in a faction with more visual distinction you make them easier to focus fire on as well.  You also give Corpus a dangerous new enemy (which they're rather short on really) and keep the energy/shield drain mechanic in the game while making it less frustrating for players to deal with by giving ways to counter it.

 

What do you all think?

[inorite3]

4)  They're everywhere.  For a faction 'heavy' unit, you can see three or four of these guys at a time and that's pretty insane - I rarely run into more than two fusion moa, Corpus Techs, or any of the Grineer heavies at a time, but I run into half a dozen ancients on a fairly regular basis.

I literally saw like six in one hallway about an hour ago.

[Larspeter]

Nope. Ancients are challenging as theyr supposed to be. I never had any problems with them and they die quickly if you shoot their legs. Also if they charge, just kick em in the face. 

[metroidman12311]

4)  They're everywhere.  For a faction 'heavy' unit, you can see three or four of these guys at a time and that's pretty insane - I rarely run into more than two fusion moa, Corpus Techs, or any of the Grineer heavies at a time, but I run into half a dozen ancients on a fairly regular basis.

 I was playing earlier with a friend and we ran into 5 corpus techs at once. it wasn't fun but it does show that at the higher levels you can run into a lot of heavy units at once. in fact I'd rather take 5 disrupters than 5 techs.

[liavalenth]

The only problem with Ancients is they do not give enough XP (much less than any other factions Heavy unit anyway.) and they are silent. Big, lumbering, silent, ninjas.

[Trylobyte]

Nope. Ancients are challenging as theyr supposed to be. I never had any problems with them and they die quickly if you shoot their legs. Also if they charge, just kick em in the face. 

The big problem I have with 'shoot their legs' is the fact that it's Infested.  Their legs are probably blocked by corpses or other mobs, since the Infested trash mob is very close to the ground and Disruptors are of biggest concern when you're already being swarmed (so you probably won't have a shot at their legs anyway).  This also isn't as applicable when there's three of them or when, like I said, you're stagger-locked or knocked down (which is fairly common if you're not in a four-man group all the time).

 

 

 I was playing earlier with a friend and we ran into 5 corpus techs at once. it wasn't fun but it does show that at the higher levels you can run into a lot of heavy units at once. in fact I'd rather take 5 disrupters than 5 techs.

Ouch.  Never seen that many before.  Wonder if that means Ancients are even more common at higher levels...

[Pokolon]

Yeah 7 ancients in a defense mission with only two players does suck..

[Zamte]

I don't mind them existing. It's the fact that they can drain my volt's entire reserve of 850 shields, or every single bit of energy from my frame that's too much.

 

Removing shields or energy is fine. Taking all of it in a single, disabling, disorienting attack is just too much. They hit you, knock you back/down, screw up your entire screen, take all of your shields, and all of your energy. If your frame relies on a large shield pool or energy for defensive abilities to keep you alive, you're entirely 100% screwed if you take a single hit from a disruptor.

 

Playing as my Loki or Volt frames, one mistake where I take a hit from a disruptor's drain ability can turn a perfectly fine run where I am at no risk into a death within seconds. No shields on volt or no energy for invis or decoy on loki spells my doom. They're far, far too binary.

[MrCranky_BR]

The game is fairly easy as it is. There's a lil bit of challenge only in the highest levels. And as you power up your Mods, even those higher levels are a breeze. 

 

There's got to be SOME challenge in the game, don't you think?

 

Disruptors are big and red, and they take forever to reach charge distance. The challenge is, if you don't pay attention, you lose all your energy.

 

I don't know about you, but I spot them a mile away... My hatred for them keeps me alert when fighting Infested, and I always single them and Toxicants out as primary targets.

 

If anything, what we need is bigger, badder elite units added to the factions. Worthy challenges outside Bosses. Something like Mass Effect 3's Praetorians, Banshees and Primes... enemies that HIT hard, not only enemies with a lot of HP. We need those enemy units that, when you spot them, you go "Fuuuuuuu...." XD

[Zamte]

The game is fairly easy as it is. There's a lil bit of challenge only in the highest levels. And as you power up your Mods, even those higher levels are a breeze. 

 

There's got to be SOME challenge in the game, don't you think?

 

Disruptors are big and red, and they take forever to reach charge distance. The challenge is, if you don't pay attention, you lose all your energy.

 

I don't know about you, but I spot them a mile away... My hatred for them keeps me alert when fighting Infested, and I always single them and Toxicants out as primary targets.

 

If anything, what we need is bigger, badder elite units added to the factions. Worthy challenges outside Bosses. Something like Mass Effect 3's Praetorians, Banshees and Primes... enemies that HIT hard, not only enemies with a lot of HP. We need those enemy units that, when you spot them, you go "Fuuuuuuu...." XD

 

The issue though is that stuff like this isn't really "difficult". It's like when they create AI in games that has a difficulty setting, and at the highest ones they just flat out cheat. That's not a difficult AI, that's a cheating AI.

 

Disruptors literally make things more difficult, but not in a fun or interesting way. They're not super hard to kill if you're able to keep away from them and not get ambushed, but destroy your life when they do happen to sneak up on you.

 

Interesting enemies who have unique attacks, synergize with their faction's other mobs, take advantage of your weapon or skill setups, and stuff like that would add fun and learning challenge to the game. Disruptors are just obnoxious at low levels and instant destruction at high levels, if they do manage to hit you.

[BadAimbot]

The issue though is that stuff like this isn't really "difficult". It's like when they create AI in games that has a difficulty setting, and at the highest ones they just flat out cheat. That's not a difficult AI, that's a cheating AI.

 

Disruptors literally make things more difficult, but not in a fun or interesting way. They're not super hard to kill if you're able to keep away from them and not get ambushed, but destroy your life when they do happen to sneak up on you.

 

Interesting enemies who have unique attacks, synergize with their faction's other mobs, take advantage of your weapon or skill setups, and stuff like that would add fun and learning challenge to the game. Disruptors are just obnoxious at low levels and instant destruction at high levels, if they do manage to hit you.

 

Especially considering that they're countered exactly the same way as other Ancients, who you will avoid just as much due to them also knocking you down on hit. Yet, they do other things, too.

[WhisperByte]

You also forgot that they hit you through stealth. When you move out of their way while stealthed. When you move behind them when stealthed

[Enot83]

I have never had or seen people I play with have this much trouble as is described by others.  Ancients only problems are:

A. Still is the old model

B. Don't get enough exp

 

Other than that, pretty much everything about infested works great, they overwhelm you if you play poorly.  It's a different approach than that of the Corpus or Grineer.  Most people simply have a hard time because they don't know how to react or play against infested so they do not fall prey to much of what is described.

 

I would be ok with the corpus getting a new and dangerous unit, considering they have a similar component already for shield drain, this would just be a more robust version.

 

Asking for the ancient disruptor to be removed however, is just watering down the game difficulty for no reason.  Play better, avoid being hit by them and you'll do alright.

[fishworshipper]

I have never had or seen people I play with have this much trouble as is described by others.  Ancients only problems are:

A. Still is the old model

B. Don't get enough exp

 

Other than that, pretty much everything about infested works great, they overwhelm you if you play poorly.  It's a different approach than that of the Corpus or Grineer.  Most people simply have a hard time because they don't know how to react or play against infested so they do not fall prey to much of what is described.

 

I would be ok with the corpus getting a new and dangerous unit, considering they have a similar component already for shield drain, this would just be a more robust version.

 

Asking for the ancient disruptor to be removed however, is just watering down the game difficulty for no reason.  Play better, avoid being hit by them and you'll do alright.

How do you avoid hitscan when you're getting the S#&$ CC'd out of you by 14 other enemies?

[Enot83]

How do you avoid hitscan when you're getting the S#&$ CC'd out of you by 14 other enemies?

Why are you letting yourself get CC'd by 14 other enemies in the first place.  At that point, that is why you're being hit, not because of how the mob hits you.

 

Sounds like 14 enemies is the problem, not the 1 other enemy.  You're also going down the road of an argument that is going to clearly end in the recognition that someone is playing terrible and will be told to get better at the game and stop asking for changes because they lack the skill or understanding of game mechanics to avoid situations.

[Zero.No.Hikari]

It's been said before Ancients make the game fun and disruptors make runs like Xini interesting,  I for see them fitting the Infested more than anything, its a Infested that's learned to not only attack hard but attack where it'll hurt the most: the E. System of a frame.  I feel that without them infested runs would be as mindless as other zombie games since where else do you actually worry about your powers being zapped by one hit of a elite mob?  Sure CC is annoying but it's not their fault if you play it smart and react to the situation you'll be fine.  Embers get lucky with OverHeat that temporarily stops the Disruption effect while other frames like Excal have blind that has a 12 sec stun, 12 seconds can save a life you know.  Ash has smoke Screen which I use as my "Oh S#&$!!" button when in danger, if anything I want to get hit and see how well my gaming skills are when I'm in danger without and Energy or shields to back me up.   Not a Leeroy Jenkins type of thing but a Goku-esque give me a challenge thing.

[Mhak]

Frankly I enjoy the challenge of disruptors and dont want to see them nerfed. The idea is you see disruptors and have to plan out a whole strategy for avoiding the mobs around them, and taking them down without losing all your energy. The cost of a poorly-executed plan is severe. This makes it challenging.

 

I enjoy the challenge, and to be honest, it's really not even that much of a challenge. Corrupted MOAs and the insanely high-HP drones they launch swarming you while solo in the void, now that's a challenge, and I don't even want to see that nerfed. All in all I'd like to see the difficulty of this game increased, not decreased.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Mhak

[HomeyCDawg]

I always thought the disruptor should be split into two enemies; one that drains your shield, and one that drains your energy.

[IcarusNine]

I think it'd be fun if they extended the ancient's abilities to the other races.

 

 

E.g.

Heavy gunners and Bombards remove your shields and energy with their radial blast.

Scorpions' grapples cannot miss, and remove your shields and energy.

Rollers knock you down and deplete your shields/energy in a radius when they explode.

Shockwave moas resist all damage types but armor piercing and are immune to electrical damage.  Their shockwaves radiate instantly, can only be dodged by rolling, and remove your shields and energy.

 

I think this would be good, challenging enemy design.

[Excitonex]

I think it'd be fun if they extended the ancient's abilities to the other races.

 

 

E.g.

Heavy gunners and Bombards remove your shields and energy with their radial blast.

Scorpions' grapples cannot miss, and remove your shields and energy.

Rollers knock you down and deplete your shields/energy in a radius when they explode.

Shockwave moas resist all damage types but armor piercing and are immune to electrical damage.  Their shockwaves radiate instantly, can only be dodged by rolling, and remove your shields and energy.

 

I think this would be good, challenging enemy design.

While we're at it, let's make every enemy a Jackal.

[IcarusNine]

While we're at it, let's make every enemy a Jackal.

 

I don't think the Jackal is challenging enough.  It needs to deploy four volleys of sticky grenades every time it slams the ground, and it needs to do this at all health levels.  Also, its shockwaves would remove your energy and shields.

 

Also, instead of mine ospreys (even though they would knock you down and remove your energy/shields, obviously), the Jackal fight should continuously spawn nervos.

 

 

That's all aside from the point that Ancient Disruptors are good, challenging enemy design, though.

Edited June 19, 2013 by IcarusNine

[gell]

This thread pops up time and again, and the responses are usually split between people who want some change to their energy sapping ability, and people who specifically state that the game is already easy, so they're fine with the disruptors being a small challenge.

 

I am all for challenging enemies; I want more. But I don't like that diruptors take all your energy. Eventually those threads I mentioned talk about how the penalty could be changed, or other reworks in general. One such idea is to make the disruptor take less of your energy, maybe only 100. That's still a big hit. Others say they shouldn't hit you and remove energy, instead make them like toxic ancients, where you get near and get your energy sucked out of you. That could also be interesting.

 

Part of why DE may not have changed it, beyond not wanting to, is that Steve has said a few times that energy is being looked at and will be reworked. It's currently not fun to search containers for energy, or depend on random enemy drops (sometimes you get 8 balls out of 10, sometimes you get 0). Even the PS4 demos running at E3 had 4 energy siphons to give the players constant energy flow. Distruptors taking all our energy may not be a huge issue in the future, if energy will be potentially easier to obtain. So it may be a non-issue later on.

[Madotsuki]

Considering that Warframe abilities are pretty much the only thing making the game unique from other third person shooters right now (we used to also have speed as a feature, but that's being taken away step by step), having an enemy whose sole purpose is to take away your ability to use abilities in a single hit is utterly stupid.

Disruptors simply have too many abilities at once. They're not easily identifiable at a distance, their arm stretch can hit at any angle (even through their own bodies to hit behind themselves), they can charge at great speed, they are silent, they have large health pools and armor, they can knock you down on hit (which, by the way, also guarantees an unavoidable second hit while you're getting up), they can screw up your screen on hit, they can drain ALL of your shields in one hit (an ability that most BOSSES aren't capable of), and they can drain ALL of your energy in one hit (an ability shared by no other enemy). Oh and they can commonly appear in groups of 2, 3 or more.

First off, their knockdown ability must be removed. A stagger is more than enough. Second, their energy drain must be nerfed down to a percentage of the victim's max power, like maybe 25% per hit, and can slowly increase with the Disruptor's level. Same goes for shields, because some frames heavily rely on shields due to low health (the fact that chargers on their own can deal rediculous damage per hit already doesn't help). Third, and this applies to all Ancients, their arm stretch needs to be restricted to about 180 degrees in front of them, so that running behind them is a viable tactic. Right now the only safe way to dodge is to simply outrun their range, which is pretty boring. Fourth, they need to be more recognizable at a distance, give them a unique particle effect around them, like how the Toxic Ancient has that green cloud and the Healer emits green pulses. Ancients in general also need unique sounds.

I like your Researcher idea too though.

[Mak_Gohae]

So.  Everyone loves to hate ancient disruptors; I rarely hear any one mob more complained about than these giant pus-filled bags of fun.   A friend and I were doing a lot of thought on these guys and we came up with a slew of reasons why these guys in their current incarnation just don't work.  And their shield drain/energy removal is, surprisingly, not the biggest concern.

 

So, here's a list:

 

1)  The Infested have more lockdown and control than any other faction.  Ancients and Leapers can knock you down, Chargers and Runners can stagger you, and Nauseous Crawlers can stun you.  There is literally NO infested unit that can't CC you somehow.  This makes the strategy of avoiding the Disruptor's dangerous attacks a lot more difficult because half the time you see it you won't be able to move due to the staggers and knockdowns, one of which is conveniently provided by the Ancient Disruptor himself.  Oh, he can also charge, making up for his generally slow and ponderous speed.

 

2)  They're hard to kill.  They have a lot of hitpoints, a lot of armor, and further, they look almost identical to Runners and even use the same animations when charging, which makes them very hard to pick out of a crowd (and Infested are never lacking for crowds) at a quick glance.  This means you can't effectively focus your fire on them like you can Toxic Ancients (who are green) or Ancient Healers (who are white and have a giant green aura around them) and even if you do you might not kill them before you get knocked down and drained.

 

3)  They don't fit thematically.  Infested are all about biological warfare - Mutated creatures, exploding zombies, poisons, toxins, healing.  Ancient Disruptors don't work with that concept, since they're all about disrupting electricity and technology.  That's more of a Corpus thing, honestly.

 

4)  They're everywhere.  For a faction 'heavy' unit, you can see three or four of these guys at a time and that's pretty insane - I rarely run into more than two fusion moa, Corpus Techs, or any of the Grineer heavies at a time, but I run into half a dozen ancients on a fairly regular basis.

 

 

 

 

1- that's the beauty of the infested, figuring out ways to avoid their stuff.

 

2- They are taller than the runners, there is size difference and the runners are orange while the Disruptors are red and grey. If you have problems with these differences there is something wrong with your monitor.

 

3- Infested are Orokin tech and Warframes are also Orokin tech, the Infested being able to disrupt Orokin tech makes perfect sense.

 

4- Infested get more heavies becasue you can easily dispatch their standard units before they even get to do any damage.

 

 

BTW, the Ancients are getting a new look as shown in one of the streams. They looks like some sort of bipedal snail-thing

Edited June 19, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[CaveCricket48]

 

BTW, the Ancients are getting a new look as shown in one of the streams. They looks like some sort of bipedal snail-thing

 

Is there a picture floating around? If not, which stream?

 

 

Anyways, I like that disruptors are challenging, but I could agree on less energy taken on hit. 100-200 energy loss.

 

Or perhaps a percentage of your maximum energy, so if they would take away 25% on hit, 100/100 would be reduced to 75/100, 100/200 reduced to 50/200, etc.