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[PikeOrShield]

3 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

Except for: Ash, Excalibur, Valkyr, Trinity.

Yeeaaaahhh...  The damage outputs of Excal and Valkyr take nose dives at level 250 unless you use finishers all the time.  Trinity only has high damage resistance going for her and very little in terms of damage.  Ash is okay-ish so long as you have a x3+ melee multiplier going.

This doesn't mean they're bad by any stretch, it's just not a walk in the park for them.

[Birdframe_Prime]

35 minutes ago, PikeOrShield said:

This doesn't mean they're bad by any stretch, it's just not a walk in the park for them.

Correct, at that level it's entirely about not getting hit. The damage from any source is enough to one-shot a player, so it makes improving survival abilities like Molt far more important with the current game. Long blinds, damage reduction, CC, all of it is more important than ever at those stages.

Until Scaling 2.0/Damage 3.0 (whatever they call it) comes out, little tweaks like damage absorb phases and damage multipliers that work off enemy damage are essential game enhancers.

Even after it comes out, having these abilities tweaked will result in DE being able to simply adjust numbers to create a better balance rather than having to make further mechanics changes.

[IfritKajiTora]

Tested Saryn on similacrum in different ways vs 130 level enemeis with armor and without armor.
Overextended build with hikou prime and ignis, destroying all enemies that dont have armro in huge range, but enemies with armor doesn't lose mutch health, this build vs armored units have no chance.
Tested my Quick thinking build with synoid simulor doing great job destroying enemies group by group is seconds vs armored and not armored.
And tested her only melee, the worst build, Melee weapons don't deal too much damage, you can see it vs armored units, just horyfying, can't fight with them, molt is destroyed in 1-2 seconds or immediately so augment is hurting a lot, tried to put it behind wall but almos always one enemy get to molt and destroys it preety fast, 3rd ability doesn't do much work in her. Miasma is good only for 3 second stun but it's too small amount of time to do anything, except run.

I don't realy know what is with people that love to use overexended build, it's not that good at higher levels, up to 80 level is ok, but higher not. People are forgetting that the most of the damage are doing weapons, for example Synoid Simulor for her is the best, it stuns enemies and deal massive damage, with spores you deal to enemies like double damage and use safer build Primed Flow,Quick thinking and Steel Feeber, (steel feeber making her half harder to kill) tested on butchers, they kill her with 6 hits without steel feeber and 9 hits with steel feeber.

Thats why better is to give invulnerability time to MOLT to avoid instant destruction of molt.
3rd ability change for all weapons.
Miasma could get little longer stun and armor ignore.

Edited July 6, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[IfritKajiTora]

On 5.07.2016 at 10:09 PM, Thaylien said:

Hmm... I'm not sure, I think you may have the mechanics of Miasma's damage, and the effect on Spores a little off.

Yep, tested her on simulacrum before reading your message. Spores with toxin gas and Hikou Prime deals enough good damage, making Miasma add corrosive to spores and spreading even further could end with too high damage. But it only works on weak armored enemies, on higher armored enemies it deals too small amount of damage to kill them. Miasma should just Ignore armor, that should make Miasma good enough on higher levels.

[Birdframe_Prime]

31 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said:

Yep, tested her on simulacrum before reading your message. Spores with toxin gas and Hikou Prime deals enough good damage, making Miasma add corrosive to spores and spreading even further could end with too high damage. But it only works on weak armored enemies, on higher armored enemies it deals too small amount of damage to kill them. Miasma should just Ignore armor, that should make Miasma good enough on higher levels.

Armour ignore is a very tense subject at the moment, they're re-working Ash because of how much of his damage is Finisher damage (direct health damage), I don't think anything is going to be doing that for a while. But you can see why people want Corrosive procs on Miasma, right? Because it procs half armour in the same way that viral halves health.

You see that's the problem with enemy scaling right now; the armour is what kills us and what makes Corrosive Projection so vital to long run team survival missions, taking off all that armour is what saves us.

So something that flatly halves the armour value would actually last quite a while into end-game, especially with Viral and Toxin procs at the same time.

[IfritKajiTora]

10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Armour ignore is a very tense subject at the moment, they're re-working Ash because of how much of his damage is Finisher damage (direct health damage), I don't think anything is going to be doing that for a while. But you can see why people want Corrosive procs on Miasma, right? Because it procs half armour in the same way that viral halves health.

You see that's the problem with enemy scaling right now; the armour is what kills us and what makes Corrosive Projection so vital to long run team survival missions, taking off all that armour is what saves us.

So something that flatly halves the armour value would actually last quite a while into end-game, especially with Viral and Toxin procs at the same time.

You can test my build in simulacrum and maybe say something about it: http://goo.gl/9xh7D2
Use Synoid simulor builded for Gas damage.
Test it on non armored units and on armored units.

Second link in case:

 

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Saryn_Prime/t_30_0302040040_2-0-10-4-2-5-6-3-5-19-4-10-34-8-5-57-5-5-59-6-3-471-7-3-481-1-10-615-9-5_2-12-481-7-4-9-6-6-19-14-57-8-59-9-471-9-34-5-615-9_0/en/1-0-44

And then test Overextended build.

Edited July 7, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[ENIAK_Prime]

You make it sound like Toxic Lash is bad just because it's only for melee. Toxic Lash is almost RIDICULOUSLY good when combined with spores. Being guaranteed a spore pop with every melee hit is fantastic if you build up Saryn for range, which gives her spores INSANE spreading potential. I've had times where I practically covered the entire map with spores on ONE CAST just by going in there and GETTING DOWN WITH THE SICKNESS, hacking and slashing away at spored enemies to keep it going forever!

Oh, and keep in mind, you siphon back energy with every spore you pop while using toxic lash. So... yeah.

[IfritKajiTora]

17 minutes ago, Soldatto said:

You make it sound like Toxic Lash is bad just because it's only for melee. Toxic Lash is almost RIDICULOUSLY good when combined with spores. Being guaranteed a spore pop with every melee hit is fantastic if you build up Saryn for range, which gives her spores INSANE spreading potential. I've had times where I practically covered the entire map with spores on ONE CAST just by going in there and GETTING DOWN WITH THE SICKNESS, hacking and slashing away at spored enemies to keep it going forever!

Oh, and keep in mind, you siphon back energy with every spore you pop while using toxic lash. So... yeah.

But it's only lock to melee. I prefer to use Molt instead of Toxic Lash, it's almost the same, because Molt and Toxic lash have toxic damage type. With good weapon you don't need to aim, spored will automatically spread to other enemies.
Toxic lash in my opinion is only good when you want to go melee, because of damage reduction, but melee weapons are not that good, and when you want to stand in one place spreading spores: Molt, spores on molt, toxic lash and jump attack.

Edited July 7, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

4 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

 

I'd just like to point out that, in the simulacrum, overextended may not be necessary. And of course you'll be doing more damage with more strength, that's a given. The reason  you use overextended is for everything that ISN'T in the sim. It gives you more targets with spores, more opportunities for toxin stacking, and overall more damage (because of a large increase in the number of enemies being hit at any given time). The best build I've found so far is 224% strength, 250% range, and 128% duration.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said:

But it's only lock to melee. I prefer to use Molt instead of Toxic Lash, it's almost the same, because Molt and Toxic lash have toxic damage type. With good weapon you don't need to aim, spored will automatically spread to other enemies.
Toxic lash in my opinion is only good when you want to go melee, because of damage reduction, but melee weapons are not that good, and when you want to stand in one place spreading spores: Molt, spores on molt, toxic lash and jump attack.

I'll try your builds out when I have some free time, but I want to get a comment in on this point too.

If modded right, and played correctly, melee can outstrip primary weapons for damage.

There is an unfortunate combo at the moment of Blood Rush and Body Count. If you gear yourself up to go melee, with a high crit weapon like the Nikana Prime or the Prisma Dual Cleavers, you can build a combo in less than three minutes that has you dealing guaranteed crits with every hit. 

Combined with the additional damage that Toxic Lash adds on, you can have a melee combo counter that just keeps scaling your damage up and up. Way past the point of Primary weapon damage.

Even a Mirage with a Synoid Simulor can't keep up with the kind of DPS a crit-melee build can end up dealing out, especially if you're using a frame that can half health on her enemies and farm back energy with every hit of that melee.

Going Melee with Saryn may not seem like a very possible thing, given that she's pretty squishy when you're modding for her abilities, not survival, but it can deal some of the most devastating damage in game.

4 minutes ago, (PS4)maelstromm15 said:

I'd just like to point out that, in the simulacrum, overextended may not be necessary. And of course you'll be doing more damage with more strength, that's a given. The reason  you use overextended is for everything that ISN'T in the sim. It gives you more targets with spores, more opportunities for toxin stacking, and overall more damage (because of a large increase in the number of enemies being hit at any given time). The best build I've found so far is 224% strength, 250% range, and 128% duration.

Interesting, for my part I sacrifice that range to get more duration and strength. Overextended takes away too much damage when I'm doing regular survival runs, especially when enemies are all coming to me anyway, and the duration adds to the stuns and to Molt early game to get the combo running.

[IfritKajiTora]

6 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Interesting, for my part I sacrifice that range to get more duration and strength. Overextended takes away too much damage when I'm doing regular survival runs, especially when enemies are all coming to me anyway, and the duration adds to the stuns and to Molt early game to get the combo running.

I think that his build doesn't have Vitality mod, that how he was able to make those stats.

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Interesting, for my part I sacrifice that range to get more duration and strength. Overextended takes away too much damage when I'm doing regular survival runs, especially when enemies are all coming to me anyway, and the duration adds to the stuns and to Molt early game to get the combo running.

Actually miasma stun is the same duration regardless of how long the ability lasts, unless they've changed it in the couple months I haven't played. That was one of the big gripes about her rewerk. My build is focused on spores, with miasma as supplementary damage. Using a decent loadout, it takes 40-60 minutes in a t4 before things stop dying instantly to spores in up to a 110 meter radius (if using the ignis), more if using a projectile weapon.

Melee is a wonderful way to play her if using naramon, but I tend to use zenurik and focus on gun play myself, just personal preference with her.

As for the damage spores can do with overextended, I'm still able to kill enemies level 500+

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

1 minute ago, IfritKajiTora said:

I think that his build doesn't have Vitality mod, that how he was able to make those stats.

That's correct. The only survivability mod I use is quick thinking, it equates to about 2000 health I believe with my 850 energy pool. In team play, however, I tend to take even that off and run Venom Dose for the added team damage.

[Birdframe_Prime]

43 minutes ago, (PS4)maelstromm15 said:

That's correct. The only survivability mod I use is quick thinking, it equates to about 2000 health I believe with my 850 energy pool. In team play, however, I tend to take even that off and run Venom Dose for the added team damage.

Good on you for going health-less on team play, it really frees up the modding to get more from your frame and your team can always pick you up if you happen to go down, or a good team will anyway.

On the other hand... I cannot fathom the counter-productive nature of Quick Thinking, and why everybody seems to use it. The only time it works, literally the only time it works, is with that maxed out Zenurik energy regen constantly bringing back your energy at 4 per second. You use that, so you may have the bias towards that direction, but before Zenurik? Or when you're on a lower level of it?

We tested QT when it came out and it just... doesn't actually help. At the point where Quick Thinking is useful, where enemies can punch through a shield and a Vitality mod, it's then a liability to have your energy drained so readily.

After the first week it was brought out, that first week of testing at multiple levels of play, every player I ran with to test it out agreed on one thing: At high level, we'd rather have the energy for killing things than for staying upright. You can always be picked up by a good team if you get one-shot, but you can't keep up the DPS if you have no energy from multiple stray shots and, at that higher level, you're going to get one-shot with or without a Quick Thinking.

Yes it gives you 2000 extra health, but when a sniper or nullifier can hit for 3000... you're going down regardless and even if you're not, you're left with a pittance for energy reserves. Energy is what kills things more at that level, it enables your guns to do the most damage, it controls enemies so you don't get one-shot... I'd rather that energy be used for casting than health.

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

11 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

-snip-.

I suppose it really depends on the playstyle of the person using it. I tend to be very mobile, often taking as much advantage as I can of the damage reduction from rolling, which also happens to counteract the stagger. I do run a maxed zenurik, as well as occasionally using toxic lash to restore energy (which is where QT becomes godlike, using a melee Saryn build with naramon.) but like I said earlier, I don't use it in team play, I use it only when soloing, and my playstyle becomes very different when playing solo. I rarely cast, focusing mainly on keeping a single spore cast up as long as possible, and do my best simply to survive long enough for my spores to do their job. For my particular playstyle, quick thinking does me much more good than a vitality or redirection.

[alergiclaprosti]

On 7/6/2016 at 1:24 PM, PikeOrShield said:

Yeeaaaahhh...  The damage outputs of Excal and Valkyr take nose dives at level 250 unless you use finishers all the time.  Trinity only has high damage resistance going for her and very little in terms of damage.  Ash is okay-ish so long as you have a x3+ melee multiplier going.

This doesn't mean they're bad by any stretch, it's just not a walk in the park for them.

Yes ... finishers .... those kill. Ash can also take down the armor.

Trinity takes down all the armor (so .... finisher damage).

Maybe not a walk in the park .... but they can still kill .... Saryn, Oberon, Hydorid, Zephyr and a lot more can't even scratch those enemies.

Edited July 11, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[PikeOrShield]

6 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

Yes ... finishers .... those kill. Ash can also take down the armor.

Trinity takes down all the armor (so .... finisher damage).

Maybe not a walk in the park .... but they can still kill .... Saryn, Oberon, Hydorid, Zephyr and a lot more can't even scratch those enemies.

I find that Saryn puts out good damage until about level 300.  Since I really don't feel like spending a couple hours in a void survival, here's a screenshot of her wrecking level 200~ enemies with some ridiculous damage output.

I can't say much for Oberon, Hydroid, and Zephr.  They're on their own this round.

[alergiclaprosti]

7 hours ago, PikeOrShield said:

I find that Saryn puts out good damage until about level 300.  Since I really don't feel like spending a couple hours in a void survival, here's a screenshot of her wrecking level 200~ enemies with some ridiculous damage output.

 

I can't say much for Oberon, Hydroid, and Zephr.  They're on their own this round.

Naramon .... try it without that. That screenshot shows only that Naramon is OP (or the other ones are UP).

Edited July 12, 2016 by alergiclaprosti

[Ivan_Rid]

10 hours ago, PikeOrShield said:

I find that Saryn puts out good damage until about level 300.  Since I really don't feel like spending a couple hours in a void survival, here's a screenshot of her wrecking level 200~ enemies with some ridiculous damage output.

I can't say much for Oberon, Hydroid, and Zephr.  They're on their own this round.

Oh, I`ve seen that image before. Pretty funny how in actual up to date game the spore radial damage is not displayed, and spore ticks can never achieve those numbers (only toxin ticks can). Unless you specifically stack them for one big burst with Gas+Lash, and they ignore armour for some reason, instead of being hit by armour twice, like now.

[PikeOrShield]

2 hours ago, alergiclaprosti said:

Naramon .... try it without that. That screenshot shows only that Naramon is OP (or the other ones are UP).

Cry me a river.  That sort of damage output is something you will never see on Trinity, Loki, Ash, Excal, or Valkyr.  Why don't you complain about Ivara with Covert Lethality scalling indefinitely while you're at it?

[(PSN)maelstromm15]

4 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Oh, I`ve seen that image before. Pretty funny how in actual up to date game the spore radial damage is not displayed, and spore ticks can never achieve those numbers (only toxin ticks can). Unless you specifically stack them for one big burst with Gas+Lash, and they ignore armour for some reason, instead of being hit by armour twice, like now.

I've hit 218k with a spore radial blast, unbuffed, with the Lanka. Not to mention, I'm not sure you understand how spores work. The spore ticks themselves never scale (the base 25x3 damage). What scales is the toxin proc caused by the radial spore explosion, the damage of the proc being 50% of the explosion damage per tick. But make no mistake,  the spores stack TOXIN damage.

[Ivan_Rid]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)maelstromm15 said:

I've hit 218k with a spore radial blast, unbuffed, with the Lanka. Not to mention, I'm not sure you understand how spores work. The spore ticks themselves never scale (the base 25x3 damage). What scales is the toxin proc caused by the radial spore explosion, the damage of the proc being 50% of the explosion damage per tick. But make no mistake,  the spores stack TOXIN damage.

I do understand how Spore works, all I`m trying to say is that screenshot is equivalent to a screenshot of pre-rework Mag blowing up a Corpus sortie tile, or a screenshot of how well Magnetize DoT and radial blast scaled with beam weapons pre SoTR.

See the leftmost Butcher/Lancer? Killed by 331061 damage with a Viral proc. Its a Spore radial damage. It is not displayed in game right now.

Only way to get that number with Dual KamasP is stacking a lot of Toxin procs, using Lash and Gas, on target, Spore it, and then pop the Spore. Problem is - you cant run Corrosive and Gas on the same weapon. So your initial Gas/Toxin procs are cut by armour, and then Spore radial damage is affected by armour too, and since Toxin DoT spread by radial Spore blast is calculated from effective damage of initial Gas/Toxin procs you end up with pitiful damage against anything significantly armoured.

Against Infested Spore damage is being hit hard by both Distruptor and Toxic Ancients auras (and they spawn a lot the further you go). Healers are actually good, they accumulate all toxin procs from AoE weapons on themselves, acting as delicious Toxin cauldron timebomb.

Against Corpus I notice Shield Ospreys messing up my Spore, once 2 or 3 are stacked they provide significant elemental damage resistance or something like that. I have no idea what mechanic is at work here, but I get Toxin DoTs ticking for 0 on unarmoured shielded enemies, who are weak to Toxin damage type.

[PikeOrShield]

6 hours ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Only way to get that number with Dual KamasP is stacking a lot of Toxin procs, using Lash and Gas, on target, Spore it, and then pop the Spore. Problem is - you cant run Corrosive and Gas on the same weapon. So your initial Gas/Toxin procs are cut by armour, and then Spore radial damage is affected by armour too, and since Toxin DoT spread by radial Spore blast is calculated from effective damage of initial Gas/Toxin procs you end up with pitiful damage against anything significantly armoured.

Unless there was a big change recently, this is how it should still work.  While armor does reduce spore burst damage and carried toxin damage, the damage does not get mitigated as much as you described when it spreads to another armored target.  Spore's burst and DOT damage is calculated of the initial base damage that caused the toxin proc.  Initial base damage does not factor for armor values.  

The way it's calculated is: initial base damage -> armor reduction applied -> actual damage

Because of this, damage that will be factored over to a new target does not get mitigated by the previous units armor, since the damage is calculated off of a number that does not take into account the current unit's armor.  This also applies to spores that are carried along a chain of enemies since the burst damage is calculated by the initial base damage(s) of toxin procs afflicting the target.  The reason you see spores dealing reduced damage further down the chain is because the full initial base damage is not carried over (only a small percentage is) due to how spore damage is calculated, not because armor mitigates it repeatedly.

Important parts from the wiki:

• If an infected enemy is being damaged by a  Toxin proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread  Toxin damage to surrounding enemies. The spore will have 25% of the initial base damage that triggered the  Toxin proc added to its burst damage as  Viral damage with a 100% status chance for  Viral and  Toxin effects.
•  Toxin status effect deals 50% of the burst damage as  Toxin damage per tick over 11 ticks in 10 seconds. Duration-based status effects are prolonged due to Saryn's passive.

wiki:

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