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PvE vs. PvP in Warframe


kazenioware

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PvP: is it worth the effort?

Or should they focus on the main part of this game?

I am asking this because i do not know many who play pvp in wf. And closing the gap to other MP games would be at the expense of the PvE part?

 

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As a mainly PvE player... I do think PvP is worth the effort if it is done well. I think Lunaro is done well, and thus I play it often. Regular Conclave, on the other hand, I don't think is done well at all. At first, with the initial U17 update, I loved it. As time went on, I liked it less and less. Not everyone will agree with me, but I think it's horribly unbalanced. A lot of those problems, I feel come from a mixture of trying to make PvE-oriented content work in PvP and an overabundance of content that can muck up the very fickle PvP balance. That's just me though.

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1 minute ago, clemza said:

PvP in wf is more when you have nothing else to do, or for fun.

If so, i'd rather play something else. At least for now.

 

8 minutes ago, PsychedelicSnake said:

As time went on, I liked it less and less

Right. For me it is the movement in pvp. Other games make that part more convincing, at least for me.

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9 minutes ago, PsychedelicSnake said:

As a mainly PvE player... I do think PvP is worth the effort if it is done well. I think Lunaro is done well, and thus I play it often. Regular Conclave, on the other hand, I don't think is done well at all. At first, with the initial U17 update, I loved it. As time went on, I liked it less and less. Not everyone will agree with me, but I think it's horribly unbalanced. A lot of those problems, I feel come from a mixture of trying to make PvE-oriented content work in PvP and an overabundance of content that can muck up the very fickle PvP balance. That's just me though.

I can completely agree with that. In my opinion, given the game's mobility, pvp should focus more on competetive modes like Lunaro, rather than standard deathmatches. No mods, no warframe abilities. I would like to see Lunaro expanded and a main focus of the future pvp content. Unless the standard Conclave is rebalanced, but I don't have any relevant ideas for that.

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This is not gonna be a popular opinion. Oh boy its really not gonna be.

PVP Development takes resources away from PVE. Whether its a separate team or not, its still resources devoted to something other than PVE. Which is why I think PVP development in Warframe is a bad idea.

I didnt always feel this way. Then Battleborn hit. And I thought, Well, no one is really playing this. Warframe wont lose players over this.

Then, Overwatch hit. And some 7 million or more people bought it. And where Blizzard goes, the Industry follows. Now, Cliffy B is working on a sci fi shooter. So is Epic Games. Destiny will doubtless get either new content or a larger sequel soon. Suddenly, PVP oriented sci fi shooters are...a thing.

And all of them seem to do PVP better than Warframe. Its smoother. Faster. It has actual servers. And in the case of Overwatch, a solid array of unique heroes. And a level of quality founded on a financial backing god himself cant compete with for an effects budget.

So why bother competing with it?

People flocked to Warframe because its a PVE game. Right now, that fact is the largest portion of what sets it apart from the rest of the sci fi shooter crowd. That you can also play it with your friends is an added bonus.

Every bit of PVP development you do, is development in an area other companies already doing better. AND it uses resources from your budget that COULD be allocated to your PVE development instead. 

If there were no PVP sci fi shooters - or if the most popular one around wasnt backed by the riches of several medium sized kingdoms - I would say, sure, Warframe, go ahead and have your little dabble in PVP, what can it hurt?

But now? So many better options exist. And all of them have dedicated servers to smooth out the experience. And development FOCUSED ON their PVP, instead of as an afterthought. Their quality will, I assure you, continue to outpace Warframe PVP. As evidenced by our latest mode: a lag infested, subpar copy of Rocket League, except without cool cars. 

So I say...No. Not anymore. You dont need to scrap what you have; if people play it let remain. But I dont think its wise any longer to persist along a path others are now walking in droves, while they're doing it better and smarter and faster and with dedicated focus and loads more cash to boot.

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4 minutes ago, Genitive said:

I can completely agree with that. In my opinion, given the game's mobility, pvp should focus more on competetive modes like Lunaro, rather than standard deathmatches. No mods, no warframe abilities. I would like to see Lunaro expanded and a main focus of the future pvp content. Unless the standard Conclave is rebalanced, but I don't have any relevant ideas for that.

I totally wouldn't be against Lunaro becoming the main PvP extraction. If they can find a way to make regular Conclave more balanced and enjoyable, I'd like that as well. Until then though, I prefer Lunaro by a gargantuan margin.

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Seeing how PvP works, basically it's fun at the beginning when everyone is a noob and just trying to have fun then it gets worse because people want to win. I say they should focus around PvE. Warframe has always been PvE not PvP. 

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Personally, the PvP plays way too differently than PvE. The way they try to fit PvE stuff into PvP is forced and they really should just separate the two altogether, with the PvE staying on one side while the PvP has more of a standardized set of rules and regulations but is still in the same universe and lore/style. Lunaro is a good and fun step.

Currently, there's too much stuff going on in the PvE side that makes things too ridiculous for people jumping into it to be enjoyable, like playing with people that are modded up or have good PvP but bad PvE weapons, etc. Quite a bit of the end user mechanics are too clunky such as how the mods are gotten, the dailies, hell, even the way the separate loadouts are handled feels.

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My two cents?  I don't play it, but not because it's not good.  I haven't played it, so I can't speak to it's quality or lack of same.  I think you should try Conclave yourself, and see if you like it.

For background, even early in it's development some players were calling for a PvP Warframe. In response, Steve famously said "Warframe is a co-op game; it will never be a PvP game".  But the PvP folk continued clamoring for it, and over time, his thinking on that has changed.  But keep in mind, WF has been a co-op game since it's inception, and it's PvP element is, for lack of a better term, an add-on.  It requires some weapons, Warframes, etc. to be "re-balanced" for PvP play.

Have fun!

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I was interested in Warframe back then because it was mainly PvE and you dont need to play PvP to reach better things or thats endgame content or something else. So im not interested at all in the PvP Part of this game, sure somtimes 1on1 duels (pretty rare though) and i did like 10 macthes Conclave and 3or 5 Lunaro Matches. Was ok but i returned quickly to PvE. Whats good: PvP is kind of separated from PvE. And im happy if most ressources are spend on PvE aspect. And i hope the game stays that way that its mainly PvE<3

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33 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This is not gonna be a popular opinion. Oh boy its really not gonna be.

PVP Development takes resources away from PVE. Whether its a separate team or not, its still resources devoted to something other than PVE. Which is why I think PVP development in Warframe is a bad idea.

Just because PvP uses DE's resources doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it away from the PvE development team, in the end I'm fairly certain what PvP does with their resources has no impact at all on PvE development, DE has never shown any sign of being underfunded when it comes to their standard updates on the contrary since their merging they claimed to have more funding than ever which they put towards more cinematic quests. If DE were to cut PvP right now it probably woulden't help in any way, they'd just be over staffed, if they needed new people then they would have hired them already so cutting PvP would not assist in the development of future updates at all.

That said it's hardly a waste of their resources, there's a fair enough portion of the playerbase who participates in PvP and with the introduction of Lunaro its popularity is increasing, on top of that the resource drain PvP has on the rest of the game is probably negligible and I seriously doubt they would ever tell the development team they can't do something because PvP took all their money for balancing guns.

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The issue stems from the initial design of Warframe: it was never built with PvP in mind, so when they finally added it, none of the mechanics supported it. None of the Weapons or Warframes are balanced with a consistent enough method, and there are just so many that I can guarantee right now it's not possible. You'd have to give Warframes completely different abilities, and make weapons have completely different stats, and even then it would not be enough to make Conclave fair to all players. 

PvP games out there are designed with mechanics that balance their assets when used against other players.

Overwatch and Team Fortress have classes that have unique weapons and weapon types, which makes it so that they have definitive strengths and weaknesses. Quake and Half-Life featured resource management, with power-ups and an effective ammo system which kept the strengths and weaknesses of each weapon balanced, even though certain weapons were easier to use than others. Halo limits the player to two weapons, has power-ups and vehicles to manage, and has a definitive balance formula, which is Shotgun > Pistol > Sniper > Shotgun, with every weapon being charted out to what it is designed to counter, what it can overcome with skill, and what it is weak against. 

In Warframe, any 'Class' (Warframe) can wield any weapon at any time, allowing you to cover all of your weaknesses, or even accidentally open yourself up to more vulnerabilities. The ammo system is negligible, and there are no game changing power-ups. Mobility is too free; in Team Fortress and Quake, advanced mobility often comes at a cost and has a learning curve, but Warframe has absolutely free and intuitive movement systems. There is no weapon or ability balance; Warframe weapons are not designed with a balance system in mind, as they are designed to support role-based characteristics.

So, the issue is that Warframe has too much freedom, which is just fine for a PvE game given that you can challenge the player with unfair stats by having controlled mechanics, but in PvP there has to be more restraint, and at that point it's too different from the standard game to even be a feature. You'd either have to make it so Warframes could arbitrarily only use certain weapons, or make more weapon and resource management systems, because at this point you can't create a weapon balance system like Halo, and either of those may still feature fundamental issues due to the lack of foresight for including the PvP in the first place.

You can enjoy PvP in Warframe as a Novelty, but outside of that, it is, without doubt, never going to be a wholesome experience. It is nowhere near as well designed as the main game, and I'd argue it never will, and not because of a lack of creativity or skill on its designers' parts, but just because simply they painted themselves into a corner early on.

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1 minute ago, -Amaterasu- said:

Just because PvP uses DE's resources doesn't necessarily mean they're taking it away from the PvE development team, in the end I'm fairly certain what PvP does with their resources has no impact at all on PvE development, DE has never shown any sign of being underfunded when it comes to their standard updates on the contrary since their merging they claimed to have more funding than ever which they put towards more cinematic quests. If DE were to cut PvP right now it probably woulden't help in any way, they'd just be over staffed, if they needed new people then they would have hired them already so cutting PvP would not assist in the development of future updates at all.

That said it's hardly a waste of their resources, there's a fair enough portion of the playerbase who participates in PvP and with the introduction of Lunaro its popularity is increasing, on top of that the resource drain PvP has on the rest of the game is probably negligible and I seriously doubt they would ever tell the development team they can't do something because PvP took all their money for balancing guns.

Except...any development of Warframe that is not PVE, is taking away from from PVE. Because those developers also get paid, and it comes out of a budget controlled by either DE or the company who controls them. Finite resources being finite, yes, it absolutely IS impacting PVE development, if in no other way than occupying resources that COULD be allocated to the main game.

As for a significant portion of the player base participating in PVP...perhaps they are. No one - and I literally mean no one - from my clan did so. Before they quit, which most of them have. From boredom, I will assume. And occasionally vouch.

And that boredom stemmed from a lack of new or varied experiences. PVE Experiences. Again, we were at the limit for the mid size clan, and NO ONE in the entire clan - heck, no one in our entire Alliance - was at all interested in PVP. In any way.

If the content is there, a portion of the base will utilize it. That's always going to be true. What you have to weigh is not whether anyone uses the content. Its whether ENOUGH PEOPLE use the content for you to consider it a draw. Does it bring people to your game? Would they still play the game if that content disappeared? If your answers are No and Yes, in that order...you probably dont NEED that mode.

Now you have to ask yourself: Is it worth it anyway? 

Before the sudden onset of PVP focused sci fi shooters it probably was. Now...I'm not so sure I think so, myself. I could be wrong, of course. I'm just offering my take on the matter.

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3 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

This thread is alot less "pvp vs pve" and more "pvp is bad and should not have development time wasted on it". Its more a one sided speech than an actual discussion.

Which in itself is very telling...

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Do players really think that DE has so few resources, or that the PvP development team is so large, that folding them into the PvE development teams would make a HUGE difference in development times, asset quality, and so on?  I can't agree.  Yes, adding them to the traditional PvE Dev team would prolly help them out.  But I really don't think it would make a massive, noticeable difference.

But that's just one Tenno's opinion, and opinions are like......ummm, helmets - every Warframe's got one.    |-D

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12 minutes ago, armedpoop said:

This thread is alot less "pvp vs pve" and more "pvp is bad and should not have development time wasted on it". Its more a one sided speech than an actual discussion.

it should be a discussion but sadly a majority dislike it (including me). What Black said I 100% agree with

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3 minutes ago, -Voltage- said:

it should be a discussion but sadly a majority dislike it (including me). What Black said I 100% agree with

Its a very sad truth. Pvp in this game has massive potential and is pretty fun right now, its only been getting better.

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4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except...any development of Warframe that is not PVE, is taking away from from PVE. Because those developers also get paid, and it comes out of a budget controlled by either DE or the company who controls them. Finite resources being finite, yes, it absolutely IS impacting PVE development, if in no other way than occupying resources that COULD be allocated to the main game.

As for a significant portion of the player base participating in PVP...perhaps they are. No one - and I literally mean no one - from my clan did so. Before they quit, which most of them have. From boredom, I will assume. And occasionally vouch.

And that boredom stemmed from a lack of new or varied experiences. PVE Experiences. Again, we were at the limit for the mid size clan, and NO ONE in the entire clan - heck, no one in our entire Alliance - was at all interested in PVP. In any way.

If the content is there, a portion of the base will utilize it. That's always going to be true. What you have to weigh is not whether anyone uses the content. Its whether ENOUGH PEOPLE use the content for you to consider it a draw. Does it bring people to your game? Would they still play the game if that content disappeared? If your answers are No and Yes, in that order...you probably dont NEED that mode.

Now you have to ask yourself: Is it worth it anyway? 

Before the sudden onset of PVP focused sci fi shooters it probably was. Now...I'm not so sure I think so, myself. I could be wrong, of course. I'm just offering my take on the matter.

I still wouldn't go so far as to call PvP a drain on their resources if nothing else they may even sat aside a seperate budget for PvP, resources that DE probably woulden't end up using anyway. If they were to cut PvP I seriously doubt they'd give all their developers a raise just because there's excess money, that's not how it works, when a budget is made they're probably doing it with the existance of PvP in mind so if you get rid of it that just means a smaller budget next year.

If DE wasn't getting something out of PvP then I'm sure they would have gotten rid of it (or left it as is) when conclave was still poorly balanced PvE on players, but they decided to make something out of it to appeal to a larger audience, which i think they have accomplished, and continue to accomplish with game modes like Lunaro (Back before PvP 2.0 I can't think of a time where there were ever more than 5 sessions across all the nodes at any given time) if they keep on their current track and add more interesting game modes I think PvP will have a very notable playerbase, it will never be for everyone but with the way they're going it certainly is a valid pass time to keep players interested in the game for longer perioids of time.

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