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PvE vs. PvP in Warframe


kazenioware

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7 minutes ago, -Amaterasu- said:

I still wouldn't go so far as to call PvP a drain on their resources if nothing else they may even sat aside a seperate budget for PvP, resources that DE probably woulden't end up using anyway. If they were to cut PvP I seriously doubt they'd give all their developers a raise just because there's excess money, that's not how it works, when a budget is made they're probably doing it with the existance of PvP in mind so if you get rid of it that just means a smaller budget next year.

If DE wasn't getting something out of PvP then I'm sure they would have gotten rid of it (or left it as is) when conclave was still poorly balanced PvE on players, but they decided to make something out of it to appeal to a larger audience, which i think they have accomplished, and continue to accomplish with game modes like Lunaro (Back before PvP 2.0 I can't think of a time where there were ever more than 5 sessions across all the nodes at any given time) if they keep on their current track and add more interesting game modes I think PvP will have a very notable playerbase, it will never be for everyone but with the way they're going it certainly is a valid pass time to keep players interested in the game for longer perioids of time.

Oh I dont doubt you are correct. I wouldnt call it a drain myself. Probably doesnt amount to all that much in comparison to be honest.

Its ultimately to DE to decide whether its a worthwhile investment. I would months ago immediately have said it was. But the market has changed a bit since, and its changing more still in the near future. Whole lot of sci fi themed PVP games out there now that weren't there months ago.

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13 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Except...any development of Warframe that is not PVE, is taking away from from PVE. Because those developers also get paid, and it comes out of a budget controlled by either DE or the company who controls them. Finite resources being finite, yes, it absolutely IS impacting PVE development, if in no other way than occupying resources that COULD be allocated to the main game.

Maybe they wouldn't have been granted an extra budget if they hadn't justified the creation of a PvP dev team... I mean, not knowing exactly how their budget is controlled, all we can do is just guess.

I don't like PvP myself (not in most games, usually, and certainly not in WF given the game mechanics) but I can see how a corporate overlord could find the idea enticing, given that (once finished and when properly done) PvP requires a lot less dev work to keep it going, compared to releasing new PvE content. That's probably the reason why other games like Destiny have PvP too (and because there's people that like it too, but given enough PvE content, people going to Destiny would still be on Destiny regardless of whether it had PvP or not).

I don't think it's working in WF, and as long as the game mechanics remain the way they are I don't think it ever will. It'll have some fans, but it won't become a compelling reason for the player base to stick with WF if in absence of new PvE content.

Should they kill it? Maybe they just shouldn't have started it, but now that they have a team on it, unless someone with actual inside knowledge can make a compelling argument on how it would be actually hurting the development of PvE (and as long as they are willing to keep pouring money on that) I don't see why. Therere players enjoying it and there's people making a living out of developing it.

Throwing that money at the PvE part wouldn't necessarily mean seeing improvements, at least not if the current dev team isn't severely gimped by a tight budget and lacking developers. If they have a solid team, adding more devs could actually have a negative impact.

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Honestly, Warframe PvP is one of the best PvP game modes I have ever played. Much of this is due to the mechanics which pioneered in PvE with Parkour 2.0, but the relatively high attention to balance over such a variety of playstyles is impressive, even though asymmetric balance is nearly impossible to achieve.

There's always been two major hangups to Warframe PvP personally, however. The first is the entry curve-the distance in capability between a new player and a veteran player is exacerbated by a slow mod grind that makes it hard to enter PvP.
The second, which is potentially being solved, is the lack of dedicated servers making you rather at the mercy of peer-to-peer connections. Nothing is more frustrating than realising that another player is going to get the advantage on you every time because of nothing but ping.

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8 hours ago, FierceRadiance said:

Do players really think that DE has so few resources, or that the PvP development team is so large, that folding them into the PvE development teams would make a HUGE difference in development times, asset quality, and so on?  I can't agree.  Yes, adding them to the traditional PvE Dev team would prolly help them out.  But I really don't think it would make a massive, noticeable difference.

But that's just one Tenno's opinion, and opinions are like......ummm, helmets - every Warframe's got one.    |-D

I say this as someone who isn't comfortable with @BlackCoMerc's assessment, but I'm confident that they could have a profound difference on the base game.

Look at all the PvP balance changes. Imagine if, rather than having to rebalance 70 or so weapons for PvP, they'd balanced them in PvE. If instead of rebalancing frames, they were rebalancing our enemies. If instead of creating new mods, they were testing Mods 3.0 or designing those mods with PvE balance.

Imagine if the time spent on the PvP maps meant we had an additional planetary tileset. Or expanded on tilesets like Ceres or Phobos that are now too restrictive for the new movement system.

The only thing holding me back is that I'm not confident they would've been given the freedom to pursue all of that. But they had the capacity.

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I absolutely agree that it would have a profound difference on the base game.  I just don't think it would be a good difference.  And the balance changes have been necessary because DE wanted to build a co-op shooter, and that's what they built. 

Steve went on record as saying he was opposed to PvP.  And he built this game from the ground up (and then rebuilt a major part of it from the ground up again) as a co-op shooter.  That's always been what he and his team saw Warframe to be, and that's how they've structured everything about the game.  To rebuild the game as just another FPS would probably be a major undertaking.  The maps would have to be remade, and how would they structure the hundreds (soon to be thousands) of separate mods and weapon / Warframe parts drops that have to be made available as rewards?

A great deal of work would have to go into this proposed recreation of yours--and where would the existing game be during those months?  No new content, no hope for future content (for this game), and a player base which knows the existing game is being thrown away.  I don't think many players would stick around long under those circumstances (I wouldn't).

And of course, we've all heard the same claim, and not just from PvP players 'If DE made the change I'm suggesting, even though it would cost DE in the short run, I'm SURE it bring in more than enough new players to offset the loss in the long run'.  I generally tend not to accept that claim, without some kind of support.

So that my beef with your suggestion - IMHO it isn't practical, would almost certainly result in a substantial loss of players, and of player goodwill in the larger gaming community.  And in the end, the result would be just another FPS.  I think it's too much loss for too little gain.

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@FierceRadiance, are you responding to me? Because if so, I think you misunderstood what I'm saying because it has little to do with my point. What I meant is that if the time Joe and the PvP team spent upgrading PvP was instead spent working on comparable PVE attributes, the PVE game would be in a better place.

If you aren't talking to me I apologize, but you should put an @ reference to whoever you are.

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22 hours ago, kazenioware said:

PvP: is it worth the effort?

Or should they focus on the main part of this game?

I am asking this because i do not know many who play pvp in wf. And closing the gap to other MP games would be at the expense of the PvE part?

 

Gun Game pvp in Warframe will never work... because of one simple rule of game programming.... 3rd person camera + Hit scan weapon = Broken PVP. You can shoot through walls and around corners as long as your retical is on your target... they wont even be able to see you. I don't pvp because i have always felt that pvp in anything other than 1v1 and first person games is a joke and i dont do Lunaro because it feels completely out of place in Warframe. Warfame was originally designed around PVE and the fact that they are trying to bridge the gap between pve and pvp shows the DE has lost focus.

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