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[DE]Taylor

Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

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9 hours ago, marelooke said:

Can't find Mag Prime/Boar Prime or Dakra Prime parts on *any* of my "relics" what happened?

 

(Same appears to go for most of the clan online right now, and most of us had *tons* of keys)

I had at least 10 of every key from every tier. Some keys I had in the hundreds for the quantity. I now have only 5 of the maybe 7 total relic types for each tier. I have a minimum of 50 relics of the 5 I did get.

Why did my keys not transfer 1:1 to the new relics? I cannot understand this at all. It is a little upsetting that my collection is so invalid now. There were 7 key types per tier with 8 in tower 4.

Please fix my keys being aggregated in a manner that does not consider the variety of keys I once had.

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I got so few relics from my huge key collection, I got like only 20% of the relics compared to my keys. I saved and saved keys for weeks before the update. Why is there no transparency on what the conversion ratio was?

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My only issues are the cap for traces. (i do not see a real reason that they should be capped as they are need alot (no just for the relics, but also for the dragon keys and you never know whats the next thats gonna need Traces). Also i do not think that you should get duplicates after the mission (one time i got 3 paris prime blueprints in a team of 4, and 4 bronco prime blueprints in a team of 4). and in the relic things some of the rewards are duplicated already (saryn prime systems is one of them). so it is nice that you can choose the reward but its ... dumb that there are duplicates. (just my oppinion). aside from that its all good.

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Getting to pick what you can get is cool but the rest is meh. And that was a technical term.

It's just going in and hitting a switch to spawn a different type of enemy and then doing that feeding of items to succeed.

I have no issue with the enemy makeup or it not being solo friendly. It's just that this is just a normal mission with a little sidequest thing. 

 

i think you need to develop the encounter more.

Maybe have it that Void enemies start pouring in the second the mission starts. They start at the minimum level and the longer it takes for ppl to find the fissure the higher the enemy level goes. At certain marks they start spawning those ball traps, they basically start turning the stage into being more void-like to give the enemy bonuses?

 

Or just turn it into a Moba-type mission? You get called in by Corpus, Grineer, an Infested Diplomat, because they cant handle these incursions. They will back you up but you need to take the lead.

 

You have to make these missions into something cool cause right now they arent really anything fun. It's just a regular missions with a little bump in craziness. And the randomness of what missions pops up doesnt really fix that. 

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Hello.

Congratulations for Specters of the Rail. I am very optimistic about it, and I am eager to try out every new feature (archwing!).

New alert system is nice. 

I have a bit of a problem though: I had at least 10 Tower IV Defense keys prior to Specters of the Rail update, but now I don't seem to have any relic that drops T4D rewards. Devs mentioned that void keys would be converted to their correspondent relics, which is not the case for me.

What is going on?

Cheers

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11 hours ago, Skycook3y said:

Would it be antagonistic to say that I am extremely pissed about the fact that there's a normal goddamn Dual Kamas blueprint in one of the relic drop tables?

Because that's how I feel. I won't say any specific words though because then the sweet cinnamon rolls of purity that are the forum users would be deeply tainted.

However, tell my why this exists and why I had the luck to get one of these.

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198050521763/screenshot/267219116267752055

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198050521763/screenshot/267219116267750760

Nononononono.... what in the flying f*** is this unholy s***? What is any normal BP or item doing in a void drop table?

 

On another note, I'm a bit confused by something here. If we all choose a different reward on the tables set, do we have the potential to get each one? The description of how this works in the dev workshop makes me think that we get a bonus for choosing the same one, but we can get each of the items chosen if we choose different ones.

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I find the bonus traces you get from making teammates pick your item a great idea to promote helping others with your relics, and creates mutual benefit from using high-value keys. However, the amount of traces a player gets from this feels too small (1 trace on average compared to the 10+ from the tear itself). I suggest moving some of the traces dropped by the tear into the pick bonus (e.g. make it like 3 traces per pick instead of just one).

In addition, The system is actively discouraging you from picking your own reward, because whenever you do nobody gets the bonus traces. I suggest to divide up these bonus traces amongst all allies (you still get no traces) whenever someone picks his own reward. This gives each reward offered equal value for you (you get no traces for picking any) and equal value for your teammates (as a group, they get the same number of total traces).

It also appears that if you leave a rift open longer, it spawns more traces. This punishes me being fast and efficient in closing the tear and instead drawing it out to get more traces. A tear should drop about the same number of traces regardless of how long it stayed open (spewing out the remainder on destruction for example).

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Relic Sharing

Recognizing that keysharing was a regular community practice and codifying that in the game as an actual mechanic (and allowing players to run 4 keys simultaneously to save time) was a great idea. The supporting design around the implementation of "relic sharing" is not so great though. Most egregiously, I cannot see what relics other players are bringing along to the mission. This feels like an obvious thing that is missing rather than something that would be "nice to have", the fundamental mechanics of the Void 2.0 system that you designed implicitly make you interested in knowing what relics other players are actually bringing.

 

Actual "nice to have" features would be a way to force-prompt other party members to put up the same relic, this would be a very nice QoL touch for the way people play in public games via the recruiting channel and put less reliance on the honor system for everyone involved. In an even more perfect world, I would love to see a way to browse lobbies or matchmake with other players based on relics,  eliminating the need to deal with spammy public chat channels would be an enormous QoL boost. Warframe badly needs smarter ways to get like-minded players into lobbies together in general, I don't want to live in 2001 forever even if chat channels "work" well enough.

 

Void Tear

I like the pacing and elevated action of these little events overall, but I have mixed feelings about how nullifiers are used in them. My feeling is that nullifiers are merely annoying alone, but become outright anti-fun in the quantities that void tears generate. It feels like my Frame just gets completely shut down and all you can really do is just shoot. If I'm really honest and harsh it feels like you guys could not figure out a way to make these close-quarters ambush situations challenging without completely shutting down warframe powers with giant yellow bubbles. I understand the design dilemma but it's not fun as a player to feel so limited.

I'm not totally in love with the way Void Traces drop from enemies. I was initially confused about where they were coming from and they look visually similar to the drops that you use to seal the Tear itself. Further, the way the Lotus tells you to look out for Traces only after the void has been shut, it really seems like a bunch of these things should pop out of the rift as it collapses at the very end doesn't it?

End of Mission Void Loot

It would be nice to have some subtle visual indicator of the relative rarity, owned quantity, or especially the DUCAT VALUE of your item choices at the end of the mission if you didn't get what you wanted and don't know what to take. I experienced a number of situations where I was hunting for only one item, nobody rolled it, and was left blindly trying to guess which of these other random prime parts might be the next best choice. If you're going to force us to make a reward choice in ten seconds then it would be nice if the game offered even a little guidance. It doesn't feel good to panic-pick the item worth 5 plat because you didn't have enough time to look at warframe.market to see that another part was worth 50p.

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Ok, so, I've only managed to tried one Void Fissure so far, I don't have anything too....conclusive, just yet, but there are some first impressions, or rather, issues I would like to point out.

First and foremost, I'm a predominantly solo player. This is a perspective of a solo player. I'm aware that this is a co-op game and this update, specifically this new Void system is only reinforcing that. However, I would like to think solo is still a choice and should be presented as such, for the lone wolves or those with network issues out there. That said, my experience thus far hasn't been really solo-friendly.

It was a survival mission on Saturn. I went in there blind, meaning I only knew that there was a Fissure somewhere on the tile, and that I needed a relic to activate it and then seal it. So what's the problem ? Reactants. There were simply no indicators and it was chaotic, enemies spawning left and right, including Corrupted Bombards and Nullifiers, in rather close distances. In the end Reactants didn't spawn in time, timer runs out --> failed (Not that I'm aware if there was anymore lying around, since, like I said, no indicators)

Second attempt was successful, albeit just barely. Had to run from room to room to find the Fissure and barely had enough Life support by the time I sealed it, which brings me to another issue. I had to find the Fissure, which is, well, somewhere, on a relatively huge tile, while running back and forth to get Life Capsules, while finding mobs to kill, and when the tear is activated, running around killing corrupted, get reactants and shove it into the tear. while still doing the former tasks.

The multitasking is real.

There was simply too much going on and it was overwhelming. And in the end, I got one reward to choose. I mean, for as long as I know, solo play has always gotten you the short end of the stick, at least in terms of loot and exp, but now, to be Void-ed (pun very much intended) of a choice ? I'm not asking for 4 different rewards to choose from, but at the very least, to be able to pick between A and B would be fine.

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Would it be possible for the liset relic machine to have a list of all possible relics (ones you don't own being greyed out but still viewable) so players know which relic to farm for the part they need? Or bring back the forum drop table post.

Also I didn't see but can you search for a prime part in the relic machine? I only have a few relics but it took a few mins to find I had a relic that drops a precious Braton part <3 then I forgot which relic it was when I went to the mission select /o\

Thanks

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Besides hating the spawns and spawn rates for the fissure missions so far (been said here before and far more eloquently than I would have), I really hate that I did not receive all relics at least once. I always took care to have at least one of each key and I had hundreds of some. It seems I now have over a thousand relics, it feels like all the Tower Tier keys got transformed into the same age relics, which is fine, but I'm lacking relics and thus the possibility to farm what I want now, where I could have done this pre patch because I already farmed the keys. This is simply bad design, DE is punishing people for playing the game the way they intended to have it played.

I also strongly agree on how this new method is horrible for us vets that like to introduce people to the game, taxi them through some missions and void mission for some cool rewards: now they cannot get a reward unless they equip their own relic, which is just making the game less coop, more egoistic.

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Incoming mega rant so I'll put this in the front. TL:DR I don't like it at all, it feels worse and more obtuse than the old system and I wasn't a huge fan of the old void to begin with; and we could have avoided all this if only we had a PTR.

I will say this real quick I do like that there is consistency in how many possible items drop per relic having rare drops only drop one possible thing is awesome and such a breath of fresh air. Also the ability to slightly alter the weight of drops is a nice touch. Now I don't know what I was imagining when I first heard that the void was going to be destroyed but it was not this. Even with Steve acknowledging the nullie issue on twitter I doubt fixing it would change my opinion of the system in any meaningful way. At its core these fissure are boring and even more stale than the old void.

Now for the not so great stuff; of all the times people have stated that DE have just thrown crap at the wall and seen what sticks as far as systems go (and I am guilty of this,) only to have the pc crowd perform testing that honestly should have been internal or at the very least on a PTR or some form of soft launch; never imo has it rang truer than with this rework. Especially considering the scope and the importance of what was being reworked anything but a direct to live launch should have been used. Doubly so because there is a time limited event going on that is attached to the system being reworked and this "We'll do it live," approach screwed a lot of people over, yours truly included. Really if there is nothing else to take away from this post  it would be this; these huge sweeping reworks should absolutely go through some form of PTR.

A couple not so quick asides on things that are really important or perplexing:

1. So key sharing has been killed, I kinda liked it myself even though it relied on the honor system; it gave good value per key expended and a similar replacement just isn't present in the new system. This void 2.0 rework is screaming for a proper lobby system for premades, since it is basically the new key share. The most obvious thing is some form of UI to show what relic squad members are bringing in.

Imagine if you will I am farming for a grate prime BP which is a rare drop in a AXI NA relic. My best bet for getting one would be to recruit other people with a radiant version of said relic; only problem is said lobby doesn't exist and organizing a premade with such a goal in mind is inconsistent at best and a massive headache at worse. Worst of all you can't even tell if someone has equipped a specific type of relic till the extract at which point knowing said info only serves to confirm whether you got screwed over or not. It would be like if you couldn't see what dragon key players had equipped when doing vault runs. Imagine how frustrating that would be taking someone only to find out that he in fact did not have the key he was recruited for. At best you caught on early and just have to abort and reform wasting time but not keys, at worst he has leeched several runs off your team "without carrying his weight" as it were. At it's core Warframe is a co-op game every single system that allows for cooperation should have proper systems in place that allow for proper group forming.

2. The vault, this comes back to why we should have a PTR. There is a time limited event going on and mysteriously most everyone with old keys that had these vaulted items in their drop tables are finding that after conversion they have very few if not none of the relics that contain these items. I get it DE doesn't like players stockpiling but doing it during a month long event is a little on the nose I think. Also while most people have been correctly speculating the vault was going to continue regardless of the changes made to the void no such statement was made. I guess the siren song of double dipping on prime access money while also generating artificial scarcity of parts to keep platinum prices high was just too tempting; an official announcement of this would have been nice though because clearly not everyone was on the same page. What's the over under on when a new prime access is released a new relic that no one has is released with it to keep plat prices high and prime access packs selling? I'd say pretty damn high, but at least doing this will hopefully avoid the over saturation problem we had in the old system.

3. Odds and bars; well it's a start to having proper fleshed out drop tables and chances in game instead of relying on data mining and spread sheets. Now DE you've dipped your toe in the water, time to take the plunge. Bars with no reference numbers are about as useful and valid as graphs with no title or labeled axes; which is to say they are better than nothing but they ain't worth crap. I hated it when Mass Effect 2 used numberless bars to represent weapon stats, hated it when numbers were added in ME3 but told us absolutely nothing (what does 78 accuracy mean and what is the actual difference between it and 81 accuracy? Hell if I know. No surprise then that I hate it here to, it's hardly better than just having text next to it saying common (swimming in them), uncommon (you feeling lucky?) and rare (praise rngesus).

It makes deciphering what the drops chances of items on boosted relics is little more the guesswork. The bars on a radiant relic show all roughly at the same point but is that actually what is going on under the hood. Actual numbers would be appreciated here because:

A - We could properly determine if expending a vast amount of a limited resource was worth it.

B - It keeps the devs honest, I'm not too keen on repeating the Chesa kubrow or the sub 5% drop chance void stuff again. Data miners are gonna data mine, if nothing shady is being done you have nothing to lose by getting ahead of it.

4. Dragon keys and residual; so surprisingly I don't have too much crap to talk about this. It's different, now you have to expend a relic so you at least get something out of it on top of the residual. Problem is it shares the same resource as the relic buffing which is slow to acquire, has a small cap (stockpiling am I right?), and is supposedly valuable (remains to be seen, numbers would be nice here.) Now from my experience before voting you get on an average of 7-8 per each run; so if no one votes for your item it would take two runs to get the necessary residual to craft a key; so on average it takes longer to make one but you get slightly more out of making it. Why not give players the option to cut out the middleman if they so desire? Allow disenchanting of relics for a token that is only usable for crafting dragon keys; that way players that actually want stuff from a relic can still get their residual/prime part and players that do not want anything out of a relic can put it towards something they find more useful. Seems like a win/win to me, cuts out on some tedium, gives players a choice, does not affect stockpiling of residual.

5. Duplicates/Trash... Bad DE this is what we were trying to avoid in the first place with this entire rework. Why pre tell is there two forma BPs on the same relic? Why does another have two Saryn Prime Systems in the common and uncommon slots. And the Dual Kamas what are they even doing here? Are they lost? Did they take a wrong turn trying to be shuffled into junction rewards? Either way their kind don't belong here, nothing more needs to be said on the matter.

 

Now with that out of the way time to tackle the gameplay of these fissures, verdict is...

giphy.gif

So real talk time; old void was boring, repetitive, with players either murder running through a map, running to the objective then murdering everything or not running and murdering everything for as long as they could get away with. That was a problem for sure but really is it any better now? Personally I think it's worse. The void may have had little variety in it but it did exist. There was a difference between what you would take to a defense or a capture, between a survival and an exterminate. Sure most everything could be acquired from endless missions but there was usually an option to run a one off if you were so inclined. Now no matter what tier we chose, what the base mission is we are basically playing poor mans excavation against the Monstars from Space Jam (for the uninitiated http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/e/ef/The_Monstars.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140212033943) The game literally devolves into just dunking the glowy gold ball into the glowy gold space/time vagina while the glowy gold guys try to stop us. Am I missing something? Wasn't there supposed to be variety in the new void? Because if so I'm not seeing it. Literally the only thing that the base mission has an affect on is if it is Corpus because then we get the privilege of getting bursa's up the wazoo;. Where if nullies are the valedictorian of the school of missing the point of enemy design then bursa's are at the very least graduating with honors.

And here's the thing because of the corrupted composition and how fissure enemies are always a higher level than the base mission enemies (atleast in my experience); no one aiming for success is going to build around the base enemies because they don't matter. They aren't threatening even if they were the same level they still wouldn't be more threatening than the corrupted because the corrupted are handpicked to have the cheapest most BS enemies from each faction mushed into one frankenstein faction that just doesn't like to play fair. So if the base enemies don't matter (except for bursa's) and the mission type doesn't matter because it is trivial, then the only thing that would encourage variance in what you bring would be what you are doing once you try to seal the te... oh wait that never changes. So why would you bring anything other than tanky frames whose can enter the clustertruck that is opulent Space Jam and not get reduced to ribbons? Answer is you wouldn't; there's less build variety here than there was in old void where what you were doing atleast made for a little diversity.

Now we know the nullie spawns are being looked at but even still the whole argument for nullies was that they were obvious, you couldn't not see them and that a full auto weapon would ruin their day just like they would ruin yours. Yet for one reason or another they spawn with their bubble as big as it can be and just pop into existence almost directly ontop of the fissure that players need to hang around. Imagine if in old defense missions if nullies could spawn right beside the defense pod, that wouldn't be fun this isn't either. They should either spawn far enough away that players have the opportunity to deal with them or alternatively have them spawn with their bubble at minimum range and relax the spawning location to what it is now. Continually being nullified by enemies that pop into existence right beside you while having to remain in the area does not make for fun gameplay.

Quick aside I still think nullifiers are a twisted aberration that negatively affects the core gameplay loop of Warframe and should be cast aside along with the current iteration of bursas. But that is neither here nor there and I will shut up about them now.

So there is even less diversity in gameplay compared to how it used to be, how about the reward track? Do endless missions have any bearing on this can you go for multiple rotations? No, okay what about sabotage do finding caches reward you with an additional roll? No again (damn I actually really liked sabotage and not just because it gave you two items per key, that carrot on stick design actually encouraged exploration.) So no matter what the base mission is the reward track is the same with no ingame option to improve your lot. Le sigh... at this point I am tempted to place a couple more Commodus thumbs down emotes just to wrap this up but I will resist for the moment.

 

This particular part of SotR was not ready for live, even more so than the other stuff that in the past has went live despite not being ready for live. I don't like it and the biggest reason I don't like it that I haven't mentioned yet is that it pretends to be something it is not. We were told it would bring variation the monotonous nature of the void, would have us see the star chart while we got stuff (which it kind of does, but ultimately it doesn't matter), face different enemies which once again we do but again they don't matter (the corrupted are better bastards than any other factions and they will probably remain as such unless the other factions get super cheesy enemies that the corrupted do not.) It pretends to be more transparent but only superficially so and it does all this with a flashy veneer that on the surface sounds awesome but once you get down to it you realize it's still the same old song and dance. Still at least there is only one rare drop per relic so at the very least there was a small victory there. Now how about that PTR?

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We need to see what relic each player selected in the lobby before the mission starts! ASAP!

Just make the chat say this when someone selects a relic:

  • "Player_name_1 selected Meso D1 Relic"
  • "Player_name_2 selected Meso V1 Relic"

So we know who selected what, instead of just taking the risk and doing the mission just to find out someone didn't even use the relic or used the wrong one. And the chat thing would also help to know if someone wanted to scam us like:
 

Chat:

Quote

 

Me: "Hey dood, this is a Meso D1 run only, do you have this relic?"

Someone1234: "Yes, I do"

"Someone1234 selected Meso D1 Relic"

*Countdown to start the mission starts, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4..."

"Someone1234 selected Meso V1 Relic"

Me: "That son of a b*tch, trying to scam us!"

Someone1234: "Muhahahaha"

*Countdown continues 3, 2, 1, start*

 

 

 

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I feel like the overall implementation of the void fissures is a bit of a swing and a miss, a hopeful idea that fell flat so far. I'll take a bit to explain why I think so.

The idea of letting four players randomly come together on the fissure node without the hassle of manually forming a group is a good start. No more need to wade through LFG chat to find people with the same general target in mind to work with. You don't even need to worry about making sure everyone has a key, since you can now bring one of several relics, or bring no relic at all and just gather void traces! But wait, the loot options you get at the end are tied to what relics everyone else in the party brought! So if anyone decides to not bring a relic at all, you don't get an item choice for them. And if someone else brings a different relic than the one you chose, that's one less shot at the item that you want. Suddenly it all falls apart and comes back to forming a group of players all willing to use the same relic so everyone has four chances at the items they want from that relic. We basically shifted from one kind of keysharing to a different kind of keysharing. We need to at least be able to see what relics other players are bringing.

What's worse, we want from using one key to get one reward, to using on relic PER PLAYER for one reward. Assuming a full group of players all using relics, you now stand to spend four relics to get your choice of one out of four possible items. And you only get to choose a reward at all if you bring a relic. So you're spending your keys four times faster than you were before this update, and getting 1/4 of the rewards for it. There is something SERIOUSLY wrong with this. I'm absolutely hoping the whole voting thing gets either ditched and players just get ALL of the rewards shown, so that there is always one reward per key/relic. Maybe retain a piece of the voting feature by giving more void traces to players whose relics yield rewards that are more rare. Otherwise, there needs to be some kind of change to only use one key among all four players. Only getting one reward for four keys being used up is ridiculous.

Not to mention, they wanted to help players get away from the boredom and tedium of doing the same mission over and over in the void hoping to get the most elusive rewards, by making these fissures show up in all kinds of other missions. The problem I see here is, you go to these fissures, and do the same thing at every one of them, every time. For every single fissure node, you have to go on a scavenger hunt to find the fissure in the first place, then play reverse-excavation every single time, killing randomly appearing enemies that drop tiny golden orbs for you to bring back to the fissure. Meanwhile, you're getting a golden shower of Nullifiers, Bombards, and everything else dropping in from out of nowhere right on top of your head, like the void god is just pissing all over you with the most bullS#&amp;&#036; enemies and spawn locations for them and no way to properly counter them because they're already invading your personal space as soon as they appear. After dealing with this three times, I already don't like it. I'm near the point of saying that I would gladly deal with more of the old Void Defense instead. It just plain isn't fun. Also, the damn fissure needs to be marked on the map from the very start of the mission, and have its own unique map icon so players can tell it apart from the other mission objective. No more randomly wandering around searching for it, just show us where the damn thing is up-front.

I'm reserving judgment on the void traces and refinement, since I haven't really earned enough to try beefing up my relics and aiming for the big ticket items. I'll just say that so far, it seems drastically more tedious and annoying than it is worth the time or the effort to deal with.

Lastly, when you Accept a void fissure mission vote and it brings up the relic screen, there needs to be a confirmation if you hit Esc before you back out without choosing a relic, and it needs to NOT immediately change your vote to Decline. I missed out on a prime part and had no part for others to vote on because the mission immediately launched without me choosing a relic just because I wasn't sure what was going on and hit Esc to try to figure it out.

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I really like the new drop rate mechanics. It's like, "Hey, if you didn't get what you were looking for... maybe someone else got something else neat that you want anyway!".

It's inspired me to move away from solo play, which was more or less what I was doing (since I like the ability to pause the game and deal with RL now and again) - even when I didn't have to. There you go, you've changed at least one player's behaviour. :)

What I'd really like is some kind of indicator on the mission selection > relic selection screen, if when I'm choosing the relics, it could tell me what parts I have tucked away my inventory - or if the part is part of a weapon/frame I have completely built. Because I'm spending a good few minutes looking back and forth from menus to decide what relics to "burn" in order to get essence to enhance the relics that have the stuff I really want. It could just be a color highlight on the item, or a little note. The tricky part is scanning inventory to see if the completed part matches, especially since for warframes, we have part blueprint, completed part, and completed frame; I know that's a tedious bit of work to implement, but I can't be the only one spending so much time with it. It's great that the rarity's there, but the rarity is suddenly not nearly as important to me as whether or not I have the bit of kit already.

And again, if that "you already have this" indicator could show up on the reward screen on the end of the mission for the other relics that the teammates brought, that would be good too.

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Relic Sharing:

I was a little upset to learn that if you do not use a relic then you cannot choose from the rewards. I feel like it is unrewarding to have to drops that you are interested drop at the same time and then be forced to pick one. I know that relics and sharing is made easier because you only need to have the era key instead of the same mission. However, it was frustrating to see the extra parts go.

More importantly helping other players feels worse. There are two specific examples I'd like to use here: a single player helping one other player to get an item, and a group of 4 players who are attempting to get a part. For the 4 players, with both systems, you would need to run a normal mission to receive a key/relic. Assuming you are a group, everyone receives a key/relic of the type they are looking for from the same mission. If they are keys, you would have to run all 4 keys to the C reward (20 minutes) for a ~20% chance at the rare items(Most rares are approx. 5% drop chance). Conversely, for relics you can run a 10 minute mission(Stats are pretty much the same between the different mission types eg. 20 defense waves per key becomes 1 defense for 10 waves.) and the relic mission has a 20% (5% per player) drop chance for a rare. For endless missions, this means that time to receive a specific item is significantly shorter. For none endless missions, each mission may take a bit longer, however the relics will produce a 100% chance after 5 relics, than the 20 keys that would have been required before, there is also the refinement of keys which seems to increase the rare 5% drops to around 50%, meaning that after ~10 relics(assuming 10 traces per mission) the next relic will have 10x the chance. This means that after 11 rewards from a relic being run by a group, there is a 400% chance of finding the desired drop, whereas keys would have produced only a 55% chance. Overall, groups will find the desired parts they are hunting significantly faster than before, and the chance of having 2 different rares drop from unrefined relics is about 1 in 400 so as long as you're not mix and matching refined relics the chances are extremely low of missing out on a rare drop. There is also solo/assistance play to consider though, in a situation where only a single player is attempting to get a drop, or to help another player get a drop, the time will be reduced similarly to group play, there is also the benefit of not needing to have a specific key to help a newer player receive rewards from higher level relics. The newer player would also be able to use his/her own traces to increase the likelihood of the desired part by refining relics received from the experienced player. Overall, the new system should reduce the amount of relics required and the time required to find rare drops. The only thing that is being reduced by the system is the "ducat fodder" generated by unwanted drops, which DE has already come out and said that Baro prices will be reviewed and adjusted for the expected number of prime parts players are receiving. 

Void Tear:

After one run, my group decided to test if hydroid and nekros would work on increasing the Void Traces dropped. The rate felt a little lack luster as we were looking to find Mag Prime BP this weekend and assumed we would most likely need to upgrade the relic to have a decent shot. However, like most posts here the spawn rates of nullifier bubbles was insane. The Hydroid and I had to struggle to find a spot in the enclosed ship to use our abilities on mobs. With the changes to the way nullifiers work, I think that this spawn rate is too high for these missions. On a previous mission, I was Atlas and just had to watch as my rock minions destroyed themselves on the bubbles. I understand the idea and the place in the game that nullifiers represent, but in these missions I'm not sure how to get things done. 

Also, the fact that I have to interact with the reactant to close the fissure seems clunky. If I am playing a squishier frame I am likely to be killed while trying to get the reactant. This is to say that they do not fall into the map or I do not stand over the reactant reloading because the default action key is the same. With the added yellow lines (like a rare mod drop) they are easier to see, however currently the area around the fissure is still hectic to say the least. 

It would be nice to see the cap limit on Traces increased so that they do not get wasted when I am trying to get enough to the highest upgrade.

Loot/Rewards:

First I would like to state that after spending some time with friends trying to plan out what relics to run to make sure that we are always getting something useful, it is painful to miss the end of mission reward because you are trying to figure out which reward is the best. We were trying to make sure for like 10-20 minutes of checking with the new loot tables that this mission would feel rewarding to us. That did not happen for my one friend who did not get a chance to change which prime part he wanted for as a reward. 

A solution would be to make it a choice that you would lock in and once the majority of the group has locked in you could start a timer then. This would follow the pattern that has been used in other areas of the game.

7 hours ago, Nuctalina said:

Why don't move Formas and Forma BPs (+ rare resourses and packs of cores) to the old Void missions? Also, Void missions can drop Relics now. 

Only one thing my team was concerned about - farming fissures is already BORING. We did around 10 attempts, but it's boring now. The process of closing fissure must have some variety and scaling enemies.

Player Market/Economy:

Messing with a game economy is one of the most difficult aspects of any MMO and can have crazy outcomes because of how many forces affect them. The current market should remain mostly the same in every regard except for common rewards. Why? Because players are not going to be receiving 2 common and 1 uncommon reward for each chance at a rare, they also aren't going to be running 17 exterminates to try and get a single specific rare drop. This means that a lot of the excess parts will start to drain out of the economy, through both trading and ducat systems. This should, in theory, cause the prices of common items to raise slightly, while also lower the prices of rares. The biggest impact to the market will probably not occur until after the next Baro, or even the next prime set drops as players who already have vast stores of prime parts will slowly drain their inventory by trading or ducating the parts retained from the key system. You can also expect the "Prime Junk" to either increase in price or disappear as players will be producing less excess parts than before. Overall, the changes look to create a more stable and realistic economy, where parts that are in low supply increase in price(and vis-versa) and will help to eliminate situations where a part is only worth it's ducats as that part won't get produced with the new relic system.

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too many nullifier's and also Multiple items of the same thing in relics Meso c1 has two saryn systems and Meso d1 has TWO FORMA BLUEPRINTS when the community has said multiple times forma needs to be less common.

Not to mention the Forma blueprints are in every relic, and the tower 4 Axi N1 relic has it as the first one in the list. Really? the hardest tower has a high chance of getting you a very common item that you could get off of any other relic. that's very short sighted IMHO.

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Heres me, playing for around a year now, had fun grinding all types of void mission (some with scaling enemies) Allowed me to try out many different compositions for different missions, rarely got bored of it

 

Now its the same fissure resealing over and over again, easily got bored of it after 5-6 runs.

 

Pls return to void 1.0, was much more fun and entertaining

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So after playing more with this new system, it really needs some improvement.

UI

  • The void segment UI, should have a search bar which allows you to search for items and will display relics
  • In-game the interface should show you where exactly the void rift is, more often than not we have to waypoint it for other teammates, it can be hidden but automatically pinpointed when found
  • In lobby we need to be able to see who has a relic equipped, not very nice to get cheated by one member, similarly to the way dragon keys work

 

Game

  • The amount of cheese at high levels is ridiculous, osprey spam along with nulls is simply not fun, I assume grineer bombards with this would also be bad simply due to large spam in a small room.

 

Overall system is very good

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Really love the new system, so far the relic system seems good, I love being able to see the rewards tables and drop chance in game!

My only complaint would be that there are way too many high-tier corrupted units spawning even from Lith Void Tears - there should not be 5 nullifiers, bombards and heavy gunners at once.
EDIT: Just want to emphasize the point - there are WAY too many nullifiers. You cannot use ANY powers in a fissure fight which takes away at least half the fun.

Haven't had much time to experiment with the Void Trace system but by the looks of things I would suggest increase the cap and drop rate, especially as you are using them also for dragon vault keys.
EDIT 2: After playing a few more, might I suggest that void traces should drop more frequently at the higher level fissures? eg. more traces dropping at Axi than at Lith

Thanks so much DE, keep up the good work!

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Suggestion to improve prime part selection screen. Add ducats value and amount of part you already own:

6OSHgWi.jpg

1). Add the ducats value of a part. This way you will be able to select best ducats value parts if you are looking for ducats.

2). Add the amount of prime part you already own. This way you will be able to select prime parts that you are short on or you don't have at all.

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I can't say how RNG changed, as I played only two relics and didn't try to farm for specific relics. Especially the later one could be really bad depending on how much RNG is involved.

I have three points about playing fissure mission though.

1. I had at least one of each Key before the update, why am I missing relics now? (I really hope you can farm specific one as there are more relics than keys in the past)

2. I thought you wanted to lessen the need to do the same mission over and over again? Then why did you reduce the void farming to only one mission type? The mission itself might be whatever, but you always have to do the same sealing. Now it's for every prime part the same, before you had at least some diversity in what you do. I really loved Void Sabotage...the only Sabotage really worth to play too.

3. No more Rotation C endless  mission grind. Probably the only good thing I see about this change, the dropprates in like T3 Survival there were just insulting.

(4. Maybe just a personal thing...I'm kind of sad, that the void seems so negligible now. Argon seems to be the only reason to go there, kind of a waste of such a beautiful tileset.)

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Most people seem to be ignoring the REAL reason why the new Void is a complete disaster and that primarily comes down to reductionism.

Now, you could argue that every mission was, at its heart, "shoot lots of bad guys" and that there were only a limited number of enemies in the old Void but the various "success" conditions of the old Void were varied and could be accomplished numerous different ways; speed frames for Sabotages, bunkering frames for Defense, CC or invis frames for survival, etc etc. If you were doing a long T4 survival you could pick Ivara or Nova or Loki or even a mass carnage frame like Mesa or what have you and they would all work. Or you could even mix it up and bring a sneaky frame to an Exterminate.

With the new Void missions there is only one success condition that matters, the fissure fight, the additional win conditions based on the mission type are are generally low level and can be quickly swept up by any half competent player on any frame in no time. The fissure fight is all that matters, you're not there for any other reason other than to use that relic. Admittedly an old T1 non-endless mission wasn't exactly a challenge but this change has neutered endless missions as a game type.

So essentially all your choices revolve around successfully completing one quick fight. Additionally at this point in time that fight is one type only, a close quarters melee/explosives brawl with no powers allowed. Bring your tonkors and your Jag Kittags and just smash as fast as you can. Not only is this staggeringly boring but it destroys all diversification.

Like to play Mesa, sorry no Peacemaker. Like to play Valkyr, sorry no Hysteria. Like to play a slower frame that manages crowds, too bad, say goodbye to Loki, Nyx, Nova etc. Like to be sneaky, sorry no Prowl. Welcome to InarosFrame.

THIS IS HORRIBLE. There is already a massive reductionist tendency at DE to try and reduce everything to no powers when the whole thing that makes Warframe fun is the variety between frames with their powers and the high speed movement. Nullifiers, Bursas, low energy cap missions, energy leech. If I wanted to play a shooter with no powers I can fire up COD.

So whenever you are deciding what to bring to the "Void" your decision is just going to be around the best frame/weapon to win that single fight, the rest doesn't matter.

It can probably be fixed reasonably easily but I don't see DE's pride letting them change it. In the short term it could be de-S#&amp;&#036;tiefied by making the spawning enemies appear in a much larger radius rather than just spewing on top of the players. Also make the fissure fight longer so that there is something other than just a quick spasm of smashing. Get rid of the Nullifiers, completely, they have no place in a fight like this. This way other frames could bring their powers and playstyles into the mix.

In the long term to salvage the Void they need to bring in a much larger array of win conditions for the fissure event. Hey maybe an ancient Infested Boss tries to force its way through and you have a mini-Lephantis fight to heal the fissure. Whatever, doesn't matter, we just can't have the whole Void experience as one 30s fight.

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I whole heartedly concur that this is in need of a fix. My critiques are as follows.
1) Nullifiers and Bombards for the lowest fissure is a little rough for newcomers. Lith is supposed to be the introduction, not the ***-kicking.
2) If possible, some sort of match making system so you can farm relic types together. I do like this idea of each relic giving one reward and then everyone getting to choose, it encourages group play.
3) I have done two Lith Fissures so far, mission complete, but in the junction telling me I need to complete 3, IT. HAS. NOT. REGISTERED. THAT. So there is something wrong there.
I like a lot of things about this new update, but one or two things still need tweaking.

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