Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

[War-.]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)AleDiorio said:

DE shoulds put a mark (waypoint) in the map for the fissures, with a timer or something like that. I dont want run for all map

agree

[MacabreHaze]

10 minutes ago, maj.death said:

*waiting for people to realize if they all bring the same relic their chance of getting the rare drop is up by 400% (or whatever of the items on the drop table they want)*

That isn't how this math works. 

You'll have a higher chance, However no matter how many you have, you'll never hit 100%

Its possible that everyone will pull Forma BP. And then keep pulling it.  Like I did last night. Three people, one of them with an upgraded relic, all three of us pulled forma. One left, and so the other guy and I kept pulling Forma BP. New people to the group got other stuff. We kept getting forma BP and decided to call it quits for the night 




My Biggest complaints about the Rifts. 

1: Find the little yellow thing, next to the Big glowing yellow thing, while being attacked by glowing yellow enemies with glowing yellow bubbles. while they shoot yellow beam and big yellow explosions. In other words.. CONTRAST!  Make the rift closy things have a little purple in them (Maybe an aura) and float about a foot or two off the the ground so they're not getting lost in space bushes or kubow doo. 

2: Complete this mission in _1:39 Minutes or FAIL EVERYTHING. Again. Contrast! I for one can't read tiny white letters in the field of Yellow, (and a lot of white in the void levels) all that easy to figure out how much time I get.

3: Fail everything! So you fail to close the rift. Why does that automatically make the entire mission fail?

 

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

They need to 1) Increase the drops of void traces or 2) decrease the upgrade of relic cost, imo. Otherwise, the grind really is MORE, not less. Considering you now can only get 1 reward per key(even though you can have several rolls of the drops, with your team), and the rare drops are still chance, even with an upgraded relic, the chance is still likely you'll get the common junk.

[BroPyp]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

It's not about the difficulty. Why do people always miss that point? It's a huge hassle that detracts from doing what I want to be doing, and that I (as a player) am more than capable of doing. It's a pointless time sink. I want to emphasize the pointless part of that--not the time sink. If there were a real reason I would want to be doing it--and I can't even think of one that would make me want to complete the entire star chart--the time aspect of that argument would go away, but there isn't.

Agreed. With all due respect to the devs, I think they're under this impression that every single node in their star chart is actually fun to play to an extent -- this is what I'm gathering from this update anyway with the addition of junctions, and removal of missions we all used as "loot caves." But I do not find playing boring, meaningless missions only to finally do something that I want to do. Don't get me wrong, thats usually the case with most games anyway, you work towards something, but usually games have a baseline of "fun" to make sure you don't drift off to sleep whilst playing it (yes, this game bores me enough sometimes to put me to sleep).

Hell, they've even nerfed credit rewards. No longer can you do Sechura with Chroma and expect 35k (70k~ boosted) credits every time you do 5 waves. Credits aren't a problem for me at the moment but think about it, if any of us decide to buy a primed mod then we will need to pay that 1million credit fee, and any hope of you getting it from Baro is diminished because of the difficulty in farming ducats now.

What mildly disturbs me is that all of this was intended by DE. I like how the start chart looks, but from a user experience point of view the guys using controllers are right and it is unnecessarily difficult to navigate the UI. I would like to know what the devs envisaged the game to become before this update, because if this is what they want it to be now, then they should take a few steps back, stop hammering the nail into the coffin, and open their eyes to the simple fact that this update has ruined more than it has achieved.

[Bouldershoulder]

1 hour ago, VRHmason said:

...and still not get it

Ok, a few examples for you. I was farming for vectis prime receiver from the day vectis prime was released and I only got it 4 month later when in a regular interception on Jupiter, while farming for the godsbedamned T4 Exterminate key, I met a kind man who needed vasto prime something (blueprint, I think) which I had, and he had a spare vectis prime receiver, so we traded. I'm somewhat principal about obtaining stuff, so I tend to farm it rather than by/sell. Also, a friend of mine started farming the same vectis prime with me, but after a month he dropped out for a year from frustration. When he returned, we went farming it together. Again the same ridiculous chase after T4E keys and no luck getting the ruked reciever. I dropped it alone in the deep of the night when I had 1 key left and went for 'ah whatever'. Half a year to get 2 stlarning parts is not ok to me.

Dual kamas prime handles. Though they were dropping in the derelicts, same story for my friend as with vectis receiver. Again I accidently dropped them for him after 2 months of no success.

Similar story with Ash chassis. I lost count of how many keys I burned for 40-60 min. survivals (which is 2-3 rolls per key to get the item), definitely over 50, that's equivalent to 150+ runs of non-endless missions and even more if you count that capture can be done in 3-5 minutes. WTF?

Do I need to remind how awesome was the chance to get Trinity systems?

===

What we have now:

4 people can take the same relict for a mission. Someone goes as Nekros, someone as Hydroid, you can even sugar the squad with Atlas with his ore gaze - boom! you get 20+ void traces. Collect 100, upgrade your relics - now instead of 5% you get 40-50% for a rare item, and there are 4 identical relics so it's x4 the rolls.

The void is still there, there are even missions with 40+ starting levels, and fissures can spawn there as well. Feel free to do the void however long you like, but I'm fed up with it for the rest of warframe's days.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Bouldershoulder

[Webby_Frame]

So, you cannot invite your friends to farm anymore? 

[VRHmason]

4 minutes ago, Bouldershoulder said:

What we have now:

4 people can take the same relict for a mission. Someone goes as Nekros, someone as Hydroid, you can even sugar the squad with Atlas with his ore gaze - boom! you get 20+ void traces. Collect 100, upgrade your relics - now instead of 5% you get 40-50% for a rare item, and there are 4 identical relics so it's x4 the rolls.

The void is still there, there are even missions with 40+ starting levels, and fissures can spawn there as well. Feel free to do the void however long you like, but I'm fed up with it for the rest of warframe's days.

so basically if I want better and faster way of getting void drop I have to play (or my team) with certain frames...got it.
Before, grind keys, play any frame you want, hope rng is good to you.
Now, grind relics, grind trace, play certain frames, same thing on all mission types (fissure), hope rng is good to you.

Basically farming for prime now is limited to certain frames and 1 game type, meaning fissure. Yep, seems like fun.

[NinjaKitsune56]

6 hours ago, Ferah_Frithu said:

I've not played this game for long, but I was definitely enjoying it a lot before the update. I'm not saying I don't enjoy it now, because I still do, but the last few days have introduced me to pills that are very tough to swallow, and kinda make me question the way things go inside of the DE studio. The star map is cool, I like it, but it should be overhauled in terms of usability as well. I play with a gamepad, and at least 50% of the game is impossible to navigate to/from with a gamepad, and I have to switch to the mouse and keyboard. Kinda killing my flow there.

I agree on the Void part though, I can't be arsed to try and get there. Too much trouble for a rather small chance of "good" rewards. Stuff like argon crystals, orokin cells and forma was already annoying enough to get, but now it's so much trouble, I won't even try anymore.

Well, on the flipside of the Void, if you unlock all of the nodes there, you can drop an extractor in for resources now. True, it's a crapshoot, and you have to wait 4 or 8 hours for a turnout, but you won't need to hit the Void afters but for the occasional Fissure.

[Bouldershoulder]

9 minutes ago, VRHmason said:

so basically if I want better and faster way of getting void drop I have to play (or my team) with certain frames...got it.
Before, grind keys, play any frame you want, hope rng is good to you.
Now, grind relics, grind trace, play certain frames, same thing on all mission types (fissure), hope rng is good to you.

Basically farming for prime now is limited to certain frames and 1 game type, meaning fissure. Yep, seems like fun.

Feel  free to farm solo if you don't like higher drop rates.

[FrostDragoon]

If you only listen to one suggestion about Void 2.0, especially in regard to fissures, put the fissures on the mini-map!

This is the single most irritating thing about them right now. They have a TON of other issues, but this one is extremely frustrating.

However, I don't see the point in Void stuff anymore. Can't we just skip the dog & pony show, delete the keys/relics, and just have the prime parts, blueprints, forma, etc drop where those keys would normally have been awarded? This would make the star chart actually feel meaningful rather than an unwelcome, forced grind through empty content.

[Ciaus]

32 minutes ago, Bouldershoulder said:

Feel  free to farm solo if you don't like higher drop rates.

That's just it though, playing Solo and Duo (by far my two favourite and previously most common ways of playing) is punished on 2 separate levels. 
In fact solo is totally non-viable if the fissure tier you want is on a bad mission type like survival. 

It's stupid. ESPECIALLY given what a mess managing the relics is with 3 randoms. 

[JavCobra]

Not to be THAT GUY who has no problem with Ancients and Nullifies spawning on me but oops. I'm THAT GUY.

Honestly, I need a challenge. And not the silly challenge of facing hordes of enemies hundreds of levels above me but challenge by having different ways of enemies coming at you and better combinations of strong powerful units.

[Dan1lo]

Good thing:

Everyone has their own drop chance from their own relics and now people can search for different items together and choose from the drop list what suits better.

Bad thing:

Void Fissures drop from beaten enemies during the fissure minigame, so closing the fissure faster is considered BAD behaviour. If closing the fissure dropped void traces according to time remaining in the minigame, that would be amazing

[FrostDragoon]

Oh, you're THAT GUY that misses the point. Cool for you, I guess.

[BansheePrime]

1 hour ago, MacabreHaze said:

That isn't how this math works. 

You'll have a higher chance, However no matter how many you have, you'll never hit 100%


 

Lemme just put it simpler then, rarest item in a relic has a 1% drop chance. Four people have the same relic. chance of getting that item has quadrupled.

[Guvna-D]

1 minute ago, Dan1lo said:

Good thing:

Everyone has their own drop chance from their own relics and now people can search for different items together and choose from the drop list what suits better.

Bad thing:

Void Fissures drop from beaten enemies during the fissure minigame, so closing the fissure faster is considered BAD behaviour. If closing the fissure dropped void traces according to time remaining in the minigame, that would be amazing

When we were testing, it didnt seem to affect the amount of Void Traces, if we close it fast or waited until the last second.

[Ciaus]

1 minute ago, JavCobra said:

Not to be THAT GUY who has no problem with Ancients and Nullifies spawning on me but oops. I'm THAT GUY.

 

Warframe has always been set apart from other generic third person shooters by its WARFRAMES and their powers. 
Don't support losing the one damn thing that really makes this game unique and enjoyable for most because it's a "challenge". A contrived BS one that is still easily overcome by just bringing a limited variety of weapons and non-ability dependant tank frames. 

Staying alive as Saryn while spreading spores against level 70 grineer is very very far from easy, but you are still rewarded for using your powers well, in fact they are the main source of damage. Not all powers trivialise content, and in some cases certain CC powers *should* stop a group of enemies from being able to do anything. This is a horde shooter not CoD, and enemies should be designed with this in mind Doom style, not by just removing 70% of the game. The 70% that makes it different to any other game at that. 

[FrostDragoon]

Yeah, not going to lie: I'm not going to gamble my potential prime drops against the stupid relic trace things. I'm closing that sucker down.

[Choze96]

So i want to unlock the Phobos junction from Mars. to do that i need to seal 3 Lith Fissures. Problem: 3 out of 3 fissure mission i had since yesterday were in the void (at the moment its on Mot). Basically to unlock Phobos (from Mars) i need to unlock Sedna, Pluto, Neptune, Uranus, Saturn, Jupiter and Ceres. The fissure system is nice but not noob-friendly. for a player who only have Earth and Mars, to unlock Phobos you need to pass by a lot of high level planet.

[VRHmason]

48 minutes ago, Bouldershoulder said:

Feel  free to farm solo if you don't like higher drop rates.

Well didn't think about that...but now that I did, it is even worse.
Now I dislike this even more because I used to void alone or with my friend.

Once again, horrible system, horrible change.

[Bouldershoulder]

1 minute ago, VRHmason said:

Well didn't think about that...but now that I did, it is even worse.
Now I dislike this even more because I used to void alone or with my friend.

Once again, horrible system, horrible change.

So what has changed apart from that you will both need a relic to get a reward, instead of using one key to host? Drop rates are the same, but we were given the levers to rise them.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Bouldershoulder

[VRHmason]

Just now, Bouldershoulder said:

So what has changed apart from that you will both need a relic to get a reward, instead of using one key to host? Drop rates are the same, but we were given the levers to rise them.

before you needed a key, now you need relic and trace...
Also every mission is the same, you can argue about "different type" missions but all of them are same, in all of them you have to do the same thing, its like having 1 mission with different tile sets.
You obviously cannot play alone or with your friend, that is already established...
Now playing certain frames is one thing DE haven't learned from focus system....You know how when focus came everybody placed their focus on ash or excal...yeah now everyone plays Nekros or Hydro in order to get more trace.

So to summarize: 
1. You will grind more if you are not in full squad
2. You play same mission over and over and over and over again no matter what (fissure)
3.You need certain frames if you wish to progress
4.You need to grind for more stuff than before (relics and traces, before it was just void key)
5. RNG is still there

I don't see how is this any better than before

[Ciaus]

3 minutes ago, maj.death said:

Lemme just put it simpler then, rarest item in a relic has a 1% drop chance. Four people have the same relic. chance of getting that item has quadrupled.

No. Not quite. 

1 hour ago, MacabreHaze said:

That isn't how this math works. 

 

Sure, for small numbers like a 1% chance happening 4 times, it is ~roughly~ how the math works, but Mac is right. Doing it 100 times does not equate to a 100% chance. 
Doing it 100 times gives a 1 - 0.99^100 chance, which is ~65% chance. 

So let's say that once you reach 95% chance of having got an item, it is pretty much "guaranteed" (this is roughly 2 sigma, a nice common benchmark).

If something has a drop chance of 10%, you need roughly 28 rolls to "guarantee" it. If you feel that only at 99% do you really have a safe "guarantee", then you'd need 44 roles! This is why RNG can be so brutal, your odds of getting an item each role might not be terrible, but you are odds of "guaranteeing" an item in a reasonable number of runs are truly abysmal. 

[FrostDragoon]

4 minutes ago, maj.death said:

Lemme just put it simpler then, rarest item in a relic has a 1% drop chance. Four people have the same relic. chance of getting that item has quadrupled.

Actually, it does not. It is not (0.01 * 4) = 0.04. It's simpler to use the chance that it won't come up to do the math, so...

1-(99/100)^4 = 0.0394... 3.94%

It's still better than 1%, but you are spending 4x as many keys, so technically less efficient in a reward:key ratio. Obviously more efficient in a reward:runs ratio. This is also the chance that it will come up at least once. It has a 0.01^4 probability of coming up all 4 times (1/100m).

Of course, this is also assuming you get everyone to use the same key. Good luck with that part...

[MacabreHaze]

I'll never for the life of me understand the people who are like.. 

"Nullifiers are not hard! They're really super easy and provide a challenge"

How in the bloody blue blazes does something easy provide a challenge? Its kinda the opposite of a challenge. Of course that isn't to say that attempting to do something impossible is a challenge either. And Neither is doing something in an inefficient way to some extent. Like trying to use a sniper rifle to pop a nullies bubble or changing weapons more often than some politicians change what they have "always said".