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[DE]Taylor

Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

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59 minutes ago, Hayzemet said:

Ok I agree but in a different tileset, with a different faction, there is a difference there, much greater than before. Do you have a better idea?

Well the name for starters is different, and the prequisite to finish the mission as well.

Yeah maybe you did not found the rift fast enough in survival, maybe your core is unstable and going to explode, the rift can be optional.

The difference comes in the numbers; Before the patch a rare drop was roughly between 1% and 2.5% chance to be dropped. Now it starts at 2.5% iirc, if you have a party of 4 people then you have 2.5% percentage, but 4 rolls, which automatically reduces time spent 1/4, so this reduces the grinding time. Now playing to get some Ducats from easy level missions is great, you can receive 15 traces and almost always 30-50 ducats per run, with that you can achieve 100 traces, and 300 Ducats in 7 runs (10 minutes each) which is equivalent to the time spent in a 60 minute defense with a rare drop chance of 2.5%. You finish your mission and then do another run but with 10% chance for each rare drop, already 4 times the probability, but also 4 rolls.

Tldr; time is divided by 4 (at least) while chances are increased by 4. And while gaining much more ducats, and that my friend is less grind.

 

Fantastic @FrostDragoon now do the same math with the old system would ya?

Um, actaully no. Your forgot a number of things here. Rare drops were not 1-2%. Vauaban prime chassis and system dropped at 5% I thiought. There was no way Ash bp averaged 100 T3 rewards. It was rare but not that rare. You are overstating the rareity of the items.

"if you have a party of 4 people then you have 2.5% percentage, but 4 rolls, which automatically reduces time spent 1/4"

Wrong. If you are comparing a party of 4 here to a party of 4 in the old system you use 4x the number of keys so you have to grind 4x times the keys. It doesn't reduce grind by 1/4, it just moves 3/4 of the grind to relic grinding. Tried any yet? Some relics are seeming very rare and harder to obtain that others so that's where your grind is going to end up. It they are too rare you will spend MORE 4 times longer grinding for relics than you did for keys.

So that's less rare rewards, less ducats, and more times spent, overall. More Grind, in exchange for a better chance at getting a specific item you are hunting for at that time.

If you didn't care what you got in the old system you could just play and things would come, dukats would come, etc. It was actually more stress free.

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If you didn't care what you got in the old system you could just play and things would come, dukats would come, etc. It was actually more stress free.

This was actually my favorite part. I just enjoyed running the void. Sure, I'd done it a lot, but it was my favorite place. Now it's basically dead, and there's no real point to running it even when I do unlock it.

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5 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Um, actaully no. Your forgot a number of things here. Rare drops were not 1-2%. Vauaban prime chassis and system dropped at 5% I thiought. There was no way Ash bp averaged 100 T3 rewards. It was rare but not that rare. You are overstating the rareity of the items.

"if you have a party of 4 people then you have 2.5% percentage, but 4 rolls, which automatically reduces time spent 1/4"

Wrong. If you are comparing a party of 4 here to a party of 4 in the old system you use 4x the number of keys so you have to grind 4x times the keys. It doesn't reduce grind by 1/4, it just moves 3/4 of the grind to relic grinding. Tried any yet? Some relics are seeming very rare and harder to obtain that others so that's where your grind is going to end up. It they are too rare you will spend MORE 4 times longer grinding for relics than you did for keys. You also get 1 reward per key used instead of 4.

So that's less rare rewards, less ducats, and more times spent, overall. More Grind, in exchange for a better chance at getting a specific item you are hunting for at that time.

If you didn't care what you got in the old system you could just play and things would come, dukats would come, etc. It was actually more stress free.

Oh that's a good point, I do have endless amounts of keys so I overlooked it, no not less Ducats, I've farmed 2k, which I could never do (in the same amount of time) in the old days. I do not like farming without a path, at least here the path is clearer and with different views.

@FrostDragoon yeah the void may be rewardless atm, but they will fix it i hope  

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Just now, FrostDragoon said:

This was actually my favorite part. I just enjoyed running the void. Sure, I'd done it a lot, but it was my favorite place. Now it's basically dead, and there's no real point to running it even when I do unlock it.

Yeah. I loved it, just put your key in a run and hope. Now you have to decide what stone to bring every time, then decide at the end (quickly) then decide which one to increase with traces, then when the radient one gives you a forma bp anyway you feel like you worked for nothing or ground the traces for nothing. It feels more grindy. If you get your rare part from a radient you feel relived that you didn't waste your traces, not super psyched you won the RNG lottery.

I think the WOOHOO! moments have been unceremoniously stripped from WF and honestly that was the addicitive part of the game. The rush from getting the part after 25 tries. I think we changed from "Grind Grind Grind Grind WOOOHOO! - Repeat" to "Grind Grind got my thing - repeat". I think overall the new way swill feel more like work even if it does end up reducing grind a tiny bit.

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I'd run T2 Survival for 30 minutes for 4 chances to get forma BP every once in a while. It was great! I could get all the forma I needed. 

Now I'm doing fissin runs and getting a forma bp is like getting a steamy pile of bantha dung

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19 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

I dunno what to tell you; I don't find it terrible or boring.

If you're talking about camaraderie, it was the kind that we absolutely don't need - the brotherhood of shared pain and suffering. We can do better.

OF COURSE the "mission you are playing otherwise" is going to seem pointless when it isn't the reason you're there. Extrinsic motivation; the task is always "boring" or "repetitive" if you only consider it a means to an end. That's how humans work.

There isn't really anything in your complaint for me to discuss; it's all rooted in human psychology, so I don't have anything helpful to give you other than to suggest that you find a different way of looking at it. Even that isn't really a helpful thing to say.

 

Camaradarie:

key sharing. Getting a group together for the long farm for mag or what not. Now there is no sharing. It's individual. You don't even know if they brought a relic never mind which one. It's just you. How can you ever tell if anyone brought a raident relic or was just bad RNG? You can't At least you could ignore people who left a keyshare in the old system not do it again. Now the group can run mission after mission and you have no idea.

The WOOHOO feeling after  your group that has just run 15 T4Cs in a row gets their mag helmet.

Taking a newbie on their first void mission. It's all new. The tileset, the enemies, etc. It's cool. Now that just the same old mission on the same tile sets and then do the void tear once and thats it. A 1 minute void tear is the only difference in getting a prime. I remember when the void was mysterious and hard and like WOW I'm getting a prime. This system must be very underwhelming for new players, like an add on chore to a regular mission.

jumping on someone hosting a key you need when you ran out or running a key for a friend or clan mate who is after the item.

Getting a group together to do a Defense mission in the void. 20 minutes, so Frost. If you want to go 40 Frost and ash and such, 60 maybe need a nova. Now it's all 5 and out. Why would anyone go to 60? Nobody needs to even discuss the frames or make sure they work together anymore, nothing is hard at all.

Going to 40 when you miss your 20 minute reward cause you are low on keys. Pushing it to 60 when you miss your 40 minute reward and desperately battling from 55-60 and sneaking out by the skin of your teeth.

All this is GONE.

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i was hoping between void 2.0 and starchart 3.0 we would see the end of prime vaulting and have the older stuff accessable again any word on this?

pretty sure that was one of the main reason for these changes was the overstuffed drop tables

also whats up with the key to relic conversion seems like lots of people got zero M1 type relics

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24 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

OF COURSE the "mission you are playing otherwise" is going to seem pointless when it isn't the reason you're there. Extrinsic motivation; the task is always "boring" or "repetitive" if you only consider it a means to an end. That's how humans work.

There isn't really anything in your complaint for me to discuss; it's all rooted in human psychology, so I don't have anything helpful to give you other than to suggest that you find a different way of looking at it. Even that isn't really a helpful thing to say.

First of all I want to tell you that I respect your opinion and I'm not gonna hate you or be somehow negative attitiuded towards you because of your point of viev.

Well... the thing is the task wasn's always boring although it was repetitive as you mentioned. In Void 1.0 I loved doing sabotages, finding caches, getting two rewards... even competiting with friends or just random guys, who will find more caches. I loved interceptions - lots of people had different strategies how to get loot in the fastest way or stay as long as possible, I enjoyed killing all the bubbles for Banshee sitting on top of B point and using her 4th ability... I enjoyed sitting with mirage, I enjoyed launching nullifiers into space with lvl 0 Kogake for my friend who was playing as Hydroid... Finally I enjoyed doing stressfull solo runs with Loki. I even enjoyed slightly boring T3 Defence (on my way to getting Barrel for Boar and BP for Ash) played at 2 am with bunch of chatty randoms. 

All of the things mentioned by me are GONE. The Void itself has nothing to offer me. Instead I got the fissures...
You want to do Lith S1 or maybe Neo V1? How about Axi N2 or Meso C1? These are all the same. You get the same amount of bombards to kill and it doesn't matter if you are playing solo or not. You get the same amount of Nullifiers which you kill by the same amount of Tonkor grenades or Soma bullets or Tonbo hits... you get more or less the same amount of void traces which are capped at 100 whatsoever. I don't want to say I hate this system and it should be removed because the general idea seems amazing to me and that was my first feeling when I sealed my first fissure.

Yet another thing: I'm generally a solo player or I play with random people. I feel like with Void 2.0 the game got more clan-friendly. Clans do runs with upgraded relics, clans farm for certain things together, clans are getting a lot of easy stuff due to new system where you can choose your reward (which I quite like). Full teams have that handy opportunity of picking lots of different builds/warframes/weapons in comparison to solo players who can only rely on a few builds or amazing skill.

And yet another thing: why should I do MD or Def or Sabotage when I can wait for Capture? There is no reason at all and I want the reason which I had in Void 1.0.

That should be the last thing: the ducats. I did quite a lot of endless type missions in order to get some Baro mods, vanity and other things. Now I feel like I need to farm all day and all night to get as many ducats as previously.

Thank you if you have read this whole wall of text and sorry if there are some mistakes. I really want to have you involved in high quality discussion because you represent a rare point of view on this update - you see no issues or only a few of them.

I'm really looking forward to reading your reply @notlamprey.

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52 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Camaradarie:

key sharing. Getting a group together for the long farm for mag or what not. Now there is no sharing. It's individual. You don't even know if they brought a relic never mind which one. It's just you. How can you ever tell if anyone brought a raident relic or was just bad RNG? You can't At least you could ignore people who left a keyshare in the old system not do it again. Now the group can run mission after mission and you have no idea.

The WOOHOO feeling after  your group that has just run 15 T4Cs in a row gets their mag helmet.

Taking a newbie on their first void mission. It's all new. The tileset, the enemies, etc. It's cool. Now that just the same old mission on the same tile sets and then do the void tear once and thats it. A 1 minute void tear is the only difference in getting a prime. I remember when the void was mysterious and hard and like WOW I'm getting a prime. This system must be very underwhelming for new players, like an add on chore to a regular mission.

jumping on someone hosting a key you need when you ran out or running a key for a friend or clan mate who is after the item.

Getting a group together to do a Defense mission in the void. 20 minutes, so Frost. If you want to go 40 Frost and ash and such, 60 maybe need a nova. Now it's all 5 and out. Why would anyone go to 60? Nobody needs to even discuss the frames or make sure they work together anymore, nothing is hard at all.

Going to 40 when you miss your 20 minute reward cause you are low on keys. Pushing it to 60 when you miss your 40 minute reward and desperately battling from 55-60 and sneaking out by the skin of your teeth.

All this is GONE.

The new UI definitely needs to show what relics (if any) squad members have equipped, no argument there.

This "woohoo" feeling is just relief that the pain is over. You suffered for a while, and then the suffering ended. You bonded a little with the people who were also present and suffered with you. That's really all there is to it. I know you feel strongly about it, because that's how people are wired up. Far be it from me to dump on your very real emotional connection to that stuff; I know it's real for you and my ability to explain it doesn't invalidate it.

It's an unfortunate combination of things all having to do with how people process events. You aren't at fault in any way for being attached to the old way; it's totally natural. I'm just saying that's really the only argument you're giving me in favor of the old void. "I liked it because I was invested in it."

I literally just did a Lith tear with some lower MR randoms, and had to explain how the fissure worked for them. It was new, mysterious and hard for them just like you describe the old void being for you. Again, nothing but your own perspective here, presented as argument. I stress again, not your fault, but it isn't a compelling case for bringing the old void back.

You say that prime acquisition isn't hard anymore, but I would argue that it never was. Squad composition and roles were so routine that long void missions were so well-rehearsed as to be boring for those who did them the most.

The end bit there is just more nostalgia for suffering of the past. Your investment has been devalued, and you're unhappy. This is all normal and I'm not judging you for it, but you have to understand how it makes your argument look for me, sitting where I do.

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Fissures turn every single mission into a forced pseudo-survival, with the same problems - a timelimit and a RNG-based drop of an item you need to get before the timer runs out. That, combined with hateful enemies (Nullifiers, Bombards, Heavy Gunners) spawning that are both quite the bullet sponges and completely ruin your day because they spawn directly on the point with no warning), makes for a rather un-fun experience.


Solo-players seem to get generally shafted once more, considering their ability to get the fissure to seal before the arbitrary timer runs out and the game goes "well, better luck next time".

On Corpus missions, they will also keep spawning Bursas the second you activated a Fissure, too. For no reason. Just to give you another kick in the rear while you're down on the ground already.

I don't know how to improve this, really. I would guess removing the timer or increasing the drop-rate for the traces and fuel item, and sorting the spawns out better. On high-level missions, I would expect Bombards and Nulli-Bubblebutts, but on low-level missions the only thing that should come out of those fissures are low-rank  crewmen and grineer grunts, with shield drones and occasional Ancients thrown in for good measure.

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22 hours ago, nelu_Y3K said:
  1. The worst problem is that now everybody needs a key to get a reward. This means that we can no longer help clan mates or random people with our keys. This is very bad, Warframe is a coop game, and you just removed an excellent way to help new people. I have a solution to this major problem, make it so that if the game is set to "Invite only" all the players get a reward even if they do not have a key. Normal games should still require a key to get a reward. Please do not ignore this problem.

Didn't think about that one, but I'd like to upvote this a lot, like... a lot. 

The ancient system wasn't inherently better, it was also crazzy frustrating when you were looking for very specific things in rare-to-get keys.

As I and others said, the Void needs its specific set of rewards. If there we can get small amounts of void traces & ducats, Forma, relics and R5C in longruns, and regular special containers in secret room vaults containing ducats and/or forma BP, that would be enough (at least for me) because those things are always usefull. Some big payday could be the super-rare drop (like 50 ducats or traces in a C rotation, or a fully crafted forma) to get excited for. Void Traces we will always have a use for, and same goes for formas and ducats. 
The Void needs to regain some of its magic. In a sense, The Void is the dream, the Derelict is the nightmare, and the Origin System is the mundane, the daily routine of us Tenno mercenaries. In that regard, the Moon is sleepwalking on a razor's edge of crumbling splendors. But the dream of the Void needs some magic to fuel itself; it can translate in some reward that are specific to it.
Mechanics are important and, as stupid as it sounds, drop tables and what you can find in a mission have meaning. If they are mundane, the place is mundane. I'm sorry DE, but we cannot have that in the Void. It needs more. It deserves more.

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I wanted to +vote on adding ducat price and ammount of parts already owned on reward screen.

In team of 4 random people making decision what to take in 15 sec seems impossible (unless you are missing only few specific parts and don't care about other).

Or if it is not possible for some reason to implement - give players more time to decide (i.e. player can decide with no time limit). Interface could be similar to daily rewards when you have option to choose rewards (this happened so far once for me in nearly 100 days of playing so its there).

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I'd really like to be able to see which parts I already have, and how many. That would be immensely helpful.

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Another thing, I'd like to see the excess reactant be put to good use. There always seems to be a bunch of the stuff leftover when the fissure closes. Perhaps the remaining reactant could be converted into traces?

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The more of these new Voids I do, the more I see the following issue happening.  That is, not seeing enough reactant drop to complete the Fissure.  It just magically starts dropping less and less the higher the percentage.

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Ok i usualy don`t post on forums but still ... This time i really feel like i need to.

So here is my humble opinion.

-Void 2.0 is slightly bad for veterans (or at least for me). You have the same system but with more grind ,you have the same small chance of droping rare prime parts no progress / progressive rewarding system for void.

-FIX.1: Mixing old with new is good => having some sort of stratification T1 T2 T3 T4 can refine the boundaries between what a new player can do and what a veteran can do ...Low Lvl vs High Lvl The reward should be higher as the towers get harder and harder.) We all start from the bottom not with Nova Prime and Boltor Prime at Mr3 >.> .New players should be playing normal missions not void ... void should be something hard because of the prime frames (END GAME). Cause right now we have no end game ... it`s more like a dead game. (referring straight to void not to sorties or raids)

-I formaed my frames 5-6 times just to be stronger to push myself and my limits so i can do higher times (survival) in void . But right now i don`t feel this is rewarding at all.

-Fix.2: Mastery Rank is not used at its full capacity ... creating a system with no lvl boundary is hard and it can generate problems... Make more stuff Mastery Rank binded so people would actually need to play with other weapons and other stuffs . Make the void Mastery Rank binded (worthy of entering the void).Same goes with Orokin Derelict.

-Fix.3 Playing Capture and after having to shift to another objective witch takes more than the first objective it is bad ... finding and closing a fissure takes more than the capture mission >.> mark those stuff on the map so it would be easy-er ,Fissures should be present only in survival missions or in special missions where you actually have to seal fissures.

-Fix.4 No more Solo playing witch i enjoyed allot ... If i need prime parts i`d better get a full party >.> What if i told you that i have a 100kb/s internet and i can`t play with a full squad cause i have 300-400 ping all the time....

Sum Up:

Void is to easy now,  fissures are a good idea , but make it normal survival with normal timer like the old one and spawn 1 fissure once every 5 minutes .

Mastery Rank needs to be a reference to progression , bind more stuffs to MR.

Make it more rewarding for higher Lvls (people who actually worked for the game).

Bring back solo game-play. 

PS: Saw a comment above with the reactant being converted to traces! I totally agree with that would reduce a bit the grind fest!

 

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Right now, there are 6 Fissures. On the entire star map. Six. 

So for the next 1.5 - 3hrs, I have six missions to choose from. Except...I dont.

If I want something from a Neo Relic, I have ONE mission. ONE. Except...its rescue. Which meshes really badly with the new mini game. (And which I dont find fun to begin with). So Neo is completely OUT for me, right now.

Five missions left.

Except one of them is a 9-11 Exterminate Grineer. Which there is ZERO point for me to run. No challenge. No meaningful amount of Affinity. No rewards other than the Prime part, IF I manage to complete the terrible mini game. 

So that mission is out. 

Four left.

One is Orokin 40 - 45. Unless I find others doing the same one, forget it. No way you solo that thing. 

Three left...

Do we see where this going, yet? There's no point for me to even bother with Fissures for the next 1-3 hours. After which time, I will be in bed. Sleeping. 

This system is beyond flawed. Its actively making people NOT want to play the game. Its complete frustration. 

 

How to Fix It:

We need 15 - 20 Fissures on the map at all times. The whole point of this was MORE choice. NOT less. 

ALL Relic types should have 2-3 different mission types available at all times.

Bring Back the OLD Void.

For Survival:

Replace Life Support with Reactant. Players need to gather reactant constantly throughout the mission to keep the Tear closing. New tears will appear every 5 minutes. The Relic the players brought for the mission will be used for all of those tears. 

For each Tear players complete, their chances of rarer loot increase slightly. 

 

For Tower Interception:

Each Tower is a Fissure. Otherwise the mode works the same, with one change: For every 5% increase in control points players achieve, they gain a slight bonus chance to rarer items available from that Relic. The Relic brought to the mission, will work for all rounds. 

 

Other Tower Missions:

Fissures open somewhere on the map. NO MINI GAME is spawned. Activating the Fissure closes it, granting the item. The enemies are already Orokin. NO need to spawn another horde of them. 

 

In Summary:

We lack choice and options. This needs to change. 

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Can we have a few options in matchmarking while using relic? namely:

mach make with random

match make with squad holding the same relic

match make with squad holding the same relic, same level of refinement

It doesn't need to be fancy. just a couple check boxes while you are selecting the relic. I mean. this sounds reasonable, right? RIGHT?

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On 7/8/2016 at 4:54 PM, NeedMoarBoolits said:

I agree with this, but I want to add that its also extremely helpful to see how many you have of each reward that is offered (so you can see when an item is new). Its tough remembering for an entire tier which items you do have and which ones you dont, unless you're at the point where you only need a few. Wouldn't want to confuse soma prime receiver with soma prime handle for example.

Add a +1 for me.

Also, kind of wrong for Rescue missions to spawn the Fissure beyond the rescue target.  By beyond I mean there is no way to get to it without first rescuing the target and then having to keep him alive during the fissure phase.

I find that this new mission lessens the fun a lot.   It encourage a form of griefing, intentional or not, in that someone can start the fissure phase when no one is around, or when you are in the middle of defending a mobile defense target.  One individual can fill the fissure asap, reducing the amount of traces that everyone collects.  It simply encourages only teaming with known people and not pugging.  Every MMO needs to make their game reasonably PuG friendly.  

Lastly, the 100 trace inventory limit is a real screw job.  If you are trying to make a radiant relic, you are all but guaranteed to waste some or a lot of traces getting to 100.  Even the Syndicate caps have some overhead room so that you can get the primary weapon without wasting syndicate xp.  

 

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2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Right now, there are 6 Fissures. On the entire star map. Six. 

So for the next 1.5 - 3hrs, I have six missions to choose from. Except...I dont.

If I want something from a Neo Relic, I have ONE mission. ONE. Except...its rescue. Which meshes really badly with the new mini game. (And which I dont find fun to begin with). So Neo is completely OUT for me, right now.

Five missions left.

Except one of them is a 9-11 Exterminate Grineer. Which there is ZERO point for me to run. No challenge. No meaningful amount of Affinity. No rewards other than the Prime part, IF I manage to complete the terrible mini game. 

So that mission is out. 

Four left.

One is Orokin 40 - 45. Unless I find others doing the same one, forget it. No way you solo that thing. 

Three left...

Do we see where this going, yet? There's no point for me to even bother with Fissures for the next 1-3 hours. After which time, I will be in bed. Sleeping. 

This system is beyond flawed. Its actively making people NOT want to play the game. Its complete frustration. 

[...]

In Summary:

We lack choice and options. This needs to change. 

A really good point in here and a really bad point.  

Good Point:  In a (real) world where life is increasingly "on demand" (TV on demand, Movies on demand, Shopping on Demand) you, DE, are reverting to "scheduling" what we can play and when.  Before we had an "on demand" level of flexibility.  

Bad Point:  No MMO is completely soloable and there will be content you have to do that you may not like.  If you don't want to play with others, you will be limited.  In the old void, there were parts only available in high tier missions that were very difficult to solo without advanced mods/builds.  The only hard line in the sand that most MMOs respect is to not "make" you pvp to advance content.  

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I think the system would be better if the fissures showed up like the acolytes in the shadow dept event.

Basically they show up in regular missions, instead of replacing them.
This should also happen to alerts btw. I would like excavation and spy alerts much better if they gave the regular reward + the alert reward.

One big problem is also that you spend most of the time in the mission closing the fissures. So instead of more variety we get less variety. 

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