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[DE]Taylor

Void 2.0 Feedback [Megathread]

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Thank you DE for the work. I think changes are important and can refresh the game even if they seem scary or bad at first sight.

Void 2.0 is interesting but it needs to be refined:

1 - Give a faster and more consistent way to farm Void Tracers. We need 100 for just 1 relic. Also increase max relic we can have (not 100 max). Maybe let us farm Tracers on the Void tile set i don't know.

2 - Let us see what relic was select on squad so we can do some Relic shares and improve rewards.

3 - Fix the null spawn and their giant bubble.

4 - I don't like to have a mission inside a mission. I think it's boring to have to complete a exterminate mission against corpus + the Fissure seal thing.

5 - Maybe in the future think of new ways to have the fissure seal missions. For now it feels the same thing all the time. Crowded place full of guys. Just a mess, feeling like a cheap hack n slash. There's no strategy we don't need a team composition, just go and keep pressing E.

There are more things to improve but i only recall those for now.

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Matchmaking for Fissures is not fully working.

When i select fissure from list it connects me with PUGs but nothing happens. No timer, no counter, we are just in group but cant start mission.

So abandon the group and try again. After 4 times it works.

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While the core concept and idea is fine, it overall is much worse.

The issue you tried to fix was running the same missions over and over in void, however it is replaced with just one mission type; the fissure (thus making 6/7 mission types just 1).  Sure you have another mission involved but that is more just some additional objective to completion, like when missions changed objectives, from one type to another.

Likewise the prime loot system (while a nice concept) is worse for all but 4 player groups, and then I'm not certain and will take time to see if it is overall better for full 4 player squads (alot lower base drop rates on rares for solo and duo players, than the previous missions gave, which was a large part the reason players were in the void so much).

Reactants really need way better drop rates for reactant to be achievable, at the higher Neo/Axi level you barely get any at all while solo/duo (less than needed to complete the mission) despite killing all the spawns before the shimmer has even had a chance to wear off.

Why is forma even an option on theses when it could of been reason to actually play the void nodes instead?

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After doing some void fissures over the course of the past few days, my main problem as a solo player is this: It's really easy on certain tilesets--mainly indoor ones with lots of cover, like ships--for enemies spawned by the fissure to either spawn out of sight, run out of sight, or otherwise make tracking them down (and thus getting reactant drops) a huge pain. This is compounded somewhat by the AI for corrupted lancers/crewman, who are programmed to seek cover and will routinely end up well out of the fissure area in some of the above tilesets. Combined with the relatively slow spawn rate for solo players and the fact that reactant only sometimes drops, this can lead to cases where I'm not making the timer not because I can't kill things, but because half of my kills require me to track down targets that have spawned or fled behind a corner two doors down.

To condense all that into a central idea and potential fix, it would be much more fun if the corrupted spawned from fissures would keep to the area immediately around the fissure, so that the action is centralized like (I assume) it's supposed to be.

Another, more minor thing: Corrupted spawned from fissures seem to be aligned with whatever faction the mission type is normally home to, meaning they're treated as allies instead of enemies by the Corpus/Grineer/Infested. This struck me as a little strange, and more than a little frustrating when certain enemy combinations come into play (e.g. corrupted ancients with bursa moas). Not sure if it's intended but I figured I'd mention it.

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There is a big need for increasing limit of tracers to 999. Right now tracing tracets requires too much attencion, and it is not fun, and not even part of gameplay.

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4 hours ago, Geraaltix said:

If nothing else is done with this current relic system, realize this:

There is no point to having three tiers of quality in relics. No one is going to spend just 25 or 50 void traces if they can spend 100 for the best odds they can get.

Sometimes it's not the rare you're chasing. Refining doesn't only increase the drop chance of the high end items, it changes the entire drop chart (at least according to the graphics). Increasing the chances of the mid-level items with less traces is still worth it if that is what you are trying to earn. You can do two or four relics instead of one and spread the chances out across the relics. Statistically, it should increase your chances of getting what you want fairly well and you are throwing more rolls at the rare just by circumstance. If you can get others to do the same for your relic share, then it's a really decent chance and the chance of the rare is somewhat boosted for every player for two to four runs instead of a one-and-done gamble.

We don't have the real numbers behind any of this, so it's hard to say to what extent it might make sense to do this, but just in principle based on what it shows graphically there is definitely more strategy to be used than just "save 100 and shoot for a rare".

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23 minutes ago, Llewellyn_Lionheart said:

Sometimes it's not the rare you're chasing. Refining doesn't only increase the drop chance of the high end items, it changes the entire drop chart (at least according to the graphics). Increasing the chances of the mid-level items with less traces is still worth it if that is what you are trying to earn. You can do two or four relics instead of one and spread the chances out across the relics. Statistically, it should increase your chances of getting what you want fairly well and you are throwing more rolls at the rare just by circumstance. If you can get others to do the same for your relic share, then it's a really decent chance and the chance of the rare is somewhat boosted for every player for two to four runs instead of a one-and-done gamble.

We don't have the real numbers behind any of this, so it's hard to say to what extent it might make sense to do this, but just in principle based on what it shows graphically there is definitely more strategy to be used than just "save 100 and shoot for a rare".

While that may be a fair point, it's probably likely that you wouldn't even need to touch refinement for these items, they aren't that hard to get. The vast majority of uses for refinement will be to raise odds for the rare drop.

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On 7/8/2016 at 8:35 PM, specspore said:

In T2 void rifts nullifiers are spawning right next to people with a swarm of bombards. If you run any of these missions with a frame that buffs them self like chroma the nullifiers can just spawn next to you and ruin your day.

I agree. The nullifiers render any warframe useless. I usually play solo and this really annoys me. The only warframe that is viable for t4 solo play now for me is Ash with arcane trickery so that is can kill the nulls silently and then use bladestorm on them. As a player that usually prefers playing with various frames this can get pretty frustrating.

I'd also like to add that Void 2.0 is mostly ok for me except that i'd still like the void to have some special quality. With prime parts removed from it, its just another tileset and I feel it should be a bit more than that. It would be good to introduce some special rewards for doing missions in the void.

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On 7/11/2016 at 4:14 PM, notlamprey said:

The new UI definitely needs to show what relics (if any) squad members have equipped, no argument there.

This "woohoo" feeling is just relief that the pain is over. You suffered for a while, and then the suffering ended. You bonded a little with the people who were also present and suffered with you. That's really all there is to it. I know you feel strongly about it, because that's how people are wired up. Far be it from me to dump on your very real emotional connection to that stuff; I know it's real for you and my ability to explain it doesn't invalidate it.

It's an unfortunate combination of things all having to do with how people process events. You aren't at fault in any way for being attached to the old way; it's totally natural. I'm just saying that's really the only argument you're giving me in favor of the old void. "I liked it because I was invested in it."

I literally just did a Lith tear with some lower MR randoms, and had to explain how the fissure worked for them. It was new, mysterious and hard for them just like you describe the old void being for you. Again, nothing but your own perspective here, presented as argument. I stress again, not your fault, but it isn't a compelling case for bringing the old void back.

You say that prime acquisition isn't hard anymore, but I would argue that it never was. Squad composition and roles were so routine that long void missions were so well-rehearsed as to be boring for those who did them the most.

The end bit there is just more nostalgia for suffering of the past. Your investment has been devalued, and you're unhappy. This is all normal and I'm not judging you for it, but you have to understand how it makes your argument look for me, sitting where I do.

Very well said. And a valid point. 

While I think the new system has many faults - sheer repetitiveness chief among them - I dont miss grind the same survival for 20 minutes, over and over again. I really dont.

That said, I also wont miss the mini excavation event we have now, when its finally gone. Or when we get to do other things in its place now and then. I find it repetitive, and honestly, at lower tiers, utterly pointless. Of course, this is coming from the standpoint of someone with 3 Formas on Frost Prime, Four on Vaykor Marelok and Two each on Vaykor Hek and Sancti Tigris. Probably my experience does not mirror that of newer players, who are likely finding even T1/2 Relic runs fairly challenging.

Have to be fair to newer players.

Still, while I think the new system needs a LOT more variety, what is said here is true: mutual suffering can actually create a strong bond. And that bond can often feel oddly like a fondness for the events those who suffered together shared. Its not just empty psychobabble (though plenty of that exists to be found). There's truth in those words.

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After playing several fissures solo, I have come to realize that it is nearly impossible for me to beat these missions. Sometimes the RNG screws me over so badly I can't even get the fissure sealing above 30% before it closes. Then, playing it with only another player at my side, we had absolutely no problems whatsoever. It seems that adding just a single player to the game increases the drop rate of accelerant DRAMATICALLY. So...is this really how you want to encourage teamwork? By making soloing fissures almost impossible thanks to dumb rng? My gear isn't weak. At all. I can kill enemies easily. I would take Inaros onto t4 survival and be able to make 40 mins easily, could go an hour if I wanted to or more. Now? I can MAYBE close a fissure 1/4th of the time.

 

And, another thing. Before this, we had an exceptional way to just farm up junk parts in survival/def/sab. As such, this was how many of us made our plat as I'm sure you know. Now, I'm not saying the economy isn't going to change, I think it will one way or the other. However, would it be so difficult implement multiple fissure spawning in survival or defense missions?

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***You need to fix ASAP the ¨multiple missions on a single nod¨ .We can´t choose which mission to play, you know that right?

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The innovation is really good but people will have enough of this quite soon, (me too).

Can we get later other kind of void fissures ? right now it's just like in survival when you need to kill enemy in order drop life capsule in order to stay a longer time.

for example

Spoiler

 

an extermination fissure => more corrupted enemies spawn and you have to kill them all

sabotage => you have to travel into a portal created the fissure when you active  it, the sabotage void mission could be like the older one or regular sabotage 1.0/2.0

mobile defense=> you have to defend against even more enemies, (each ennemis killed scelle a little more the fissure or you just have to defend against more ennemies, it's depend you want the regular timer defense & a kill-meter to fill, or just a timer)

rescue => either we keep it like this we have to liberate & escort a captive from the void before the fissure disappears

capture => keep like this or add an extra target to capture who loot some void traces while you deal some damage to this new target

spy => either like it right now, or you have to hack a void console like the ones on the moon, some void traces may appear in the containers

hijack =>I don't have any idea to suggest so keep it like it is please.

 

defense => you have to defend a second objective while you still defend the 1st, each 5 wave you gain an item from the void.

survival => you have to keep the fissure closed for the longest time possible, starting to 50 % it grow of 1 % (each 5 sec ?) , each reacting decrease the percentage of 5.

interception => defend an extra point, while it is to player control nothing happen beside some corrupted ennemis spawn, BUT if the enemy take control, it will spawn a lot more of corrupted units who might overcome the tenno

 

Can we increase the number of maximal void traces from 100 to (125-130) ? it's really boring when you are at 95+ void traces and you loot 10 + void traces, such waste.

The mission do really have to failed if you don't scelle the fissure ? my opinion say no, but you're the one who decide

 

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I have been struggling for days now to like this new system but it's just not working.  I have been playing this game going on 3 years now and it's #1 main attraction to me was being able to pick what type of mission I felt like playing and go for it.  Relative to Void missions I was able to pick what ever mission I enjoyed best and still get decent awards, Prime Parts, Forma and a lump of credits. 

Now I am forced to pick from whatever mission types happen to have open 'Fissures' and then it's a mission inside of a mission, a big rush rush slam slam go go and it sucks.  Prime Parts belong in the Void.  Prime Parts belong in the Void, not on Earth, Mercury or anywhere else but the Void for that matter.  This system makes this game feel like a job.  It is not fun.  Find a way to let us play what missions we want and still get the corresponding parts. 

Put Prime back into the Void, keep the Relic and Trace system and make the 'Fissures' the only way in or out of the Void.

Star Chart looks Gorgeous - Thumbs Up! Nice Work on that one.

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The idea with the Relics is nice. But tehre are 2 areas that need improvement.

 

- The cap for Void Traces needs to be raised. It should be at least 200-300.

- The Fissure missions need to change a bit. Their timers are way to long, which creates the repeativeness feeling we allready had with the void. I suggest changing the timer on the missions down to 1h and have 2 missions per tier open at all times. This way the missions rotate more often giving players a better variaty.

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The new void fissures system really handicaps solo players. Besides the much-reported "not enough reactant" problem (which is still an issue- I just failed a T2 mission where regular Corpus seemed to be the main spawns, and Orokin barely spawned at all until the last 15 seconds), there's also the frustrating way that certain game modes don't work well with the new fissures systems, especially for solo players.

For example- the T2 mission I failed was a survival mission where the fissure spawned across the map from the room where the life support was dropping. How is a solo player supposed to hit life support AND police the fissure in vain hopes of getting enough reactant when the two mission critical goals are 5-6 tiles away from each other? Also, rescue missions where the fissure lies on the other side of the prison forces you to save the hostage first and then try to keep them alive for the full duration of the fissure, which is also a major handicap for solo players.

 

When we activate the void fissure, we should go into some sort of "void time" where regular enemies don't spawn (perhaps they're even frozen and invulnerable), and any mission-specific stuff (like life support, capture targets, and rescued hostages) is also frozen until the fissure is sealed. Then there can be more Orokin enemies spawning, and we'd still like a major bump to reactant drops. Once the fissure is sealed, the regular mission can resume. (Although, honestly, I'd much prefer if the regular mission was simply overwritten when the fissure is started up, since failing the fissure insta-fails the whole mission. Why can't beating the fissure likewise insta-win the mission?)

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(this is just a feedback for Void 2.0, not for SotR in general)

Farming parts became it extremely inefficient. Before SotR you could just go T4 defense or survival and easily grab multiple parts + Fusion cores/ Forma/ Orokin Cells.
Although most of these parts were (usually) useless because everyone already had them, we could still sell them for Ducats. Valuable golden little Ducats.
Let's do the math:
20 waves in defense or 20 minutes survival would yield in 3-4 parts. Different parts have different prices but let's just assume you get 3 parts each worth 20 Ducats. That's 60 Duc for 20 minutes of work you can easily do solo. But usually you survive longer than 20mins or defend more than 20 waves (if you're team is capable).

With the relic system you can only get 1 part. Regardless of the mission type or the relic. Sure you can choose between different rewards if your team brings more relics but it's still ONLY ONE PART. That's 50 ducats IF it's a rare part and IF you don't need it yourself...
On top of that you still have to successfully finish the mission. And that's another problem. It is close to impossible to beat some of the mission modes AND closing the fissure in time. And in case you didn't know, if you can't close it you instantly fail the mission.

Yesterday I was doing a solo fissure run on a corpus ship (sabotage or spy I think). As soon as I activated it the Stalker attacked. As a player with quite some experience this wasn't a problem. But then the nullifiers and bombards spawned. Still something I could handle. I ignored the Stalker and focused the corrupted. But then bursas came. Because you can't fight corrupted & Stalker without anyone turning on the alarms... I literally got knocked around the room and this was the first time I actually struggled in this game.
In the end I failed the mission. Now you could say I was unlucky or I just su*k. Maybe. But let's look at the whole picture. Even if I did close the fissure I would've only gotten 1 prime part and an insignificant amount of traces for all that trouble.

Ah yes, the traces. Is there any reason that they are hardcapped at 100? And investing all 100 traces to 'slightly' increase the 'chances'? And with chances I mean the blue bars showing the probability that you may or may not get another Forma... Why should we refine our relics when we have no actual values that show our odds and evens? Again, we have to rely on dataminers to give us some numbers.

Last thing I'll address is the alert-esque appearance of the fissures.
1) You always have to deal with another mission type that may make the whole trip unnecessary difficult regardless of the relic's tier. I'm talking about survival, defense & interception.
2) The node may be locked if you haven't advanced that far in the starchart and (let's be honest here) nobody plays every damn mission just for the fun of it.
3) If you don't want to play the fissure you have to wait till it's over. Simply because you forget the option to let us skip alerts/ invasions/ sorties/ syndicates.
4) The original void has been reduced to an Argon farmspot

Summary of problems:
- The quantity of prime parts
- The missions the fissures appear in
- Everything regarding the traces
- The way fissures are 'integrated' in the starchart


Now you may agree or disagree in some points or even in every point
But these are problems that I and other players need to bring up until we get a better solution

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I don't like the challenge at all. 

I mean generally I really like the concept of it, and what they try to achieve. I absolutely hated repeating defence mission after defence mission in the void.

But the result is a bit lacklustre in the creative department and user friendly department.

The challenge itself is kind of meh. Just many people spawning. On high levels hell just breaks through.

I kind of thought that you get teleported somewhere into the void and do some random mini version of a mission. Catching someone, rescuing someone out of there ect

Also traces and the way you obtain it is meh. The cap just makes you lose many traces, also higher level fissures, where the eximi are way harder, drop as little traces as low level fissures. I don't want to go with nekros all the time just to don't have the feeling of wasting a key cause I know I could have doubled it with him. Also soloing higher levels feel now less rewarding, cause no more credits or traces , nothing .

Then are the bugs of enemies spawning in objects ect.

I don't want the old void back, but I am sure I don't want this system to stay. There is so much potential.

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Biggest problem with the void fissures is this:

Reactant drops are incredibly terrible

So, you get what, I think its 2 minutes to collect 10 Reactant right? But Reactant only drops about once per every 30 enemies. How in the heck are you supposed get enough Reactant before the time runs out? Not only that, sometimes you see the Reactant spawn and it just flies up into space. Poof. Gone.

I just did 3 lith missions in a row and failed every fricking one of them simply because Reactant wasn't dropping. I was one shotting every enemy so it had nothing to do with my kill speed. Absolutely infuriating. I have never rage quit warframe until now. Its like you got a minute left, and the next 15 enemies don't drop Reactant, wtf! It isn't good when I kill enemies so fast that half the time I am sitting and waiting for them to spawn, and I still end up not getting enough reactant in time somehow.

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Also if you try to run fissures solo there is a big chance to fail do to low enemy spawn.(tested 10 times-failed 4 times-the rest was on the limit, a few seconds left)

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Too many posts to see if this has been mentioned before, but I have some suggestions for the Fissure reward selection screen.

If you're just jumping into PUG fissure runs, then there's a lot to think about when selecting the relic reward.  You usually only have one or two specific parts you want in mind.  If those aren't present then you have to think about what you already have in your entire prime part inventory, how many of each of those you may or may not have, which rewards are rare, and which ones are worth the most ducats.  And even if you get the part you want, you still have to consider whether any of the other rewards are still better.  And you have about ten seconds to think about all this and make a decision.

It would be helpful if the rewards screen included information like that for you.  For each of the four rewards:
 - How many of it do you already have, if you have any at all?
 - Is it the common, uncommon, or rare reward from that person's relic?
 - How many ducats is that item worth?  For BPs, how many ducats is the built item worth?

Without that information at hand it's basically a crapshoot.  Unless you have a spreadsheet in front of you and can search it really quick there's no way to make an informed decision.

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Another problem with the fissure is that when it appears on a void map, it becomes near impossible to tell which enemies are fissure enemies and which are native to the map, making it even more difficult to get reactant to drop.

 

24 minutes ago, Coach-Aprax said:

Also if you try to run fissures solo there is a big chance to fail do to low enemy spawn.(tested 10 times-failed 4 times-the rest was on the limit, a few seconds left)

The problem isn't the low spawn rate, it's because the new enemy AI causes the smaller troops to immediately run away and hide when they spawn, often times leaving the area where the fissure is. As long as they're alive, more enemies won't spawn to replace them.

 

14 hours ago, NinthAria said:

 seem to be aligned with whatever faction the mission type is normally home to, meaning they're treated as allies instead of enemies by the Corpus/Grineer/Infested. This struck me as a little strange, and more than a little frustrating when certain enemy combinations come into play (e.g. corrupted ancients with bursa moas). Not sure if it's intended but I figured I'd mention it.

Not only that, I've witnessed fissure enemies running to alarm panels in the stage to set them off as well.

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If you insist on keeping this awful fissure system, the missions with fissures should be like when the Grustag 3 appear.  Lotus tells you that there's a fissure and that the mission has changed and to ignore the previous objective. If you kill the Grustag 3,  the mission ends. If you close the fissure, the mission ends.

Add Ducat value and owned quantity of each item to the mission ending rewards screen.

Improve the drop rate or reactants and enemy spawn rates in solo missions.

Do not limit the number of traces that a player can hold at all. It's not fair to players.  If they want to farm 1000 or 100000, that should be their prerogative.  The nominal increas in drops that the top tier relics have are not that great that it would give players an advantage.

Change the squad screen to display the relic that each member has equipped.

Create a true LFG system where we have the option to look for a group using the same relic.  The new LFG should allow players to limit the members to MR or level/equipment score.

Can we get a vote to kick option? Please.  Reforming squads is a huge pain.  Don't mention griefing.  People just quit squads now all of the time.

Make it so that some missions give multiple prime parts.  It's not fair to new players.  Old players got multiple parts.  This dilution is a huge problem!  It's like we got focused all over again (Convergence is terrible.  People can hardly level their focus trees at all)

Do something about long survival, interception or defense missions.  These should still allow multiple rewards for struggling longer against higher level enemies. I would suggest that players be given the option to sacrificing all previously earned rewards in favor of obtaining higher percentage drops of rare items.

The bottom line is that you failed to decrease the grind and actually increased it.  I hope someone (DE Steve) steps in and fixes this HUGE problem.

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I have failed 4/6 void fissues T1 and 2's due to lack of spawns and or orb drops. I wouldnt mind failing a mission because it was too hard or i was not prepared, but to fail because the game simply doesnt allow skill/preparedness to influence the outcome is broken. I just sat there watching the timer as if doomed to fail before i started. I dont want to play a rigged game.

Im sure a fix is being worked on, but i just needed to vent a bit.

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It does need to be tweaked, but I'm enjoying the experience and frenzy so far!

One big bugger for me: a Nullifier spawned in Phobos INSIDE a building. It was rather entertaining to have to kill a nullifier inside solid walls bursting his bubble and then casting Hydroid's tentacles to get him (and hopefully the reactant spawned outside of the box)

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