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[DE]Taylor

Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

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On 8/1/2016 at 4:16 AM, Culaio said:

Having all archwing gear and having it maxed out and forma'd isnt really impressive, I also got everything maxed and forma'd, it didnt take me longer to get each archwing and weapon then 1-2 days and  I maxed out and forma'd stuff I was farming for next parts.

Of course random people didnt mention 6DoF, most of stuff I heard from random players i played with in archwing was: "archwing is bad and boring and that it should be removed from game since its waste of resources that could be used for main part of game: ground missions"

Even on forums most people were saying how bad archwing is and that its waste of resources, instead of talking about how to improve it, only few people on forums talked about how to improve it(including me) and among the people who talked about improving archwing all of them agreed that archwing needs 6DoF, do you know why people want it ? its because archwing players want space dog fights, for people who prefer to use primary weapon over melee in archwing combat is(was) VERY stationary, player was pretty much floating turret and enemies were also  fighting like that, combat where two sides float and shot each other isnt very engaging and is completly oposite of what warframe should be  about: very dynamic and agile combat.

Previous movement style is simply unfit for dog fights.

I do agree that archwing needs more of other type of content, like missions, enemies, weapons and so on, but first it needs to be more engaging to play and it needs to have better rewards, that never lose value(like relics) that could be got at comperable ration to ground missions, comperable ratio to excavation missions especially so people saw its "worth" to play archwing missions(people will always choose best/fastest way to farm for something).

 

Here is thread of my friend(who I befriended when we talked about how to improve archwing, he also agreed that we need 6DoF), about collecting and discussing archwing mission ideas:

and here is my thread for collecting and discussing ideas for archwing mechanics(I need to update first game since I created thread long before new updated to archwing movement):

Please join us with your ideas and join discussion about the ideas we collected :)

"Everyone"? So a couple of you guys wanted to change movement, and the rest of us just need to deal with it..  Well, the feedback since this change does not, in any way, support these claims..

 

The conversations I had, and saw in game, and can view in  multiple threads all over the internet, referred to:

1.) the difficulty obtaining weapon parts..

2.) The slow climb of ranking up..

 3.) the lack of maps, and mission types..

 

Im sure some people do want to mesh another game into this one, but it feels out of place personally.. Were playing a ninja, with a jetpack, not a multi-ton space ship.. It should not move, turn, slow down, etc. like a boat.. Its a small, light unit.. As it stands, its like trying to control a 50 foot yacht,in choppy seas! Nothing like a Jet ski, as it had previously... Even IF it didnt make me extremely sick, it would not feel proper for what it is..  The player is simply too smal, for it to warrant THIS much float, and looseness in its control...

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@Rizilliant

I can say same thing where were the people who are complaing now when "couple of you guys" were doing everything we could so  DE would finally fix problems of archwing and improve stuff that was lacking in archwing ? the answer was they did nothing, Also we werent just a "couple of you guys", people created threads asking for 6DoF(but not under 6DoF name, but stuff like full 3d movement) pretty regulary on the forums, I know that since I spend a LOT of time searching for threads with ideas how to improve archwing

on the forums there was only two types of people talking about archwing:

  • people who believed that archwing was waste of resources who were "asking"(demanding) DE to remove archwing from game because its "waste of resources that could be used to improve ground missions", there were a LOT more people complaining about archwing being in game then there is people complaining about 6DoF in this thread
  • Us, people who believed that archwing has potential to be something amazing, we did everything we could to to attract DE attention to archwing, including asking about archwing in devstreams, creating discussion threads about how to improve archwing to attract more people to play it.

Please explain to me why I didnt see most of you guys on the forums talking about how to improve archwing, if you guys care so much about archwing why you didnt say anything about how to improve it ? some of you guys should have found at least some of the threads asking for 6DoF movement and say that its bad idea. 

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I say again, I could handle 6dof, IF and only IF it was done properly. This isn't.

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TL;DR: give us the right tools to navigate in space (3D minimap) or change back to the old movement system.

Long version:

Good thing there's an 'Archwing Movement Underhaul Megathread'.

Orientation is tragic right now. Devs want to make the game more realistic? I have no idea what was the purpose of changing the movement system but it doesn't fit. If you want to do it the way you did it, make a new minimap system for Archwing.

Examples for a new minimap: Elite: Dangerous, Freelancer, Star Citizen. If you want to mess with 3D movement, provide the tools to make it simple - a 3D minimap so I actually know where all those enemies attack me from before I see them firing rockets at me from melee range. I have no idea where the drops are located now. A flat minimap won't make it easy and I can't wait 10 seconds for my Archwing to rotate back to normal position to figure out how to get that 100 Affinity or whatever. And I am not going to vent on affinity gain on Archwing mission. That's a whole other chapter...

 

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On 14/08/2016 at 2:00 AM, Geuax said:

all the time, have you tried jacking your FoV and sensitivity up to max?

That won't help, the movement sucks. That's it.

It will never be good, the way it is atm specially in corpus missions, Everytime I play in those there will be a point that my camera is upside down and I can't even locate myself through the minimap haha.

I hope DE makes some new changes to this new movement it seriously needs attention, Archwing is a nice gamemode they added but currently this is just a mode to make you spacesick. The end, :D

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The minimap is fixed to what used to be the horizontal plane. If you're even 60 degrees off that it flips and turns and is more of a hindrance than a help.

It really should "stick to" the player's centre line, but then they'd have to redo the mapping data to have data in 3 dimensions so I doubt that'd happen.

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I don't think the trench-type corpus map meshes well with the new archwing movement system. It could probably work better if the map was repurposed to be on rails, in the same vein as StarFox perhaps? Though that's mostly wishful thinking. I'm interested in seeing an on-rails archwing mission type, coexisting along the free-range missions we have currently.

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3 hours ago, Bl4zko said:

That won't help, the movement sucks. That's it.

It will never be good, the way it is atm specially in corpus missions, Everytime I play in those there will be a point that my camera is upside down and I can't even locate myself through the minimap haha.

I hope DE makes some new changes to this new movement it seriously needs attention, Archwing is a nice gamemode they added but currently this is just a mode to make you spacesick. The end, :D

i asked if you tried it. those 2 changes took me form a 80% failure rate on rush to  beating 3/3 with minute on the clock 75% of the time. a very large part of the sloppyness of new AW is artificial .   the FoV Changes the realtive size of the low sensativity aiming dead zone and  mouse look sensitivity gets you in and out of the dead zone faster

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12 hours ago, Geuax said:

i asked if you tried it. those 2 changes took me form a 80% failure rate on rush to  beating 3/3 with minute on the clock 75% of the time. a very large part of the sloppyness of new AW is artificial .   the FoV Changes the realtive size of the low sensativity aiming dead zone and  mouse look sensitivity gets you in and out of the dead zone faster

It still won't help that much at least for me in corpus missions, grineer missions are okay but corpus are painful :(

Good thing I only have 1 weapon left to level x'D

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On 8/14/2016 at 2:45 PM, Culaio said:

@Rizilliant

I can say same thing where were the people who are complaing now when "couple of you guys" were doing everything we could so  DE would finally fix problems of archwing and improve stuff that was lacking in archwing ? the answer was they did nothing, Also we werent just a "couple of you guys", people created threads asking for 6DoF(but not under 6DoF name, but stuff like full 3d movement) pretty regulary on the forums, I know that since I spend a LOT of time searching for threads with ideas how to improve archwing

on the forums there was only two types of people talking about archwing:

  • people who believed that archwing was waste of resources who were "asking"(demanding) DE to remove archwing from game because its "waste of resources that could be used to improve ground missions", there were a LOT more people complaining about archwing being in game then there is people complaining about 6DoF in this thread
  • Us, people who believed that archwing has potential to be something amazing, we did everything we could to to attract DE attention to archwing, including asking about archwing in devstreams, creating discussion threads about how to improve archwing to attract more people to play it.

Please explain to me why I didnt see most of you guys on the forums talking about how to improve archwing, if you guys care so much about archwing why you didnt say anything about how to improve it ? some of you guys should have found at least some of the threads asking for 6DoF movement and say that its bad idea. 

Having read the links you provided, and you being a large majority of the posts in them, i noticed little, to NO mention of movement overhauls.. A whole lot of talk about abilities, adding new weapons, turning Archwings into full on mech suits with shoulder mounted rocket launchers, and wing mounted this, and that.. Yet nothing about 6dof, or anything else..

 

So these "whole lot of people" you refer to, and the discussions you provided, added nothing to this discussion.. This topic, is the MOVEMENT overhaul megathread, and your threads offer suggestions to better/change weapons/abilities.. And again, you were a large majority of the posts in those threads.. 

 

On the current topic, with up to date feedback, and discussion, its pretty clear that the majority of us here, who are providing feedback, are extremely uncomfortable with this 6dof.. At the very least, do not like it in its current state for multiple reasons...

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I ran the JV raid today and it was so bad flying, i really don't understand how You could try this out and think it's reasonable to release. You fly into the nerve upside down and backwards it's just silly.

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21 hours ago, Rizilliant said:

Having read the links you provided, and you being a large majority of the posts in them, i noticed little, to NO mention of movement overhauls.. A whole lot of talk about abilities, adding new weapons, turning Archwings into full on mech suits with shoulder mounted rocket launchers, and wing mounted this, and that.. Yet nothing about 6dof, or anything else..

 

So these "whole lot of people" you refer to, and the discussions you provided, added nothing to this discussion.. This topic, is the MOVEMENT overhaul megathread, and your threads offer suggestions to better/change weapons/abilities.. And again, you were a large majority of the posts in those threads.. 

 

On the current topic, with up to date feedback, and discussion, its pretty clear that the majority of us here, who are providing feedback, are extremely uncomfortable with this 6dof.. At the very least, do not like it in its current state for multiple reasons...

if you searched properly in the threads then you would found other people talking about movement there, like "FelisImpurrator", he mentions people raporting on forums feeling   motion sickness from old movement system, trying to fit in-atmosphere motion into a space environment.

I writen a lot in those treads because  one thread was started by me and other by my friend, but like I mentioned there were other people who created threads on forums asking for 6DoF.

But you are right my thread is kinda old now, so here is someone else thread that while has some people against new movement(thread was started by someone who doesnt like new movement but people given their opinions about new movement both negative and positive) it also has many who either dont mind new movement or prefer it over old one:

 

 

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On 14/8/2016 at 10:34 AM, Rizilliant said:

 

For every 1 of you guys who are "fine" with the new system, there are multitudes of people who are not..

actually there were some polls at the begginign of 6dof and they showed most people were ok with the change

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I hope its the right place to write what i am about to.

I wasn't really into Archwing at the beginning, the only thing i did was the Quest to get one when we had the old movement and the Golem when Atlas was first released. Right now i wanted to get further with the Archwing, like doing different missions maybe trying JV. But the thing is, right now i feel nauseous every time i play archwing. It's impossible, everything feels like going circles. Sure its great that you get this feeling like you are in space with 0 gravity and such, but it's really giving me troubles playing Archwing. At best i can handle 1-2 missions and then i am off, not touching the PC for 30 mins till my dizziness pass. Never had motion sickness issues before.

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The new movement system feels slippery, and is outright nauseating.  I have played video games, all my life, but never once have I ever experienced motion sickness playing a video game.

Archwing to me personally, felt tacked on in the first place.  It wasn't an absolute drag to play, and I understood that is was shallow because it was a new system.  But instead of fixing how shallow the game mode was, reworking an already fine movement system was probably the wrong answer to spice things up.  None of the maps accommodate for the new movement, and that is the biggest sin right there.  Archwings have a ton of inertia while sprinting now, and I find myself plowing into walls even more than I did with the old movement system.  My additional comment would be the inability to roll, yaw or pitch.  If you are going to give us the movement of a plane, then we should be able to control our craft in such a way so that we are not flying upside down or sideways an entire mission.

My suggestion is honestly to roll back the system, to what was working already.  If it isn't broken, there isn't any reason to try and fix it.

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On 8/17/2016 at 8:14 AM, Culaio said:

if you searched properly in the threads then you would found other people talking about movement there, like "FelisImpurrator", he mentions people raporting on forums feeling   motion sickness from old movement system, trying to fit in-atmosphere motion into a space environment.

I writen a lot in those treads because  one thread was started by me and other by my friend, but like I mentioned there were other people who created threads on forums asking for 6DoF.

But you are right my thread is kinda old now, so here is someone else thread that while has some people against new movement(thread was started by someone who doesnt like new movement but people given their opinions about new movement both negative and positive) it also has many who either dont mind new movement or prefer it over old one:

 

 

If i "searched properly"?  I read the threads you provided... In them was little, to no mention of creating an all new movement system..


In your newest link(The one titled "please revert it back to the original flight mode), yes there are people who are happy with it.. I've never claimed there werent.. I said, and  it still seems, far more people dislilke it for multiple reasons (legitimate reasons).. Even several of the people who do like it in that thread, find fault with several aspects of it(including, but not limited to,  not having the control over the roll, and more)..

 

On 8/17/2016 at 8:52 AM, rockscl said:

actually there were some polls at the begginign of 6dof and they showed most people were ok with the change

This megathread is showing much different results..  Could you provide a link?  Not that it changes whats been/being shared here..

 

 And now the console crowd has begun experiencing SotR, and more feedback is rolling in..  Its been weeks, with some tweeks, and i am still unable to play Archwing.. Within seconds of beginning, i start to experience physical discomfort.. If i stay, and finish the mission, i have to stop playing the game for half an hour, or take a dramamine.. I enjoyed it before the patch.. I dont play Flight simulators, and sure dont appreciate the change to one here.. It doesnt fit, its uncomfortable, uncontrollable(yes, even open space is disorienting.. Cant figure out how to re orient myself, with no ground/walls), and trying to shoot anything now feels impossible.. Iv even switched to the Grattler to get some Aoe to alleviate some of this, but its no better.. My Velocitus is 100% unuseable with this movement.. Ive never played something this bad!

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2 hours ago, Rizilliant said:

owing much different results..  Could you provide a link?  Not that it changes whats been/being shared here..

http://www.strawpoll.me/10750637/r

this one is pre camera fix, didnt found more, those polls arent really meaningful, only give you an insight of the people in the forum at the time, the point is that not everyone hates the new system, however still dont understand why they are so determinated about not giving options sometimes, the current archwing mechanics vs the old ones have only 2 differences:

Inertia and Degrees of freedom.

Clearly a segment of players dont like nor need 6dof, the old system was in mechanically disadvantage compared to the new because if you went under or above an enemy you could not tracking across your limits of rotation, the new one allows that but also demands a different userm so, making this an option would not make the new sistem worst.

About the inertia, its just a matter of giving mods to switch inertia in exchange of a proper tradeoff.

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Is it just me, or are there plenty of others out there, that feels like the changes to Archwing controls are HORRIBLE? Compound that on top of the HORRENDOUS experience gain and the Archwing missions are even more of a nightmare than before. Just tried the new RUSH mode and couldn't even make it to ONE ship. The sheer amount of objects someone could run into normally is bad enough, but then addingredients the things that shock you and slow you down makes it next to impossible. Even with ano ITZAL pick. PLEASE FIX THIS!!!!!!! The controls even more so. I'd rather have the old controls (Pre-Specters Of the Rail) back. 

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8 hours ago, Rizilliant said:

If i "searched properly"?  I read the threads you provided... In them was little, to no mention of creating an all new movement system..


In your newest link(The one titled "please revert it back to the original flight mode), yes there are people who are happy with it.. I've never claimed there werent.. I said, and  it still seems, far more people dislilke it for multiple reasons (legitimate reasons).. Even several of the people who do like it in that thread, find fault with several aspects of it(including, but not limited to,  not having the control over the roll, and more)..

We did talk in that topic about movement, but we didnt use 6DoF movement to describe it, we called full 3d movement and stuff like that(English isnt my native language  so I didnt know proper name for this type of movement until recently), ut you are right we didnt talk about movement that much since it was only one of topics in the thread, people just shared their opinion there and moved to other stuff.

But like I mentioned before there was many other threads created by other people  asking for this type of movement, here is thread created by "PsychedelicSnake" who is community moderator who says himself that both he and many other people asked for this type of movement, or do you think he is lying ?

Its really great thread about all Archwing problems and how to fix them.

By the way here is old poll(from long  before changes to archwing movement) and in this poll you can see that in the past people overhelimgly voted for 6DoF:

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll200202xe65AD20e-7

The poll come from this thread:

 

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Just wanted to let you know, there was an alert up for credits and I needed some and decided to jump right in. It started with 4 players, but it was also an Archwing mission. I stopped to type "no archwing" and before I could send the mission was down to just me and one other. And then I left.

THIS is just how bad Archwing is now. Let that sink in for a second.

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I've just tried out the new Archwing movement system and I think I'm ready to throw up. It makes me feel sick. I don't know how it is for PC, but on Console, it's absolutely horrible. It doesn't help that the camera is so close to my Archwing either. The main issue I'm having is the camera position. There seems to be no way to reset it to normal. I'll be flying around and all of a suddenly I'm looking at things diagonally and it really makes me feel sick. The only way to fix this is by standing still and waiting for the camera to adjust itself. Turning is also so much more difficult and it feels like I have no control over my Archwing. I've found it next to impossible to fly through the tunnels in the JV without crashing into everything. I've never been a big fan of Archwing before but this new movement system makes me not want to play it at all. 

Bring back the old Archwing movement.

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I'm not sure if it's just me... But I find the Archwing movement though probably a little more realistic, feels completely disorientating in Space missions. The underwater still feels somewhat fine.

Just playing a inception mission, I found it hard to track enemy's especially on the radar, and was dying easily from low level enemy's with being unable to judge the distance, and find where they are shooting from behind.

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10 hours ago, (PS4)cbrstar said:

I'm not sure if it's just me... But I find the Archwing movement though probably a little more realistic, feels completely disorientating in Space missions. The underwater still feels somewhat fine.

Just playing a inception mission, I found it hard to track enemy's especially on the radar, and was dying easily from low level enemy's with being unable to judge the distance, and find where they are shooting from behind.

Underwater controls remain untouched.. They use the old system.. I wont be touching Archwing, until DE gets the message.. I CANT touch Archwing.. Im not taking Dramamine on a daily basis, to play a damn game mode!

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On 8/19/2016 at 2:23 AM, Culaio said:

We did talk in that topic about movement, but we didnt use 6DoF movement to describe it, we called full 3d movement and stuff like that(English isnt my native language  so I didnt know proper name for this type of movement until recently), ut you are right we didnt talk about movement that much since it was only one of topics in the thread, people just shared their opinion there and moved to other stuff.

But like I mentioned before there was many other threads created by other people  asking for this type of movement, here is thread created by "PsychedelicSnake" who is community moderator who says himself that both he and many other people asked for this type of movement, or do you think he is lying ?

Its really great thread about all Archwing problems and how to fix them.

By the way here is old poll(from long  before changes to archwing movement) and in this poll you can see that in the past people overhelimgly voted for 6DoF:

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll200202xe65AD20e-7

The poll come from this thread:

 

They appear to be wildly popular threads.. I see what you mean now........

 

Look, i get it. some people mentioned other games they liked, and wanted it in Archwing.. 5-10 people hardly constitute "LOTS of people", as you keep putting it.. But it was mentioned... I submit... I wont be touching AW, until something drastic is done(hell, at this point I would learn to deal with the horrible aiming/shooting/melee with the ridiculous, floaty controls, as long as the sickness/disorienting was gone.. It would make me an awful player in group, but i wouldnt be sick at least), and i can comfortably play, without sickness, OR disorientation!  And Im hardly alone...

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