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[DE]Taylor

Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

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So I tried the new-and-'improved' Archwing today.

I nearly became violently physically ill as a result of it.

I don't mean that as an exaggeration.  I'm not using hyperbole; this new control method, coupled with the zoomed-in camera and disorienting yaw/pitch/roll effects literally gave me motion-sickness.  I was playing with my girlfriend at the time, and I wasn't the only one.  She actually threw up as a result of it.

As it stands, I cannot play Archwing.  Physical discomfort aside, it's impossible for me to use the map to locate targets (a 2D plane representing mobile targets in 3D space doesn't work, especially when "up" is relative), and navigation in large, open spaces with multiple paths is a nightmare (get turned around during a fight and you might not realize you're going backwards until you start seeing familiar landmarks).

Pull the camera back out a bit, and re-implement the 'horizontal plane' that all archwings adhered to.  It's cool to simulate pitch/yaw/roll, but it's not necessary and it really hinders target acquisition and orienteering.  At the very least, give us a key to instantly center ourselves along the horizontal plane, so that we're not turned upside down and flying sideways unless we want to be.

On the bright side, I do appreciate the new Archwing crosshair.  Much more visible and easier to center targets into than the old one, IMO.

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8 hours ago, Trako said:

I was in a Corpus defense with two shuttles. It was unplayable, as I was tilting when i was holding still, and I was inverted until I was basically upside down. I would tilt randomly and with no indication why.

My problem also.

I had to stop playing for a bit because damn, my head is getting nauseous with that automatic tilting and I don't even have an idea if this is intentional or not.

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Just now, Arkvold said:

So I tried the new-and-'improved' Archwing today.

I nearly became violently physically ill as a result of it.

I don't mean that as an exaggeration.  I'm not using hyperbole; this new control method, coupled with the zoomed-in camera and disorienting yaw/pitch/roll effects literally gave me motion-sickness.  I was playing with my girlfriend at the time, and I wasn't the only one.  She actually threw up as a result of it.

As it stands, I cannot play Archwing.  Physical discomfort aside, it's impossible for me to use the map to locate targets (a 2D plane representing mobile targets in 3D space doesn't work, especially when "up" is relative), and navigation in large, open spaces with multiple paths is a nightmare (get turned around during a fight and you might not realize you're going backwards until you start seeing familiar landmarks).

Pull the camera back out a bit, and re-implement the 'horizontal plane' that all archwings adhered to.  It's cool to simulate pitch/yaw/roll, but it's not necessary and it really hinders target acquisition and orienteering.  At the very least, give us a key to instantly center ourselves along the horizontal plane, so that we're not turned upside down and flying sideways unless we want to be.

On the bright side, I do appreciate the new Archwing crosshair.  Much more visible and easier to center targets into than the old one, IMO.

I can pitch, I can yaw, with which key do you roll?

the only way I can roll is by using pitch then yaw and that is not a good thing

is there an easier way that I've missed?

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I just played a few round of the new archwing and... I have no idea why this was even added.  The camera is zoomed WAY too close.  It's no fun when 1/2 of my screen is taken up by my character.  The camera sensitivity also feels really high, a single flick of my mouse sends my aim almost 180 degrees.  This, combined with the more floaty inertia model makes navigating tight corridors nearly impossible without bumping into something.  The only thing that is good about this update is the ability to shoot while boosting, and that couldn't have needed a rework of this magnitude.  It's really hard to control and keep an idea of what's going on, especially when there's no designated roll buttons (which one of the 6 degrees of freedom that serve as the namesake of this control style.  Seriously, it's like a stick-shift car with no clutch).

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11 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

I can pitch, I can yaw, with which key do you roll?

the only way I can roll is by using pitch then yaw and that is not a good thing

is there an easier way that I've missed?

Nope, there's no designated "roll" key, and the game automatically centers you if you stop moving, but in a way that for some reason I find really nauseating.

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4 hours ago, Arkvold said:

So I tried the new-and-'improved' Archwing today.

I nearly became violently physically ill as a result of it.

I don't mean that as an exaggeration.  I'm not using hyperbole; this new control method, coupled with the zoomed-in camera and disorienting yaw/pitch/roll effects literally gave me motion-sickness.  I was playing with my girlfriend at the time, and I wasn't the only one.  She actually threw up as a result of it.

I've been reading in cars since I was about 8. I grew up going to King's Island in Ohio and riding roller coasters. I have never in my life ever had motion sickness. Yet, I tried going back in today to give this a second look and I had this happen as well. I had to outright abort mission least I blow chunks all over my desk. My fiancee tried to watch this gameplay and only lasted a couple of minutes before she also had to leave the room. This game mode has clearly been broken at this point and needs to be reverted.

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The new movementsystem gives me the freedom I always wanted, but here are some things that should have been delivered with the update.

Additions:
Archwing Minimap
The regular minimap doesn't work for archwing anymore. Not even the heightindicators for enemies are flipped when I'm upside down.
Tilt
We need those roll-movement buttons to actually give the feeling of freedom. When dodging straight up the warframe spins around it's own axis, so there's no reason to believe we couldn't do rolls.

Changes:
Auto-Tilt
Additionally the automatic adjustment is extremly bad. It makes me slightly motionsick. Please consider removing the automation completly and replace it with holding the action button to quickly return to the regular.
Inertia
Before you could make more exact flight maneuvers. With the new controls you fling yourself everywhere. Please tone down on the inertia so that we may regain some control.

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I don't like the new movement system.

My personal gripe: starting from the momentum thing implemented a while back which makes it hard to make a complete stop.
I bandaided this with itzal's second which halted movement, but now that's not an option because it cancels Penumbra and now it makes it even harder to cast Penumbra.

As for the main course: I suggest that there be an implementation of movement styles-the old and the new, like a check mark like the "Legacy Colors palette" in the options to lock onto the x-y axis, (z is up and down). On by default to prevent people with motion sickness from throwing up from starting archwing, and a check off for this system for those that like the freedom of direction. This will fulfill the needs/requirements of both types of players that preferred the old and the new systems.

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the new movement it feels slow and along with the nerf to melee charge range its now like completly nerfed like,
could use  a little more speed when not sprinting,

and also ui indicator maybe? like when my shift will lift me or when it will sprint or try seperate these 2?

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A notice for the animators:

All these swings and brandish with weapons prevent AW from sprinting. I understand you want to make eye-catching flashy anime-like animations, but if they interfere with movement, they should go. This is most prominent with Knux, which I hated to rank-up. Sometimes it can stuck in a loop where tenno tries to take out a gun and shoot, but rather unfolds Knux and twirls them if you don't allow the animation to finish.

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I haven't read the thread so my suggestions will probably be duplicates of what already is in there.

I'll try to keep it short.

Add proper 6DOF controls (roll)
Create a toggle between 6DOF and old movement (people are getting motion sickness)
Separate Archwing "boost" and "move up" from one keybind (space).

Reduce the "floaty" feel of flying.

When playing "on foot" you can be both fast and (mostly) precise.
It's fun.
Archwing lacks that.
You can either go "grandma speed" and fight precisely or you can go fast and bump into walls and lose momentum.
It's not a space sim, you don't need that much inertia (except when wanted, i.e. during sliding).

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I'm sorry guys, but the new archwing movement system is straight-up a downgrade from the old one.

The first thing you notice is that it's not as responsive as before; changing directions is a chore and the field of view is completely horrid. These two things combined make meleeing incredibly hard; while the new system could grow to become acceptable for tenno who use archguns only, for those who prefer to do their killing up close and personal it is completely unacceptable; because of the severely reduced field of view and the clunky direction-changing it's now near impossible to get that nice melee kill chains. You just can't see the next enemy and even if you did, you can't change direction to get to him fast enough and you end up hitting air (vacuum) for a few seconds which hurts the fun and also makes you look dumb.

The other problem is the model animations; the frame is just stiff as a board and doesn't move at all. Whether you're flying straight, in place in a circle, changing direction or rolling left/right, the frame is in the same position and it just looks bad. What really kills it for me is the "rolling left/right + shooting" situations (eg. holding "left" while shooting with mouse); your frame, archwing and gun are CLEARLY pointing in one direction while the bullets go in the other. One of the reviewers on Reddit said that the new Archwing system has an "indie game, work in progress" kind of feel to it and I tend to agree with that statement.

And as for the all-axes movement system; it's an ok idea but, as someone in this thread mentioned, warframe is not a flight simulation. While the old "2D + up/down" system clearly had some shortcomings, it was still way more intuitive, fluid and human-friendly than the new one. There's a reason why all spaceships in SF movies are facing the same way; it's what the world looks like for 99.99% of humanity during their lives and it's just plain more simple not to think about it. While the new all-axes movement is technically more true to what Archwinging™ would look like if it were real, I'm afraid it will do little to streamline the game or make it more simple and attractive for new or veteran players.

As a final note, I'd just like to add that the entire Archwing overhaul missed the point by completely failing to identify why the game mode didn't connect with players as well as you had hoped. While I salute the Syndicate weapon acquisition and purging of the much-hated Defense mode, I still don't think you understand why Archwing was met with a less than warm reception in the Tenno comunity. The reasons for it weren't the animations, movement system or even lack of rewards; all of those were fine and should have been left as is (were?). The main problem were the early missions; while the narrow hallways of corpus exterminates were a bore to do, they were nothing compared to one of two endless missions available for players. I'm talking of course about ERPO. The problem was it was made easy by reducing the number of enemies while it should have been made easy by reducing the power of enemies.

Let me elaborate; Warframe has always been about completely geonciding whatever happened to be unlucky enough to find itself in the same part of the universe you did. There's even a quote on the Tenno wiki page; "... even the most inexperienced Tenno can fight their way through hordes of basic foot soldiers alone." By reducing the number of enemies on Erpo, we weren't fighting through "hordes" of soldiers; it was more like 20...in 15 minutes. As a result most early Archwing experiences were boring and turned off players from the game mode completely. Caelus was reasonably fun since it had more action, but you had to endure countless of hours of Erpo to get there, and most people just didn't have the stomach for it. This resulted in Caelus being mostly abandoned since not a lot of people had access to it and finding a match was difficult (and even if you did manage to find it, at least 1 person was underequipped and would leave after the first wave).

The point is; the entire movement system overhaul was unnecessary. If the point of it was to make the game mode more interesting and appealing to players (and we will assume that it was), then a lot more would have been accomplished by doing a few simple things;

- double/triple/(whatever the average PC specs allow you) the number of enemies in archwing (especially on ERPO)

- tweak those enemies to have less health and attack damage

- add passive punch-through to archguns

- increase range on archmelee

 

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1 hour ago, Daemonicvs said:

 

The first thing you notice is that it's not as responsive as before; changing directions is a chore and the field of view is completely horrid. These two things combined make meleeing incredibly hard; while the new system could grow to become acceptable for tenno who use archguns only, for those who prefer to do their killing up close and personal it is completely unacceptable; because of the severely reduced field of view and the clunky direction-changing it's now near impossible to get that nice melee kill chains. You just can't see the next enemy and even if you did, you can't change direction to get to him fast enough and you end up hitting air (vacuum) for a few seconds which hurts the fun and also makes you look dumb.

 

I really agree with the melee issue you brought up.  

 

Listed are some more areas of improvement:

  • If placing multiple small enemies in the map, enable a method of tracking them from outside of FOV.  It's currently like piloting a gundam without a navigation/combat system. [the tiny red markers at the edge of the screen don't even come close to being functional or easily identifiable. They are lost against the background and effects. Even tracer lines from the marker to the top and bottom of the player model would be something.  A cone like effect, funneling your vision to the target.]

 

  • Make snap to melee attacks more consistent or give the player a way to know that they will connect with whatever melee strike.  It's been over a year, I still can't tell you how or when I will attack something.  Given the same enemy type and distance between you two, it could snap to....or not. 

 

  • Smooth out camera transitions.  Way too much snapping/altering. 

 

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1) The new system is much less responsive and suited for fast-paced combat, both in terms of control and camera. The camera is too close, and the simulation control is too cumbersome for what used to be an arcade style fast-paced space shooter mode.

2) New Archwing control scheme provides less information that the player needs to be effective in combat, both because of the camera and invalidation of the minimap.

3) It is now considerably more aesthetically unappealing. The original Archwing controls and animations were fast-paced and exciting to look at and play with, it reminded me of the trench run from Star Wars with an anime twist. The new system feels like I've been strapped in for Ludovico Technique and the screen only shows the very worst CGI Babylon 5 has to offer (in slow motion).

4) On the other hand, it was really nice to see weapon parts added into Syndicate rewards. This has been a common problem for many to get into Archwing I'd figure, given how to get the stuff you sort of needed for high-end Archwing you needed to play high-end Archwing (and a lot of it).

 

Personally I'd say it'd be better to just abandon the new control system and return to the old (fun!) arcade style system. The main problem for Archwing not having much attention is as others have said that it lacks content and connection to the main game. A good idea would be to make more missions involve using Archwing during it, whether in style of Jordas or a big personal wishlist feature of mine of us physically blasting our way into the space ships a lot of missions take place in instead of Ordis just ninjaing us into the ventilation system. Dropping down from low orbit to ground mission zones wouldn't hurt either.

Besides connection via gameplay, I think having some crossover with rewards and goals would also be handy. Toss some guaranteed high-value Fissures into Archwing missions and watch people start flocking into it even if they don't get all giddy about how it remind(ed) them of Star Wars like me.

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Here's my findings for the new archwing system:

  • Movement is really sluggish now and boosting/using afterburners can be really punishing to the player(got myself stuck in a couple walls already).
  • The Grineer Asteroid Tiles are hell for archwing now, I keep finding myself getting lost looking for the objectives/loot.
  • Some of my friends are getting motion sick due to the drifting and rolling of the camera(even gives me a headache now too).
  • New enemy eximus units are much appreciated as it makes the leveling slightly faster.
  • The Archwing Melee doesn't seem to lock to enemies anymore so I find myself forced to use my gun or swinging at nothing for awhile before i can hit something circling me(those pesky drones)
  • The Camera is way to close to me now and only gets closer if I use melee(it used to get further away) which can be disorientating when trying to complete objectives.

Ways I feel would improve the new archwing system:

  • Revert to the old archwing movement system but keep the new enemies and missions(easiest and preferred fix, but doubtful this will happen)
  • If we get stuck with new archwing movement increase brake speed, fix the camera, remove random drifting/rolling, mark objectives for asteroid tilesets at all ranges and have it hang on the edges of the screen like enemy unit locations do, correct the tracking on archwing melee, give us full roll control and apply a 3-Dimensional Map style or an aircraft HUD to it so we can easily locate objectives. (Roll could be controled with A and D and strafing could be A and D while aiming down sights)(I would still rather have the old system back)

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On 2016-07-08 at 8:51 PM, IronWolfKnight said:

What I dislike about Archwing right now is that the camera perspective has been arbitrarily zoomed in which not only makes it hard to see ...

 

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I just did the alert on Caelus about 5 minutes ago, and I can sum up the new movement changes in one word

Awful

My complaints are pretty much the same as most of the other players here. Its highly disorienting, the camera is way too close, and it overall feels slower. I liked the feel of Archwing Movement 1.0 much better because of its speed, responsiveness, and ability to see the enemies.

6 degrees of freedom was supposed to increase our ability to control our Archwings, but without the ability to control the 6DoF itself accurately, how does it help? It doesn't from what I can tell, it just made players frustrated, ill, or both. I fall in "frustrated"

When i was doing the alert, I could not see half the enemies coming towards me, constantly trying to figure out which direction I'm being attacked and where the enemy thats contesting the point is, an experience I wish not to repeat.

Before this change, I was in that small pocket of people that actually liked Archwing, but now I can't stand it. AW Movement 2.0 needs to be completely scrapped and started again from square one, or just go back to AW M 1.0 because there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.

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11 hours ago, Arkvold said:

So I tried the new-and-'improved' Archwing today.

I nearly became violently physically ill as a result of it.

I don't mean that as an exaggeration.  I'm not using hyperbole; this new control method, coupled with the zoomed-in camera and disorienting yaw/pitch/roll effects literally gave me motion-sickness.  I was playing with my girlfriend at the time, and I wasn't the only one.  She actually threw up as a result of it.

As it stands, I cannot play Archwing. , and navigation in large, open spaces with multiple paths is a nightmare (get turned around during a fight and you might not realize you're going backwards until you start seeing familiar landmarks).

 

Same i got huge motion sickness after Archwing Movement rework. Couldnt pass more than 1 round of caleus. My head is still spinning after 10 minutes. 

Maybe its looks nice , im not a fan about it , but its not playable for me.

Also regular bug in game when youre "standing" (sometimes when you move), archwing spins around , which only multiplies my motion sickens , which i dont have it when i move by any transport while reading a book or anything.

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the new movment are realist but make confuse, can we got an option in order to stray straight like before ?

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People say here that they should change back the movement and being able to shot while sprinting and that no one asked for it but thats not true a LOT of people(including me) asked for both this movement type and being able to shot while sprinting, I completly agree that archwing update had a lot of problems but this movement style and spring combat are NEEDED if we want archwing to be interesting and attract more players to it. hoveing in space and shoting each other, gets boring very quick and so is mashing melee attack button, archwing needs dogfights and those things are needed for it.

 

I Know that motion sickness is a big problem currently for many players but there are space combat sims that dont have this problem so I believe that DE can fix this problem in archwing. 

My and few other guys had idea how to make archwing enjoyable for both who prefer old movement and combat and new:

"Personally I would want archwing to be mix of zone of the enders and strike suit zero(well its not best example since strike suit zero is already kinda like mix between space combat sim and zone of the enders like game), I would want for combat to change depending if we are "floating" or "sprinting", "floating" combat would be pretty  similar to current(this post was made a while ago before update so its talking about old movement and combat) combat but more dynamic like in zone of the enders while in "sprinting" combat would be closer to space combat sims, we would shot toward direction we are flying, we wouldnt be able to strafe but in return we would have full 3d movement so we could do loops and stuff.

Reason why I would want two modes of combat is because when I fly through corridors of corpus ship and enemies grouped together in front of me I shouldnt be forced to stop to fight them, I should be able to shot them when flying forward also current type of combat wouldnt fit in trench run type missions that many people(including me) are asking for."

combat in zone of the enders:

 

and combat in strike suit zero:

You can see in it dual mode combat.

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My feelings about the new archwing gameplay : A catastrophy ! No more speed feeling, no more rush through the map for lightning attacks. Strange camera movements.

I really don't understand how they could change to something so soft and slow... I call this euthanasia...

The only good thing to me : The new reticle.

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I'm currently fiddling around, how to get my controls right and noticed sth:

The boost is actually not bound to "Jump" but to "Move up".

I want my WASD to Move Up/Left/Down/Right and still have the Boost on my Spacebar. It's btw pretty annoying to have 3 different buttons for velocity, you have to press at the same time. I'd prefer sth. like hold or tap to accelerate.

In a perfect world there would also be a hold/release inertia stabilizer button, so you can do really fancy stuff :).

Edit: Just realized, normal game mode and archwing share the same keybind table. So can't even use custom archwing controls, damn.

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You have designed a hybrid between Zone of the Enders 2 (ZoE2) and Strike Suit Zero - Directors Cut (SSZ). And it suffers. With the original combat system you were very close to Zone of the Enders, but missing many critical elements, most notably a lock-on system to help anchor movement.

The problems with Archwing 1.0 were not really its combat and movement system. As ZoE and ZoE2 shows that a non-ground Hack'n'Slash can work very well. And if you look at the feedback on Archwing the top criticisms was "boring". Which is because the environments were barren of enemies, rather inactive, and the rewards (mods, fusion cores, resources, keys, affinity, etc) were tepid at best. Archwing 6-axis (as I will call it instead of 2.0) doesn't fix any of these problems. Rewards are still sparse, and the combat environment is only more engaging due to it being view-able at different angles, when it isn't causing people to barf from simulation/motion sickness.

There are two issues that need to be covered first.

  1. Split the Control Binds! This is priority task #1, the controls for Archwing need to be working off a totally different configuration file from the base Warframe. The different requirements between a Space Sim and a ground locked Hack'n'Slash/Shooter are too vast. This was one of the big things holding Archwing 1.0 back.
  2. Roll Control! Follow right after splitting the controls

Now lets understand what's wrong Archwing 6-axis (Aw6A) as a free flying Space Sim. To do that we need to talk about several aspects including the 2.5 movement modes, which I will call: Platform, Fighter, and Boost Fighter.

  • Platform is what the Archwing defaults to, without holding sprint. This is the precise and slow local movement. You act sort of like a floating turret, bobbing about generally in the galactic void. This is similar to the base states in ZoE2 and the Strike Mode in SSZ, but with some major differences that make Platform mode inferior.
    • You move like a slug. This is a problem through out Aw6A, the requirement to build moment, and its conservation, make any changes in direction feel unresponsive. Neither ZoE2 or SSZ have momentum building in their equivalent states. Sudden physics defying changes of direction are excused by either visible "boosts" or swing of the "thrusters" into the correct direction.
    • Colonoscopy Camera. While its not quite up that bad, being at about small-of-the-back or neck height, the camera is way too close. The majority of one side of the screen is blocked by the Archwing. Which is compounded by the super tight Field of View (FoV). Neither ZoE2 or SSZ have this issue, keeping the camera back a respectful distance, and keeping a decently wide FoV so that player can keep track of the battlefield.
    • Orientation. While ZoE2 and SSZ are different (ZoE2 keeping your camera mostly aligned to notional Up/Down, SSZ being full space sim), both use Lock-On system to help orient the player towards objectives. Which is critical for space games. Aw6A has no method of Orientation, even the mini-map is currently broken and was only ever 2D, which doesn't work very well in a fully 3D space.
      • Now Warframe doesn't have a lot of enemies on screen in Archwing currently (part of what made Archwing boring) so the need for a Lock-On system didn't seem as bad. However to really make Archwing interesting you need to increase the complexity, number, and diversity of enemies. Which will require a lock-on system. This does not need to be a hard camera lock like in ZoE2, but for Platform mode it would help.

Movement in Platform mode needs to be crisp, the camera pulled way back, and a better system for Lock-On and Orientation implemented. The first two issues are easier. Restore the Archwing 1.0 camera and movement (no momentum building) for this mode. The Orientation issue can actually take a leaf from the ZoE2, and use a similar Ring system around the Archwing. The circle immediately gives a stable planar axis a player can align to, using relative size of the target icon for distance (please watch linked video for ZoE2 and watch that rings behavior). ZoE2 normally didn't have more than 6 enemies on screen at once, so the Rings didn't get very complex. For Aw6A a combination of directional arrows/icons (currently in Aw6A, and how SSZ handles things) and the Ring would work. You save the Ring for Locked-On targets and major objective markers.

Now lets move on to the Fighter mode. This is where you leave ZoE2 behind, as it's "sprinting" mode is mainly for gap closing to the next pack of enemies.

  • Fighter
    • Flying on Ice. While dealing with built up momentum is an important aspect of realism space sims, it's pure death to anything following the X-wing vs. TIE Fighter games. Games like X series (X3: Runion as an example), would fall in that heading. The reason why it's death, is because most arcadey space sims (like X-wing or SSZ) are not space sims. What they are replicating is Star War's transposition of World War 1 and 2 movie dog fights into outer space. Generally inertia is ignored and "fighters" can change directions with banking. While its cool that you're trying to give a nod to realism, it needs to go. Warframe is the "rule of cool" and "cool" space fighter games don't fly on ice.
    • Direction and Speed control. Now getting rid of the inertia will help with this but it is important to bring up. Since Aw6A uses WASD for both Speed and direction control you have a very binary state in this mode. Most flight sims offer some form of throttle. In more modern sims this is bound to W & S, with Roll assigned to A & D. While the Mouse controls Pitch and Yaw. There is no Free Aiming. You fly basically in the direction you point your ships noise. Using W & S to change speed. Aw6A has no speed control. Which means you have no really way of dealing with the Flying on Ice by slowing down fractionally to get control back. Worse, you don't really fly in the direction you're mouse is pointing. You also don't normally get a "Up/Down" nudger the way Aw6A has in the double bind on Jump and Crouch.
  • Boost Fighter. This the only method of speed control by holding down both sprint and boost buttons. Which makes me feel like I'm playing with a claw grip on my keyboard. If I didn't have a MMO mouse with bind-able side buttons aplenty I'd be really put out by this.

This is were SSZ is flat out better than Aw6A. Its dual mode, Fighter and Strike, system allows it to differentiate between fine control and aiming, and being a full fledged Arcade Space Sim. Players bounce back and forth between Fighter and Strike mode. And it is a toggle. Which is something Archwing could be doing. Toggle between the Hack'n'Slash control style of Zone of Enders 2, and the Flight mode Strike Suit Zero.

This of course means more control binds and a more thoughtful layout which will be the subject of my next post.

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