Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

[Numerikuu]

It's unplayable =/ everyone I know that plays has had to stop playing Archwing missions due to either the extreme nausea or headaches it induces.

Revert back to the old controls DE. Or at least give us the option.

[Numerikuu]

Camera/roll on Archwing was a mistake.

[DarkXenocide]

I used to like Archwing a lot actually. Might have been on of the few players who did considering the amount of Archwing hate I was seeing on forum and the chat.

However, the new system of control? I HATE.  Control are impossible. Missions I used to be able to complete alone or with a friend I am impossible or borderline incapable of completing them with a full crew. It is impossible to keep it on level and after doing a mission twice (for a Nitain alert) I started having an headache with all the spinning.

Melee also has no weight/impact behind it now. The camera is so close when you melee you have no freaking idea what is going on and there seem to be a knockback on our own frame everytime we hit making melee relatively useless compared to before.

I have no idea why people at DE thought this would be a good idea but the new Archwings system is the worst part of Warframe. and by FAR now. Unless I need to for a quest I will never run an Archwing mission again and that is sad because I used to really like it.

Edited July 18, 2016 by DarkXenocide

[Forcereborn]

I got used to the new Archwing movements in all missions... at least, I thought so. Today there have been 2 alerts for Nitain on Salacia (Neptune) and both were Archwing Defense, the mode that theoretically was abolished, but apparently not from alerts. With a "static" and closed map like that, I got sick as well. If you don't want to reduce or somehow disable the spinning, at least remove Archwing Defense completely, alerts included.

[FlareFluffsune]

I can't even play archwing missions any more, I just cannot target anything with my grattler or velocitus any more BECAUSE YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO AIM TO USE THESE GUNS! is there a reason as to why if I right-click aim I still fly all over the place my aim being completely thrown off and my camera flying all over the place, can you explain why there is even a god damned aim button if you cannot even aim any more, aiming should act as it did before you destroyed this xcbv asdnfvrb]gbuo

 

 sf rf

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Edited July 18, 2016 by FlareFluffsune
updating with video

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

2 hours ago, Supernoobian said:

Long story short: This change to archwing, which was intended to increase the number of people playing archwing missions.

Oh, is that what they said?  I was wondering why they did it at all.  I'd really like to see DE Scott run an AW mission now.

The old idiom still applies, "If it's not broken, don't *fix it".  They should reverse this change immediately.

[Recaiden]

First, thank you for the six-degrees flight model.   Archwing has needed that since day 1.  Free space missions feel better than ever.

There are a lot of problems.  Some old, some new.

1. The minimap is useless in this flight model.  I heard in Prime Time that they're working on a 3D-friendly minimap for archwing.  I hope that comes along well.  Honestly, I would rather not have a minimap at all in grineer archwing missions; it's just a distraction.
2. Rolling.  There are a lot of okay way to do this, but the current model is broken.  Turn off auto-rolling to original orientation. You can add a keybinding that does it.  You can have a toggle to auto-roll after X seconds.  You can give us keybindings that let us roll manually. But please give us a way out of this dizzying mess.
3. Camera position.  It's been said a hundred times, but it needs to be said again.  Camera too close to archwing.  Cannot see anything.  When I melee-attack an Ogma, my camera gets stuck inside the thing until I destroy it.  The simplest fix would be to always use the camera you get while Sprinting.  It's nice.  It shows off the archwing.  It matches the flight model.  There are other ways to fix this too, but it has to change if you want people to enjoy this mode.  We like seeing our archwings, but we'd like to be able to see the level too.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Recaiden

[EinheriarJudith]

We definitely need some controlls added.

Afterburner: cannot remap (no seperate keybinding). i was running into the issue of boosting and trying to hit space to move up and instead afterburning into a wall.

Roll: cannot map. ive spent alot of time playing Strike Suit Zero and Star Conflict so im used to Q and E to roll left and right and i catch myself sometimes trying to use them to roll when i cant.

i feel like booster should be moved to forward Thrust which is W (while decreasing thrust speed a bit to warrent use of afterburner) and afterburner to shift and give us roll left and right keymapping.

 

[GaleSquid]

I love the Archwing movement and I think this is a move in the right direction for the game mode, but it still has problems. The auto-orientation is irritating for one. I don't care if I'm upside down or not, it's upright to me and I've been unable to find a way to turn it off. Camera view is waaaay too close and we can't do proper rolls and such as you would be able to with a real spacecraft. I want it to be even more like operating an aircraft/spacecraft but with the fluidity and freedom of movement Warframes have.

[HeATMaN451]

Seems I always have something to say when it comes to Archwing, and with the new update and enough fooling around in free space, it seems like DE's taking some steps in..some directions.  Every direction.

First off, no, I'm not saying Archwing controls should be reverted, because at this point any attention to Archwing is good attention.  The current system works ok when in open space environments, it feels great to fly on grineer exterminate missions buzzing enemies in stride, living out a previously unknown dream to be a space-borne A-10 Warthog.  The ability to move at boost speed and fire your weapon feels great, and being able to not have awkward polar ends of camera stopping is nice in free space.  The only problem in this environment, really, is when the radar doesn't know how to tell you what direction the next batch of enemies are in, but it's made obsolete by the enemy marker ring on the HUD.

The most mind-blowing and exciting thing for me in terms of Archwing was the addition of Archwing weapon parts to the Factions, honestly.  (Even though I already suffered through the grind to make them pre-update)

The real problem comes with the more confined "trench run" missions, which I'm sure the majority of the playerbase knows where I'm coming from.  Trying to navigate these spaces can range from serviceable to frustrating, and I feel like this is due to the mission space itself.  The environment was designed inherently to be "horizontal", both in aesthetic and gameplay, which causes a lot of the nauseating feelings of feeling off balance. I found it funny reading the patch notes when the big update was downloading that the submersible controls retained the old control style, because I assumed this was because of the tight spaces and design of those submersible spaces, one that is more or less shared with the corpus ship tileset

Being able to traverse the Corpus trench run tileset the way it was designed to be traversed seems like the way to do it.  Even the enemies feel the same way, as their eternally "upright" stature seems to proclaim.  Flying (or sliding) through these tilesets typically ends up with slamming into every wall and environmental hazard at best, and insta-death via rolling into a wall at worst.  Mobile defense turns into a fight with the camera as you go from shooting enemies upright to sideways every time you're forced to reacquire a target that's behind you or to your sides.

TL;DR

Why retain the old controls in submersible tilesets for Archwing and not corpus ship tilesets, which are inherently the same?

Don't get me wrong, you can make it work.  In the Rush mission I've managed to get to the end with a Hyperion Thruster'd Itzal with time to spare for scanning the transport ships and their shield drones (You don't get codex for them, it turns out...)  I enjoy Archwing in a different way now, in fact Warframe is open and in mission in the background as I type out this rant.  But I really struggle to understand the reasoning for applying these controls to this environment.  Before, Archwing felt like an enabling factor to my abilities as a space ninja: nimble, space-faring death attached to a pair of mecha wings.  Now it feels like I'm being handicapped, everything feels less snappy and more slippery.  Having it feel heavy is fine, but when it's combined with the camera controls and the current physics of Archwing, it just turns it into unresponsive.

What do I propose?

1.) Add a toggle to switch control type (a la Starfox with "All-range mode" and "Corridor Mode") perhaps double tapping roll or an option in the gear menu, allowing you to switch from the new control style to the old and vice-versa.  Maybe have this represented by the orientation of the Archwing wings?

2.) Have a dedicated button to "righting" yourself to be horizontal with the world, and quickly.

All in all, my opinion on Archwing remains the same.  It isn't bad, it just doesn't feel finished, and I'm sure DE shares this mentality.  It still hasn't met the expectations of being a whole new and exciting way to play Warframe - but I'm not ready to give up on it.  Please don't mothball Archwing again!

 

(Supplementary rant'age edit!)

-Allow me to pull the FOV a bit further back in Archwing, I'm one of those folks who enjoy having my FOV at ludicrous amounts.

-Add a toggle for auto-swapping weapons when out of ammo, this gets rather frustrating with low-capacity arch-guns when you're forced to pull out a melee weapon after unwittingly emptying your weapon.

-If you're planning on going the way you're going with Archwing controls, more space ship than space ninja, go all the way.  Let me take my Archwing into the garage and fine tune the handling.  Give each Archwing it's own behavior, make Itzal nimble and snappy, make Elytron a space juggernaut, heavy and powerful.

Edited July 18, 2016 by HeATMaN451
More ranting.

[PaintedWolf]

Personally, I hate certain aspects of this. Others make it more interesting and fun. Here are my main complaints though.

 

Remember when you guys did that Volt rework and made it so that Speed had the FOV change decreased due to motion sickness complaints? I'd like to know exactly why you thought it would be a good idea to put that exact same old Volt-like aspect into Archwing boost. Not only this, but there are so many other aspects that make this mode a game of motion sickness. Here is my problem with each:

1.) Making yourself able to rotate 360 degrees in any direction isn't really an issue. That is actually really cool, but this auto rotation when still is just completely sickening. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this problem. At one point I had to apologize to a friend I was running with because the only way I could deal with the rotation was to look away from the screen and hope I didn't run out of energy while having Penumbra active and Itzal's 3 spammed. If I kept looking at the screen with it rotating like that, I would have had to walk away from the computer entirely. I suggest adding an auto-level hotkey in the controls that is solely for Archwing so that you hit a button and it rights you immediately. I think this would reduce the motion sickness from this auto rotation.

2.) I don't have an issue with the archwing boost. It's cool and can be rather funny if you accidentally boost into a wall. However, I do not understand why you thought making the FOV change for said boost like Volt's old Speed boost would be a good idea. I mean, you did change it due to motion sickness complaints. As stated before though, I have no issue with this personally. It's just I don't understand why you would do the exact thing you changed about a frame to an Archwing.

3.) The Archwing is incredibly close to the camera. It has such an unnatural feel that makes it hard to do anything as well as you should be able to. There's not much else to say other than please move the camera back a bit.

4.) I mentioned the boost above and there's more to it than just FOV change. I went to hit jump to move up rather than boost and boosted straight into a wall, which nearly killed me. We need more Archwing controls. I can't really say much more than this.

 

Other than that, I think Archwing is getting a lot of well-needed attention. It's a cool aspect of the game and I would enjoy seeing it continue to grow. However, the above issues are ones I think can prevent a nice amount of players from actually enjoying - or even playing - this unless they absolutely have to. Being one of those players, I'd say that fixing the auto-rotation would be the best option to go after first. I'd enjoy it if that feature either had an off switch, toggle, etc. Archwing is fun, but I don't want to get sick from it.

 

The update is awesome though. :D

Edited July 18, 2016 by PaintedWolf

[cittran]

*gets behind this set of ideas*

[FrackingBiscuit]

HeATMaN451 is not a MaN.  He is a GoD.  HeATGoD451.

In all seriousness, I agree with every single point you make.  Your post is well-articulated and well-reasoned and I hope that the devs get a chance to read it, because it concisely sums up how most people are feeling about Archwing right now.

[SpadaNgDios]

I'm glad they implemented 6 degrees of freedom for Archwing, as well as the ability to shoot and sprint at the same time. This truly gives it a proper space flight feel to this game mode.
However it is not working the same way they first previewed it on the DevStream.
On the DevStream, the reticule moved around the screen just like most space shooters, instead it is fixed to the center of the screen. I hope they add this feature in the near future.

Other changes I wish to see - 

:-SEPERATE FOV OPTIONS FOR ARCHWING-:
Archwing should provide independant Field Of View options from the Normal game, and it there should be a separate slider option for normal FOV and zoomed FOV, for complete customizability.
I know there are some players who like to have the camera close, but there are others like myself who prefer to have it further back maximising the view of my surroundings.
And having the camera in a fixed position when sprinting and not sprinting would allow for better maneuverability as the Arcwing isn't moving around your screen when trying to navigate tight areas. 

:-THE ABILITY TO ROLL-:
Currently, moving your mouse horizontally changes the Yaw, but so does the A and D key on the keyboard. They should have the ability to roll using the A and D key when Sprinting, but revert to Strafing when not holding down Sprint. I believe this would translate as moving the Left Thumbstick left to right on a controller. This would allow you to correct your orientation manually, which is beneficial in tight Corpus Tile set maps.

:-QUICK BRAKES-:
There would also be better control if the Archwing slowed down drastically or come to an almost complete stop when engaged in a sprint once the player holds Crouch(Ctrl Key), kind of like Air Brakes. This would allow precise movement for Corpus Tile sets with the ability to quickly speed up again once Crouch is depressed. The player would only proceed to move downwards once the sprinting phase has ended.

:-WALL HOP-:
Parkour in Space
The Warframe should wall hop with the Archwing(Like in the normal game) when they get too close along the wall whilst Sprinting; which would make Archwing totally Space Ninja. The only time whey would bump and have the momentary stun is when they are using Turbo(Space Bar) and collide with an object. This would allow the smooth movements of Parkour 2.0 from the normal game to be implemented in Archwing as well as looking badass.

:-FASTER ORIENTATION CORRECTION-:
I understand Archwing is in space and there is no true Up or Down. However tilesets such as the Corpus Trench Run ships do have a fixed up and down.
The Archwing should constantly re-orient itself to the 3D maps Y axis to allow better navigation through a close quarter tile, and do it in a quicker fashion.  The Archwing should correct it's orientation quickly when using the key or button that is bound to USE or INTERACT, since it is hardly used in this game mode(except when reviving a fallen ally).

If you want to experience a great example of a high speed flight game with very good trench run mechanics, check out Strike Vector, its F2P, or just look at the PC gameplays on YouTube. Strike Vector ships have the ability to move accurately at high speeds, even between the tightest gaps whilst engaged in combat. This is the kind of thing I am hoping for Archwing.

Edited July 19, 2016 by SpadaNgDios
says "hello" :)

[Rombus6]

DE just bring back the old archwing movement system 

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, SpadaNgDios said:

:-FASTER ORIENTATION CORRECTION-:
I understand Archwing is in space and there is no true Up or Down. However tilesets such as the Corpus Trench Run ships do have a fixed up and down.
The Archwing should constantly re-orient itself to the 3D maps Y axis to allow better navigation through a close quarter tile. 

On this subject, I'd like a snap-reorient button, like in the Star Wars: Starfighter series when you were flying over a planet

[Gelkor]

3 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

On this subject, I'd like a snap-reorient button, like in the Star Wars: Starfighter series when you were flying over a planet

I was thinking about this earlier, currently, the jump/up button becomes the boost button when sprinting, what if the crouch/down button became the orient button when sprinting?

[SpadaNgDios]

3 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

I was thinking about this earlier, currently, the jump/up button becomes the boost button when sprinting, what if the crouch/down button became the orient button when sprinting?

This actually gives me an Idea. May need to edit my original post. 
I'd rather have crouch be a quick air brake when in sprint due to how easily accessible it is based on your hand position. However, your USE or INTERACT key should be a quick orientation correct button since it is hardly used in this game mode(except when reviving). I believe this would be fine on a controller setup since, from my understanding, they are bound to the same key.

[Gelkor]

1 minute ago, SpadaNgDios said:

This actually gives me an Idea. May need to edit my original post. 
I'd rather have crouch be a quick air brake when in sprint due to how easily accessible it is based on your hand position. However, your USE or INTERACT key should be a quick orientation correct button since it is hardly used in this game mode(except when reviving). I believe this would be fine on a controller setup since, from my understanding, they are bound to the same key.

Currently the back key plus spacebar works fairly well as a rapid air brake

[SulafateDex]

My thought on the archwing overhaul are simple its pretty bad in its current state. The camera is too close and the movement is sluggish and disorienting.I prefer the old system feels tons better the new system seem too geared towards the open space battles and it still has a few problems, but it might just be that i haven't played it enough to get use to it. Yet in the smaller map such as the corpus missions in with their small corridors and sharp turns its almost impossible to move i played a rush mission only to get stuck on ever noock and cranny and failed the mission where as before the change where i felt i had far more control over my archwing was able to fly through and only bump on 2-3 things a mission. I feel like this new system can be amazing and cool with some well suited changes but what i want the most is the option to chose which flight mode i feel more comfortable with the new system is a little goofy and can be good with changes but i prefer the old system it just felt better and with the old system i was really looking forward to archwing racing. but i feel like racing is almost impossible with this new system especially with maps like the corpus rush with the option to choose will help the who just aren't comfortable with the system or the motion sickness it might not seem super different from the normal game but the old system was smooth and fluid much like the normal game. Thus i feel an option to choose would be a optimal solution to solving the problem plus improving the old system slightly would not hurt but this massive overhaul has problems that need to be addressed. 

[SpadaNgDios]

9 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Currently the back key plus spacebar works fairly well as a rapid air brake

I just tested that, not sure If I'm doing it correctly, but it seems to do a spin and then a thrust(Turbo Boost) towards the camera rather than stopping. 
I also found that the Back key does work as an Air Brake, but it does not respond quick enough for you to be agile within tight areas.

[Gelkor]

Just now, SpadaNgDios said:

I just tested that, not sure If I'm doing it correctly, but it seems to do a spin and then a thrust(Turbo Boost) towards the camera rather than stopping. 
I also found that the Back key does work as an Air Brake, but it does not respond quick enough for you to be agile within tight areas.

Take your pinky off the shift key when  you do it, aiming also arrests momentum.

[Meneliki]

I prefer the new Arcwhing, tbh. Loving the freedom from planar lock. True 6DoF is really nice. They just need to remove the 'auto-roll-correct' and give it to us on a key. Then, zoom the camera out a bit, and fix the barf-cam you get when aiming (the camera rubber-bands in a way it didn't before) and we'd be good to go!

(and more modes/nodes/general content)

[SpadaNgDios]

10 minutes ago, Gelkor said:

Take your pinky off the shift key when  you do it, aiming also arrests momentum.

Ah, that does work. Thanks for that. 
It appears you can still achieve quick brake with just the CTRL key and not have to use the SPACE bar.

Although in my description, I wanted it to works whilst keeping your pinky on the SHIFT key.

Edited July 19, 2016 by SpadaNgDios

[WhiteMarker]

5 minutes ago, Meneliki said:

I prefer the new Arcwhing, tbh. Loving the freedom from planar lock. True 6DoF is really nice. They just need to remove the 'auto-roll-correct' and give it to us on a key. Then, zoom the camera out a bit, and fix the barf-cam you get when aiming (the camera rubber-bands in a way it didn't before) and we'd be good to go!

The problem of motion sickness some people get still remains.
DE once said they don't want to implement such a 'free flying mode' because some people in there office got motion sickness. And now they are forcing the new system onto everyone.
That just doesn't seem right.