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Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]


[DE]Taylor
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4 hours ago, HeATMaN451 said:

Why retain the old controls in submersible tilesets for Archwing and not corpus ship tilesets, which are inherently the same?

Don't get me wrong, you can make it work.  In the Rush mission I've managed to get to the end with a Hyperion Thruster'd Itzal with time to spare for scanning the transport ships and their shield drones (You don't get codex for them, it turns out...)  I enjoy Archwing in a different way now, in fact Warframe is open and in mission in the background as I type out this rant.  But I really struggle to understand the reasoning for applying these controls to this environment.  Before, Archwing felt like an enabling factor to my abilities as a space ninja: nimble, space-faring death attached to a pair of mecha wings.  Now it feels like I'm being handicapped, everything feels less snappy and more slippery.  Having it feel heavy is fine, but when it's combined with the camera controls and the current physics of Archwing, it just turns it into unresponsive.

f68ed4b075e69529a4757a80b18e37a3.jpg

 

4 hours ago, HeATMaN451 said:

What do I propose?

1.) Add a toggle to switch control type (a la Starfox with "All-range mode" and "Corridor Mode") perhaps double tapping roll or an option in the gear menu, allowing you to switch from the new control style to the old and vice-versa.  Maybe have this represented by the orientation of the Archwing wings?

2.) Have a dedicated button to "righting" yourself to be horizontal with the world, and quickly.

All in all, my opinion on Archwing remains the same.  It isn't bad, it just doesn't feel finished, and I'm sure DE shares this mentality.  It still hasn't met the expectations of being a whole new and exciting way to play Warframe - but I'm not ready to give up on it.  Please don't mothball Archwing again!

 

(Supplementary rant'age edit!)

-Allow me to pull the FOV a bit further back in Archwing, I'm one of those folks who enjoy having my FOV at ludicrous amounts.

-Add a toggle for auto-swapping weapons when out of ammo, this gets rather frustrating with low-capacity arch-guns when you're forced to pull out a melee weapon after unwittingly emptying your weapon.

-If you're planning on going the way you're going with Archwing controls, more space ship than space ninja, go all the way.  Let me take my Archwing into the garage and fine tune the handling.  Give each Archwing it's own behavior, make Itzal nimble and snappy, make Elytron a space juggernaut, heavy and powerful.

post-2863-0-85139000-1411270365.jpg

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4 hours ago, Rombus6 said:

DE just bring back the old archwing movement system 

God I hope not. The biggest problem I had with AW is that I felt like a turret that could move fast from spot to spot but only to sit there and shoot at little dots. Doesn't feel like you're in space at all. The current system is superior as it feels like you're actually a spaceship but still in need of tweaks.

The pros:

1. Shooting while moving. Best addition so far. Makes combat felt much less like ground combat and more space dog-fights.

2. 360 movement. This is great in open spaces but terribad in small spaces like Corpus ship.

3. Removal of Defense. That mission was dumb and the ultimate turret game.

 

The cons (and how to fix):

1. Auto orientation of your camera to the level plane can be disorienting. You should have this as an option and could be turned off. I prefer to find my own orientation instead of being dragged when trying to get my bearings.

2. More buttons for auto leveling the plane. Set a button to quickly flip your bearing to standard plane. Add a button to quickly parallel yourself to the nearest enemy. Add a button to quickly face the current, closest objective. These are standard functions of space flight sims. 

3. Mobile defense is still a turret game. In space, no one can hear you scream in frustration sitting on a spot shooting at dots. You want to fly. Instead of simply defending a thingie, why not make it kinda like Excavation except without the excavator blowing up. Enemies would drop special orbs/container. You run to it and hit the orb/container filling you with glowing energy (no need to pick it up), go back and get the energy transferred to the thingie/satellite. The thingie completes when you reach 100%, similar to closing Fissure. Enemies will want to sap the energy so you still have to protect the thingie but it will never explode like Mobile Defense or Excavator. The most they could do is slowly wipe out the energy and your progress.

4. Better pathfinding. In Corpus ships the icon for where to go next is terrible. Maybe add arrow points like pathfinding to Simaris targets except you don't need to use scanner to see it. It's hard enough to try to find where you're supposed go among all the junk and now you have to do in 360. Flying fast avoiding debris and navigating through a giant ship: fun. Trying to find where the direction you're supposed to go: not fun. More icons on where to go please.

5. Melee shake: using melee is terrible now that we have 360 movement. This could be fixed with the addition of suggestion number 2 or just make melee auto orient yourself to the plane.

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I will give a much more in-depth analysis of the state of Archwing now, but want to take the time and drop a little note on how awful the current movement system is:

We tried the Rush mission on Phobos for the first time. I've been quite agile and well suited with Archwing through the past experiences, especially with a faster one like Itzal, which I used. The huge amount of additional inertia and the sluggishness in the controls make me feel like I'm flying a brick instead of an agile Archwing. If it was still the old controls, I would have taken less than half of the time to the target, ahead of everyone else. We barely missed it.

It feels more like I'm trying to maneuver the Liset or any other landing craft around instead of an agile Tenno who has plenty enough thrusters to quickly change direction. We're just proxies after all, remote controlled puppets, and superpowered at that. We can take quite some shock-force.

Archwing is now Slothwing.

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Mastery Test 20 is broken now with the changes to archwing, or at least it was for me, i stayed in a kneeling position with my cam at the wrong angle making me miss time Rings since my collision was slightly higher than the position of my Frame, not to say it's too slow and sluggish like Khynvyel just said.

Quote

Archwing is now Slothwing.

I agree, people hated Sharkwing for being slow so they made normal Archwing go the same speed, Why?

Moving the Camera back 2-3 meters so i can actually have a look at the battlefield would also help, i cant see anything anymore with an Elytron.

Reverting the FOV changes or giving us a slider would also help.

Also there is the fact that Newton first law now apply to Archwing in space even though it didnt before the patch (and was way more realistic that way, having to thrusters backward to slow yourself down), that's not how physic work in space, every action doesn't get an opposite reaction you just go forward until you hit something.

I'l add a 6axis movement should included a 6axis movement set i.e. rotate left or right button not both while holding a (unidentified button which have nothing to do with rotation in the first place), there is also the UI to blame, radar need a rework to fit the changes so i can know what and where I am going if im going with my legs up and my head down (which wont last because it will auto-rotate to center to a point too), maybe something akin to jet combat computer or something out of the old Tie Fighter game (a space combat sim classic, note not the steam version, it's missing half the game).

I count myself as the few who liked Archwing since day 1 having farmed 90% of the archwing weapons and mods but now that those changes been added i intend on hanging my wings, it's totally unplayable.

Edited by DaGhostDS
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1 hour ago, Khunvyel said:

Archwing is now Slothwing.

 

51 minutes ago, DaGhostDS said:

I agree, people hated Sharkwing for being slow so they made normal Archwing go the same speed, Why?

The thing is: its as fast as it was before, the slow part comes from the turning speed, which feels floaty and slow compared to the 90º turns we could make before.

The FOV and the turning speed need to be increased.

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To me, that's the reason why it feels like a "sloth". Slow turning speed still means slow. High inertia still makes things slow.

And the rest just adds up to it. FOV issues, spacebar thrust versus spacebar "drift up" contradictions, etc. etc. Sure, some could say that having zero delay in direction when jerking around the mouse is realistic. Okay, I give them that. But the current state of affairs is WAY too overdone and trimmed down.

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Really? A large chunk of the feedback has been "camera too close", "FoV too tight", "it's making me barf". And there are no plans to tweak it, at all? Tweaking the camera/FoV or getting options in place to let players manually adjust them should have been at the top of list for things to "tweak" about the Archwing mode. Along with actually working separate controls for Archwing that are not linked to the base Warframe movement.

I'll post the videos again.

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

 

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/totalbiscuit-on-fov.17530/

Why do we have to tell you folks at DE this? You are in the industry. Why is this still an issue we have to fight with Developers (not just DE) over?

Edited by Brasten
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That's it.  I'm done.  I've done my best not to be angry, to be constructive, to be as kind and understanding to the devs as I possibly can.  But after ten hotfixes and probably more on the way, I am really tired of being nice about this.

As far as I care, Archwing is nigh unplayable.

Which is sad to say, because I can see bits and pieces of improvements that are kinda awesome, but I can't enjoy them if this almost-pinned-to-my-right-shoulder camera viewpoint forces me to fight my stomach due to motion sickness as much as this inertia-heavy 6DOF system forces me to fight the controls.

How many people need to complain, in this thread and others, of motion sickness in Archwing, and specifically in Archwing, before you do something about it, DE?!  How many people need to tell you that rolling needs to be player-controlled?  How many times must people agonize over the details of your new Archwing physics engine before you admit that, hey, maybe it was a bad idea to fix what wasn't broke?

Moreover, you didn't fix any of the existing issues that plague Archwing, and introduced a host of new ones!  The affinity range is 50 meters, but a typical Archwing engagement occurs at ranges 250-500 meters.  Missing loot, what little that even drops, is still a very real problem, because loot pickups are tiny and hard to see, and even the auto-Vacuum that comes with Archwing doesn't help much there.  The map is useless - before it was passable, since there was a flat plane of reference and everything was built to operate on that plane - now it isn't, because the flat plane has been done away with.  Given that the camera is now pinned about a meter behind your right shoulder, you no longer have any sort of spatial awareness, which exacerbates the problem, since you can't rely on your map to point out where enemies are in relation to you anymore!  The enemy direction markers, while helpful only do so much since enemies almost UNIVERSALLY position themselves ABOVE the actual markers.  Even if you are aware of an incoming attack, good luck dodging it because your movement is subject to inertial hell, while enemies flit about totally undisturbed, making 90 and 180 changes in direction with no issues whatsoever.

I appreciate your willingness to innovate, DE.  I am grateful that you're willing to overhaul a game mode that has been decried as an afterthought and panned by much of the fanbase.  The problem is, your overhaul didn't address any of the major issues that existed with the old system, and piled a host of new ones on top of it!

To make this work, DE, you need to do three things, and the sooner they happen the better.  First, fix the camera.  Pull it back, make the player not take up an entire side of the screen.  Allow for spatial awareness, the same kind of spatial awareness we have in submersible Archwing and normal Warframe gameplay.  Second, the physics.  Let Archwings be the adroit, highly-maneuverable strikecraft that they used to be - coupled with the 6DOF capability and adding player controlled roll/reorient controls, players will have the sort of mobility and dodging advantage that base Warframe is built upon.  There's no sense in us being hyper-maneuverable space-ninjas on land, and yet being clunky, physics-shackled space-boats in Archwing.  Finally - the interface.  Give us a map that lets us navigate and spot enemies and lootable in 3D, in relation to us.  Give us orientation markers on our HUD - I mean, hell, they exist in real airplanes for a reason.  Give us roll, pitch, yaw, thrust, and strafe controls that respond quickly and immediately to player response.

When Archwing stops feeling like a chore to play, and stops giving me motion sickness whenever I try, then maybe I'll genuinely enjoy it.  Right now, it feels like a blight.

Edited by Arkvold
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2 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

That's it.  I'm done.  I've done my best not to be angry, to be constructive, to be as kind and understanding to the devs as I possibly can.  I am really tired of being nice about this.

As far as I care, Archwing's officially unplayable.

Which is sad to say, because I can see bits and pieces of improvements that are kinda awesome, but I can't enjoy them if this almost-pinned-to-my-right-shoulder camera viewpoint forces me to fight my stomach due to motion sickness as much as this inertia-heavy 6DOF system forces me to fight the controls.

How many people need to complain, in this thread and others, of motion sickness in Archwing, and specifically in Archwing, before you do something about it, DE?!  How many people need to tell you that rolling needs to be player-controlled?  How many times must people agonize over the details of your new Archwing physics engine before you admit that, hey, maybe it was a bad idea to fix what wasn't broke?

Moreover, you didn't fix any of the existing issues that plague Archwing, and introduced a host of new ones!  The affinity range is 50 meters, but a typical Archwing engagement occurs at ranges 250-500 meters.  Missing loot, what little that even drops, is still a very real problem, because loot pickups are tiny and hard to see, and even the auto-Vacuum that comes with Archwing doesn't help much there.  The map is useless - before it was passable, since there was a flat plane of reference and everything was built to operate on that plane - now it isn't, because the flat plane has been done away with.  Given that the camera is now pinned about a meter behind your right shoulder, you no longer have any sort of spatial awareness, which exacerbates the problem, you can't rely on your map to point out where enemies are in relation to you anymore, and the enemy direction markers only do so much.  Even if you are aware of an incoming attack, good luck dodging it because your movement is subject to inertial hell, while enemies flit about totally undisturbed, making 90 and 180 changes in direction with no issues whatsoever.

I appreciate your willingness to innovate, DE.  I am grateful that you're willing to overhaul a game mode that has been decried as an afterthought and panned by much of the fanbase.  The problem is, your overhaul didn't address any of the major issues that existed with the old system, and piled a host of new ones on top of it!

To make this work, DE, you need to do three things, and the sooner they happen the better.  First, fix the camera.  Pull it back, make the player not take up an entire side of the screen.  Allow for spatial awareness, the same kind of spatial awareness we have in submersible Archwing and normal Warframe gameplay.  Second, the physics.  Let Archwings be the adroit, highly-maneuverable strikecraft that they used to be - coupled with the 6DOF capability and adding player controlled roll/reorient controls, players will have the sort of mobility and dodging advantage that base Warframe is built upon.  There's no sense in us being hyper-maneuverable space-ninjas on land, and yet being clunky, physics-shackled space-boats in Archwing.  Finally - the interface.  Give us a map that lets us navigate and spot enemies and lootable in 3D, in relation to us.  Give us orientation markers on our HUD - I mean, hell, they exist in real airplanes for a reason.  Give us roll, pitch, yaw, thrust, and strafe controls that respond quickly and immediately to player response.

When Archwing stops feeling like a chore to play, and stops giving me motion sickness whenever I try, then maybe I'll genuinely enjoy it.  Right now, it feels like a blight.

I agree with most of this except the 6DOF.  IMHO, there was nothing really wrong with the flight controls in Archwing.  They were a little "clunky" and took time to get used to.

It was the scale that drives me crazy.  Loot containers appeared as ants to a giant. Even with loot radar on the main warframe, they are hard to find.  

Why do mods on the warframe affect anything in Archwing anyway?  Perhaps Archwing should have it's own Aura mod, exilus adapter slots?  Seems like a long time since any new mods, weapons or archwings were even added.  

Who decided to change the flight model?  

Can we see DE Scott in an Archwing mission?

I hope they scrap this flight model and go back to how it was like DE Steve said they will do if necessary.

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1 hour ago, Brasten said:

 

Really? A large chunk of the feedback has been "camera too close", "FoV too tight", "it's making me barf". And there are no plans to tweak it, at all? Tweaking the camera/FoV or getting options in place to let players manually adjust them should have been at the top of list for things to "tweak" about the Archwing mode. Along with actually working separate controls for Archwing that are not linked to the base Warframe movement.

I'll post the videos again.

  Hide contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

https://forums.uberent.com/threads/totalbiscuit-on-fov.17530/

Why do we have to tell you folks at DE this? You are in the industry. Why is this still an issue we have to fight with Developers (not just DE) over?

This is the exact problem with Digital Extremes: DE Drew said:  "We don't have any plans to tweak it at this time".  

How can you say that to customers?  "Tweak"?  Really?  It's terrible now.  They really made a HUGE mistake.  

Nice job, Brasten for pointing this out! 

Maybe someone other than tier one support will fix this problem.

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Personally, I like the new Archwing in general but at first, the slow auto camera reset made me feel sick.

Now I'm used to it but I would still prefer a button to reset the camera than the auto camera reset as Meneliki said.

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Just made my first archwing mission inside a Corpus ship since the new archwing flight system (Mobile Defense) ...

It was AWFUL ! I banged to all corridors. Course changings are way too soft with that new inertia. Also, I quickly lost my up and down.

Before, you could fly at full speed in the corridors and take the curves with some skills ; it was incredibly exciting with a perfect speed feelling.

Do DE realize they really f***ed up all of this ? They have to give back the previous flight system !

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First things first, as everyone else has probably repeated, FoV is way too small. Personally I find it incredibly easy to become disorientated whilst moving to shoot and more importantly the new movement methods are giving me some serious motion sickness, like after 2 waves in an interception I felt like I needed to stop.

This is honestly terrible shame as I love the concept of archwing and am glad it's getting more content, but this seems like it needs some serious adjustments.

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  • Ok...Here comes my two cents:
  •  
  • After a pause, a mate asked me to try the new Archwing mode:
  • I did a Corpus Exterminate mission.
  • My first like was the new aim cursor.
  • And...that's it. That's was the only thing i liked on the new Archwing system.
  •  
  • The controls are awful.
  • The mouse cursor is now totally depending on the direction you're facing/rushing/shooting.
  • And it's really damn annoying, when you're rushing.
  •  
  • No more Rolling. The grace and beauty of Rush has vanished into oblivion.
  • Before, i WAS FEELING when my Frame was rushing. It was going FAST and he turned while boosting like a Boss.
  • Now, you cannot turn while boosting/rushing like usual. You'll NEED to break a little, change direction then "boost" again.
  • I don't have anymore the great feeling of "final race to the extraction" wit my mates.
  • And i'm not the only guy who have this feeling...
  • And trust me, shooting while rushing is so bugged/ridiculous. I cannot even laugh on it...
  • I was feeling like I was on a Big Battlecruiser with big soap on it.
  •  
  • I don't have anymore to be a Ninja-Archwing, like Jehuty.
  • I have the feeling of driving a big spaceship...which is kinda logic, but not with a Warframe (ninja).
  •  
  • Edit: sorry for the form.
Edited by Han971
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From reading some of the previous posts on this thread I see a lot of people having a lot of problems with a FoV. I also agree that the FoV is too close to my Archwing/Warframe which reduces visibility and in turn making it much more difficult to complete the mission's objective and to play Archwing altogether. Now, the question is why doesn't DE have any plans to tweak this? Most likely because The War Within update is coming soon. 

On top of this, sometimes your FoV can bug at the very beginning of an Archwing mission causing you to see a face full of your warframe's booty. I'm not against looking at booty, but this FoV bug has been in the game long before SotR and I'd really like to pay attention to the mission objective and not have to stare at my WF's butt. 

Now as for the constant spinning causing motion sickness and disorientation in Archwing is a huge problem for me personally. Not having a button that reorients myself according to where I am in the tileset and in space makes it very confusing and frustrating to have to deal with. This problem is especially prevalent in corpus tilesets where there are a lot of tight spaces and broken ships and JV Raid part 3 flying inside golem.  And sure the camera can reorient itself automatically, but it far too slow and sometimes it reorients me upside down which is very painful. I want to focus on my mission objectives not on where I am in space. Now with this, I'm wondering will there be a rework on the corpus tilesets in Archwing? Will there be a rework on JV Raid? Because this new movement system made these mission almost unplayable and I'd like to here your thoughts on it. 

As for certain Archwing abilities that changed how they are used like Penumbra, I used to be able to stop pressing any of the movement keys and cast the skill and would instantly stop my Archwings movement. Now I have to slow down before I cast it otherwise the skill will break and turn off. Was this new Archwing movement intended to change how Archwing movement prioritizes over ablities? I had a lot more control over my Archwing prior to SotR and I'd really like that control back on my Archwing. 

Honestly I think Archwing movement was fine and didn't need much of a change, the added diving and rising was good and the boosting made it hella fast. The added mission types for Archwing is definitely a plus, but the FoV, lack of control of AW movement just makes it hella frustrating. 

I await your response DE. What sayeth you?!

 

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So I just spent like half an hour going through previous replies to see what's being covered or not. It appears there's plenty of good feedback for the improvement of the AW game type.

Here's mine: GIVE US THE OPTION TO PLAY IN THE ORIGINAL CONTROL SCHEME.

I believe your developers' attention is better spent in enriching the game modes.

The others can play space-flipper all they like on my screen, I won't mind, but I just want to be able to play it without buying a new keyboard - is all.

#MakeArchwingGreatAgain

Kind regards,
Your creamy ninja.

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Well, I didn't so much mean a 'camera reset' key, I meant more of a pair of keys to let us roll left/right at will. Or, hold down a certain key and move mouse left/right.. w/e. some method of actual roll controls.

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So I made a video showcasing some of the issues with AW movment and providing commentary on things that I personally find fault with. I figured it's much easier to demonstrate many of the things I've posted about than trying to describe them in words. I sincerely hope a dev spends 9 minutes looking at it and taking some of the ponts I made into consideration.

 

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Like several other posters I just played my first few Archwing missions since the patch a few moments ago and I am sad to say that I was quite disappointed by the experience. 

With no sense of Horizon it becomes very confusing (albeit realistic I suppose) and makes things like looking for downed teammates that are right next to you very challenging when you are first introduced to the new system.

The movement also feels a lot less fluid than the previous system which is only amplified by the FoV (which is a tough battle in it's own right).

Perhaps it's something you need to get used to, but the initial experience has left a sour taste in my mouth. 

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I'm so glad this topic was created!
I just aborted Caelus after about 4 minutes of trying to fly. Had to quit because I was getting sick. Like headache, nausea, and confusion. Couldn't tell where the enemies were or were the points to intercept were. It felt like getting hit hard in the head and then sat down at a PC and told to play.
I've never been into the Archwing missions so I figured everyone else could enjoy this part and I'd go on with the rest of the game. That is until I found out that the Pluto Junction requires this mission to be completed. The way the movement system is now, I cannot finish the junction.
I would say that is a problem. Not a serious problem, but it's a mission that a player is required to finish and cannot.

I've been in this since 2013, so I already had all of the planets unlocked (got that done way back at the original starmap). I don't know how not completing a junction affects new players. But if you absolutely need to finish a junction to go to a new planet, and cannot because the mission required makes you sick... how does one get past that without taking medication to play the game? That's not a joke, it's a serious question.
It's not just the spinning around that makes me sick. I'm good with carnivals and amusements parks. I love the spinning rides and the ups and downs from the faster rides. I also enjoy space sim games, as well as games like ZoE and Ace Combat (the golden oldies lol). There's something in the new flight model specifically that causes this. So before someone says just quit gaming, it's not gaming. It's this part of the game.

So I guess I'm just asking for a "quick fix". I'm glad some people like the way it plays now, and it is cool being able to spin around with no real up. But for the others, can we please have a toggle back to the original Archwing flight model so we can at least finish these missions?

Another concern is Titania... Steve has said that when she shrinks she'll go into an Archwing mode and fly around the normal missions. I'm VERY excited for this! But if she controls the same ways the Archwings do now, I'll have to skip that ability. And that's sad, cuz she sounds really cool.

I'll keep playing Warframe, and I love the direction it's taking, but the new Archwing system is sadly not for me. Thanks for making new changes and trying things out Devs, but I have to pass on this one. :\

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In my opinion:

The feel that DE put in the flight system (6DoF), did at half, it seems made for consoles.

If you have not yet tried: 

Spoiler

Set the Archwing so that it is with the same sensitivity as you gave your mouse in normal mode. It can cause dizziness and lack of control is a headache, rest assured that you will fold the neck trying to get even what is on the screen.

New archwing game modes:

Spoiler

One in which you pursue a Grineer ship that never escapes and only makes you get dizzy, at the end you have to defend about 1 minute. The other in which you need to keep shooting to balls while you hit with the entire map because of the movement control... And if you're lucky, you can find three ships at the end of the map to destroy them and that's all. In both modes, the experience is crap, nor mention the rewards.

What is expected and what can be improved? ~At first, a 3D map, obvious is not easy to get used but it is necessary in a game mode as Archwing. ~Second, the keyboard should be able to leveling the archwing with commands, it's a punishment that you need to wait several seconds to rotate the screen to its original state. ~Third, when thrusters are used, I'd like to still be able at manage my archwing with the keyboard, not only with the direction of my coursor.

PS: I'm not Englishman so excuse me if I can't translate my idea very well.

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