Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

[----Fenrir----]

DE please start doing some playtesting before releasing major updates. I just did an AW Mobile Defense alert and that was already enough to make me feel slightly sick. Just having a handful of people play the new AW for an hour or so would already likely have shown how prone the new movement and camera position is to cause motion sickness.

[OliverSniper]

Hi! :)
I was a big fan of arcwing and played it from time to time and always had a lot of fun with it.
At first the new movement system didn't felt bad but strange and I had some fun on the uranus interception mission. But tuday I got serious motion sickness while playing on the corpus tileset.
I never had motion sickness ever before in my life but now I nearly passed out. 
Anyone else encountered the same problem?
Some of you probubly did

I apriciate the hard work that DE put into their game and  wish the keep up the good work.
But I don think the changes we got for arcwing are good enoght for people to like it:
Perviously we had an unlimited amout of slots for the equipnent we used for arcwing which was nice considering the amount of time someone had to put in if they whnated to get weapons and arcwings.
I won't rantabout neading to send plat for slots cos 12 plat is not hard to get. 
In my opinion the problem with the game mod is the way we aquire gear and the movement system
De is already working on some fixes for movement and I hope that the will be enought to stop motion sickness. About aquiering gear I think we shoud just get them the way we get market items buying blueprints and craft them with resourses but thats just my opinion about the subject.

in short:
the movement system neads tveaks cos it may cose serious motion sicknes ( I nearly pased out, my head durts nad I felt like im spining in that reactor eria tho I was standing still)
 

As a simple solution I think we shoud chose betwean the old and the new system in the options menu
Also I think they should get rid of the automatic camera rotation

Edited July 25, 2016 by OliverSniper
I forgot something

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

In case you didn't know, DE Scott announced in DevStream 77 that they are reverting to the old camera angle.

What he said made logical sense.

They changed the camera angle because when your archwing is closed to the camera there is less distance to travel when the camera moves.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work well in actual gameplay.  It does, in-fact, make some people physically ill.

It is really great that they are reversing this decision.

They are also adding options where players can turn off the auto righting system.

It is,  however, alarming that they made these changes and did not test them with actual players.  They just had all of the PC players do the testing.  This is not a good practice.

It is also very alarming that DE Steve said that they were pressured into releasing the update in July and that his job was in jeopardy if they did not deliver.  

Hopefully they will learn from their mistake and not repeat it by releasing updates before they are tested in the future.

I really hope they scrap the whole 6 degrees of freedom movement changes and go back to the old system entirely.  I am not opposed to change, but I am opposed to change that does not improve an existing system, but is a change for the sake of change.

I completely agree with EnderDDT and would like to comment on two specific points.

On 7/22/2016 at 0:49 PM, EnderDDT said:

Finally, acknowledge the difference in rewards. It takes 3-10 times as long to take out the most basic of archwing enemies compared to normal warframe ones and there is almost no way to blow away entire groups the way you can in normal Warframe. The rewards should reflect this. Furthermore it is much more difficult to find and pick up those drops in archwing, even if you don't count carrier's vaccum, so that is another thing to be fixed. Units for abilities are higher, so increasing the distance for pickup could easily be done in a similar way. If you can't reliably get rewards that are worth getting than why not go somewhere else?

DE needs to add more Archwing mods and weapons and re-evaluate the drop system and loot crates.  Loot crates are too small and very hard to find.  Even if you find some loot in an asteroid, you often cannot see the loot from far away and it's hard to pick up.  Make the loot crates bigger. Why loot detector equipped on your warframe has any impact on Archwing is beyond me.  Most new players never realize this.  They should have an Archwing aura and accompanying mods which do not exclusively appear in alerts.  Has anyone seen a Loot Detector aura mod in an alert recently?

They need to add more Archwings with AoE damage abilities.

Secondly:

On 7/22/2016 at 0:49 PM, EnderDDT said:

Just remember to look at what works as the basis for what to improve and be clear of what is a problem and how it is a problem and why it is a problem before trying to fix it.

I do not know of any players who were begging for changes to the Archwing flight system.  Sure, it takes a bit of adjustment to learn how to maneuver in Archwing.  That does not justify completely reworking a flight system. Especially when the new system is more complicated and has flaws which impede the players ability to complete missions because the controls are terrible. Simply because someone thought that 6 degrees of flight would work well on PC and consoles in a shooter game does not justify implementation without testing.

 

[Tzolkat]

The new Archwing movement system definitely takes a bit of an adjustment compared to the old one. Oddly, after a few accidental runs I found myself running into walls a lot less compared to the old system. Coming from a space flight simulator, the controls could use a bit of work. Namely it doesn't really feel like you're in control of some of the movements the Archwing is now capable of. We need to be able to change our orientation as easily as our direction. The camera needs zoomed out a bit as well.

We also should be able to push off of cover or obstacles if we collide with them slowly. We're warframes with wings, not spaceships.

Lastly, I think it would be a really cool idea for there to be an Arch weapon that works like a larger version of the Buzlok. Something like that would be really useful in zero-g, though it might have to be counterbalanced with some enemies being able to deploy chaff.

[Last_0rder]

Still not used to new archwing movement system. It really makes my head hurt. But good thing they are reverting the old movement system.

[Combustionsquirrel]

I just completed, or more like flew around trying to not get one-shotted by those damn Hellion Dargyns (which are an entirely different problem entirely), an archwing interception on an open space tileset and I found the game mode to be utterly unplayable. My character and archwing gear took up no less than 25% of the screen at any given time and I felt like a fish out of water trying to orient myself in some remotely comprehendable way. Reviving teammates was a feat of wonder, 85% of the time I would fly right past them without even knowing and have to try again at least once while hoping I didn't get 100-0'd by Hellion Dargyns. The new movement system is cool and cinematic but it is utterly unplayable in it's current state.

[Nova]

9 hours ago, Last_0rder said:

Still not used to new archwing movement system. It really makes my head hurt. But good thing they are reverting the old movement system.

They're reverting the camera, we still have 6 degrees of freedom

[TaylorsContraction]

Personally aside from the people getting motion sickness, most people complaining about the movement only played once or twice. It takes a few rush mission attempts to understand how the new movement works and how /when to use aftrerburners. It's the exact same thing of people complaining about lunaro after trying it once and getting rekt by players who are already fluent with the controls. New controls have to be learned, you can't just pick it up and expect to be a master. Spend a few hours understanding how to handle the inertia.  then leave a  constructive reply (though there have been plenty of those already). For those getting motion sickness, I hope a greater FoV in the next update will alleviate that issue for you all.

Asking to revert to the old system is upsetting, three new system is far better imo.

[Jural]

The issue I am having is they tried to simulate a space sim for controls, however  in a space sim, your look is independent of ship pitch/roll/yaw. So aiming, suddenly your changing direction where you should not be. 

I can see how people are getting motion sick as this is faster pace movement bouncing from target to target. The player aim in this case should act like a gimble weapon in a space sim, it can turn, and does not affect your direction of movement.  

Personally in this style of game play, I'd have to say the old style realistic or not was correct for the method. 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Jural

[felixsylvaris]

In one archwing mission directly after starting i was still using regular warframe weapons Attarax and Telos Boltor. I died and after rebirth i had correct weapons.

[Suicidal_Bunny]

          After testing the " new " arcwing movement system for a few days now all I can say is that I do not like it. First what was the best part about arcwing is going down tunnels and racing your team mates to the finish or next objective and being able to do tight turns and move around with both boost and afterburners at same time never slowing down. You took that away with new floaty and spiny arcwing. Sure the 6 axes of movement is great when you're out in the open and there is nothing around you but its also very boring. My best memories of arcwing were chasing each other in tunnels and racing my friends or pugs to the objective. You have to admit the gunplay of arcwing is very sub-par compared to ground warframe combat. When you are out in the open you cant jump around and dodge and do awesome tricks while killing your enemies. Every enemy just shoots at you as you fly for a second, stop to shoot back and fly again. ( because you can sprint and shoot at same time  >.> apparently advanced space ninjas have not mastered the most advanced technique of them all ..... multitasking ) 

 

         The old Sbend with the pipe in the middle on corpus arcwing missions and random corridors are no longer possible while boosting and after-burning because no matter how hard you turn you just float into the wall, hit it and lose you boost and start floating upwards for no reason.

 

          I challenge anyone from DE to perform a successful S-pipe with boost and afterburners on in any of your upcoming devstreams and if you can do it I'll take it back about it being bad. But if you fail or can not do it, then at least give us an option to revert to the old way arcwing worked. That way people who do like the new system can keep, and people like me who liked arcwing for being able to go fast and perform tight cornering maneuvers can do our thing. You made arcwing able to go really fast, and then you made it unusable in half of the content for arcwing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                With sincere thanks, Tenno Founder Suicidal_Bunny

[ACorpse]

Okay this started of as one item but there's a lot more so let's just throw 'em all out here.

1) FoV. It's too close. Way too close. Can't see jack when meleeing or sprinting. Why can I change it in normal mode but I have to stare at my own back in AW?
2) The auto-switching to melee when out of ammo is aggravating and needs to be an option. I'd rather wait a second to get some more ammo than switch to melee.
3) Please let me turn off the auto-rotate. Either have an "up", or don't. Don't do this halfway thing.
4) Linked to #3, please make the minimap work based on our current orientation. It's worse than useless when you're even slightly off the horizon plane. Just let us go full freespace.
5) We need tilt controls, left and right. Rebindable, of course.
6) Actually, can we make Archwing bindings entirely separate from normal ones? For some reason my sprint key in Archwing sticks to up (which is jump in normal mode). It looks like some controls are intrinsically linked (like AW sprint to normal mode jump) which may work fine if you're using a default keyset but if you've gamed for 20 years with a certain layout change is frustrating.
7) Can AW alerts PLEASE be more clearly marked as AW. So I can avoid them. Yes I said it, and I doubt I'm the only one.

I hope this thread leads somewhere, but at least for now I'm done with AW as everything has been drained of mastery for the moment.

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

To:  DE Sheldon, DE Rebecca, DE Megan, DE Steve, DE Geoff, DE Scott:

You have been challenged by a founder to perform a challenge.

8 hours ago, Suicidal_Bunny said:

 I challenge anyone from DE to perform a successful S-pipe with boost and afterburners on in any of your upcoming devstreams and if you can do it I'll take it back about it being bad. But if you fail or can not do it, then at least give us an option to revert to the old way arcwing worked. That way people who do like the new system can keep, and people like me who liked arcwing for being able to go fast and perform tight cornering maneuvers can do our thing. You made arcwing able to go really fast, and then you made it unusable in half of the content for arcwing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                With sincere thanks, Tenno Founder Suicidal_Bunny

It's not the first time, but I'd really like to see that in the next DevStream.   

Maybe with some friendly community pressure?

 

[felixsylvaris]

+1 for better XP

+1 for better loot

+1 for easier to acquire special weapons

 

Not we are waiting for more AW tileset, like cloudcity.

And mixed AW/ground mission on cloudcity and asteroids when you jump out of airlock back and forth. .

[Stefanizam]

I appreciate you guys working on your game, changing and trying stuff out and all that.

So I don.t mean to sound rude, but did you even try this new archwing system before releasing it?
So actually here's what I don't like so far, and to be fair, I might be wrong cause I only played one mission, failed it and ragequit with ALT-F4.

1. The camera is too close to the character and feels a bit confusing at times. The frame covers half my screen, making me loose situational awareness, henceforth making me dumb and slow, hitting every wall and obstacle in the way. 

2. This... I dont know the terms but... draging of the archwing thing that seems to happen when you try to turn? Momentum? Inertia? The inability to make sharp turns? Once you build up speed, it takes an hour to make a turn. Maybe you were shooting for realism but this game is with SPACE NINJAS! Forget realism!

A thing I love about this game is how much overpowering control you have over the enemy when you actually master the game's mechanics. And this new flight system feels debilitating somehow. This new system is making the archwing so hard to control and less maneuverable.

I don't know why all other people avoided archwing before, but I was avoiding it because, as Omnimorph said: "the progression is painfully slow, there aren't enough missions for it, and the rewards are pathetic.". I lost all interest when I saw that I had to farm loads of mods all over again and spend loads of fusion and credits to upgrade them! And the drop rate of mods? 1 or 2 per mission? Also I am almost exclusively a solo player, I try to solo whenever I can... defence and Interception on archwing are much harder to solo than the normal ones!

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

5 minutes ago, Stefanizam said:

I don't know why all other people avoided archwing before, but I was avoiding it because, as Omnimorph said: "the progression is painfully slow, there aren't enough missions for it, and the rewards are pathetic.".

One would have thought that they would have addressed these two issues before trying to change a flight system that actually worked.

Testing?

Hopefully they accept the challenge and show us a developer playing archwing in the next live DevStream.

[Acersecomic]

The new archwing movement system is absolutely horrible and a serious downgrade to the previous system.

Old archwing was controlable, smooth, fluid and easy to get around with.

New archwing is hard to control, drifts all over the place, there's no up and down left or right, it caused me neck pain, dizziness and nausea AND I DON'T EVEN SUFFER FROM MOTION SICKNESS! Just undo the movement changes on Archwing and it will all be okey again. Since the update came out I played a few archwing missions and stopped, because it is not fun in the least. It is bothersome, it is cumbersome, it is wrong in every way imaginable. I simply cannot think of a single good thing to say about the new archwing movement system. None whatsoever!

Revent it back to what it was, because I am not playing a single archwing mission until you fix it, even if you were giving away vaulted prime parts. Feeling sick and in pain is not worth it.
 

[Geuax]

@DE.Rebecca 

3 hours ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

To:  DE Sheldon, DE Rebecca, DE Megan, DE Steve, DE Geoff, DE Scott:

You have been challenged by a founder to perform a challenge.

It's not the first time, but I'd really like to see that in the next DevStream.   

Maybe with some friendly community pressure?

 

You have been challenged to not only do that s-bend but to beat a rush will all 3 transpots with the default keybinds

i'll sell my excal prime

[Kaotyke]

4 minutes ago, Geuax said:

@DE.Rebecca 

You have been challenged to not only do that s-bend but to beat a rush will all 3 transpots with the default keybinds

i'll sell my excal prime

Carefull... Rebecca is actually a good gamer...

[Geuax]

3 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

Carefull... Rebecca is actually a good gamer...

I'm not worried in the slightest.

[pavlo555]

42 minutes ago, Geuax said:

@DE.Rebecca 

You have been challenged to not only do that s-bend but to beat a rush will all 3 transpots with the default keybinds

i'll sell my excal prime

I did that, rebecca should be able to, too. I actually farm that mission for cores and relics, but some neat mods fall there, too (Nebula Bore on Phobos - Kepler  -- 90% Puncture damage for Arch-melee)

[(XBOX)Zoltan6201]

1 hour ago, pavlo555 said:

I did that, rebecca should be able to, too. I actually farm that mission for cores and relics, but some neat mods fall there, too (Nebula Bore on Phobos - Kepler  -- 90% Puncture damage for Arch-melee)

Yes, Reb is a good gamer. I really enjoy her on Warframe Prime Time.

Would realy love to watch DEScott try it.  Can he get 20 pistol kills too?

[dirtywindow6]

I am not sure if this has already been posted but.. It would be fantastic if 1. The Warframe did not take up 3/4 of the screen 2. If there could be a way to stop the screen from rotating. I know that the control system has felt nauseating, in my experience the only time that the Archwing game play has felt this way has been with the camera changes and the tweeks that were made to how the archwings actually maneuver. I also agree that the only system also worked and felt the best, for example I could actually zip around the map while performing rolls and the like without getting stuck on very minor obstacles e.g stuck of doorways and debris.  

[MacabreHaze]

So Playing the the festering pit of an archewing mission today to collect three signals so I could have absolutly nothing to do with this heap of sewage.. I've got to a realization about it. Its like they took the controls of Superman 64 and the camera of tomb raider. You know the one. Where you're playing booty calls. 

Here are some things that are really holding it back.. 

1) How your warframe takes up almost everything you can see. Like Laura Croft's rump in the early tomb raider games. 
2) Controls are absolutely nightmarish. Its so easy for your ability to do things to be disabled. Barrel roll takes about a second or so.. But you can't start firing again  until about 2-3 seconds after the roll. If you try firing within that time, your gun won't shoot. You do actually have to let go of the mouse button too if you where shooting before hand otherwise you won't keep shooting. And with how the system is, pressing slightly on a or d will put you into a spin very easily. 

3) Enemies. Almost everyone of them has homing and Aoe weapons.Those shield ones are pretty much immune to frontal bullets and shock you when you try to melee. In an odd turn of events.. Corpus are actually less annoying with their enemies. (But their levels are far more annoying. Like playing marble madness.) 

[pavlo555]

7 hours ago, dirtywindow6 said:

 if 1. The Warframe did not take up 3/4 of the screen 2. If there could be a way to stop the screen from rotating. I know that the control system has felt nauseating, in my experience the only time that the Archwing game play has felt this way has been with the camera changes and the tweeks that were made to how the archwings actually maneuver. I also agree that the only system also worked and felt the best, for example I could actually zip around the map while performing rolls and the like without getting stuck on very minor obstacles e.g stuck of doorways and debris.  

1. True

2. Do you mean auto-alignment? It's weird. Why not disable it being auto? Also, it even doesn't work in solo !

    If you really mean the new "no up and down" system - git gud? I mean, all the aircraft simulators and such have this and not having this in AW feels weird for a sim player. And having up and down feels extremely lackluster with action being slightly less intense than gundam.