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[DE]Taylor

Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

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There is many people here saying that change to movement system(6DoF) was bad and that no one was asking for this or that everyone wants archwing game mode to be similar to ground missions but thats absolutely not true, at least not among the players who play regulary and have big hopes for archwing,, Me and pretty much every player who plays archwing regualary was asking for 6DoF for a VERY long time, another thing we asked for was  ability to shot while sprinting.

I am not saying new update is perfect  or even great but it pushed archwing in good direction in some ways and now needs more work to fix its problems.(like fov)

 

Personally I have mixed feelings about drift, I did ask for ability to drift but not in the way it was added, I was hoping for ability to drift short while when release button forward or ability to shut down "engine" by pressing one of buttons, reason why I was asking for this was because of archwing shield enemy, with previous movement system it was really hard to position yourself to the side or behind it to shot it with your primary weapon, which lead to most of players simply deciding to ignore shield by mashing melee button, which was pretty stupid, it should be possible to kill enemies with every weapon both primary and melee, ability to drift would let us fly by enemy and shot it  from side or behind while drifting.

 

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My thoughts after 1 mission with the camera and melee attack fix applied in update 1:

YEAH!  That's what im talkin about, son!

Video:

 

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28 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

My thoughts after 1 mission with the camera and melee attack fix applied in update 1:

YEAH!  That's what im talkin about, son!

 

Indeed! Liking it much, much more now.

Now we only need the toggle center function and a FoV slider for AW alone (although I'm having no issues as of now myself :))

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13 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Now we only need the toggle center function and a FoV slider for AW alone (although I'm having no issues as of now myself :))

We really need the key binds fully split, they still aren't. For things like Roll to not be Modifier Key based (Crouch + A or D, so goofy) Also I'm still not happy that Auto-Rotate is active during movement. Which was more disorienting than having it go while stationary. It just needs to be a manual bind and fully correct orientation (which it doesn't).  I've already had the auto-roll roll me while flying upwards to get off a wall in the Corpus Run... and right into another because it spun me side-wise to my line of motion.

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cant play right now, did they include a toggle for archwing rotation auto correction or its still full automatic?

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19 minutes ago, rockscl said:

cant play right now, did they include a toggle for archwing rotation auto correction or its still full automatic?

Automatic but on movement instead of you having to remain stationary.

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18 hours ago, dirtywindow6 said:

I am not sure if this has already been posted but.. It would be fantastic if 1. The Warframe did not take up 3/4 of the screen 2. If there could be a way to stop the screen from rotating. I know that the control system has felt nauseating, in my experience the only time that the Archwing game play has felt this way has been with the camera changes and the tweeks that were made to how the archwings actually maneuver. I also agree that the only system also worked and felt the best, for example I could actually zip around the map while performing rolls and the like without getting stuck on very minor obstacles e.g stuck of doorways and debris.  

DEScott addressed this in DevStream 77.  

They are reverting the camera view to the way it used to be.

They are adding options to turn off the auto righting system.

6 hours ago, Culaio said:

There is many people here saying that change to movement system(6DoF) was bad and that no one was asking for this or that everyone wants archwing game mode to be similar to ground missions but thats absolutely not true, at least not among the players who play regulary and have big hopes for archwing,, Me and pretty much every player who plays archwing regualary was asking for 6DoF for a VERY long time, another thing we asked for was  ability to shot while sprinting.

Being a console player, I have not played the new AW flight system,  but I must disagree with this post.  I am MR21 and have played a lot of AW.  I have all of the AWs and weapons maxed out and even forma'd many times.

In all of the time I participated in AW with countless pickup groups, no one has ever mentioned 6DoF.

In fact, based on the history of this thread, the community appears to disagree with the need for 6DoF.

I think that AW has many more needs like new missions, (every planet with at least one AW mission), new infested, sentient, corrupted enemies, more weapons and AW models, and some different tile sets that do not have the exact same extraction point which is a completely unnecessary mini obstacle course.  This, above most things, confuses new players.  Perhaps they could adjust their affinity challenge awards so that they are AW specific and do not have pistol kills, hack a console, rifle kills, sliding kills (though possible, it doesn't offer a high enough reward to bother) etc.  They need different mission types that would make AW entertaining and appealing.  Put relic drops into AW missions?  Add more AW mods and have some chance of getting Warframe event mods in AW missions.  

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1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

Automatic but on movement instead of you having to remain stationary.

honestly to me sounds worst than  the previous thing, why the hell cant they just give a damn toggle for it

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27 minutes ago, rockscl said:

honestly to me sounds worst than  the previous thing, why the hell cant they just give a damn toggle for it

If it sounds worse that means you haven't tried it.  Give it a shot, the game play flows better and it becomes hardly noticeable after a few minutes.

 

2 reasons:  Either they feel that the auto rotation is acceptable for the foreseeable future for mission and map design, or it is an interim fix until they fully complete the transition to the new movement system.  

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1 hour ago, rockscl said:

honestly to me sounds worst than  the previous thing, why the hell cant they just give a damn toggle for it

DEScott said that they are providing a toggle. tl;dr

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On 7/27/2016 at 2:42 PM, pavlo555 said:

I did that, rebecca should be able to, too. I actually farm that mission for cores and relics, but some neat mods fall there, too (Nebula Bore on Phobos - Kepler  -- 90% Puncture damage for Arch-melee)

before they put back the camra, i would have put my excal on the line but the hotfix changes make the mission a lot easier

@DE.Rebecca i un challange , it not hard enough anymore

 

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5 hours ago, robbybe01234 said:

My thoughts after 1 mission with the camera and melee attack fix applied in update 1:

YEAH!  That's what im talkin about, son!

Video:

 

Yes, fixed camera, and rebind the keys. I still see you hitting walls and obstacles. AND this feels a lot less dynamic and fun than before. Thats what I'm trying to say

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4 hours ago, rockscl said:

honestly to me sounds worst than  the previous thing, why the hell cant they just give a damn toggle for it

 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

DEScott said that they are providing a toggle. tl;dr

Toggle and keybindings is what I'd vote for. In fact, an entirely separate set of keybindings for AW is sorely needed because if you're using some unusual bindings for normal play the AW ones simply do not play along. Like right now, trying to go "up" in AW kicks in the AB for no reason.

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I just want to say

THANK YOU

For fixing the archwing camera, and making auto-centering occur during movement instead of while stationary.  A dedicated recenter button would be better, but I am totally okay now that I can play archwing without throwing up.

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Really happy with the camera fix that came out in the latest patch, I can play archwing missions without feeling queezy again. Being able to move the camera out further to account for the larger archwings would be nice but the current camera works. The way orient to ground is working now is okay too, but it would be nice to completely turn that off or bind it to a key (like reload by default), not being able to control movement I see is the fastest way for me at least to start feeling motion sick.

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Can we get a toggle for 6 degrees of movement thingy? I really do not want to even touch that "freedom" in WarFrame. I prefered the pre-patch Archwing infinitely more than what it is now and do not want a single "movement" change that came with the Specters patch. Let us toggle the damn Archwing movement patch to pre-patch.

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Having just ended up in an archwing alert and figured that while I am greatly displeased that it wasn't marked as such (sure, I could have memorised the node, gone to the map or whatever to check, but frankly I've been doing my best to remember archwing even exists) I figured as something had been done to the movement this last patch, I'd give it a reluctant shot.

Whatever has been done, I can't quantify and give feedback on as I wasn't just uncertain of what was going on due to the heavy inertia and the camera fighting to pull me in whatever way it so pleased while I hurtled about upside down and at alternate fourty five degree angles of rotation, but the disorientation and nausea I got in enclosed maps prior has now extended to open ones.

At this point, it honestly feels more like the point of archwing isn't to fight the enemies, but the controls and mechanics.

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I really hope the Devs are actually paying attention to this thread. If so, let me say this as clearly and pointedly as possible.

 

Everyone has different triggers for their motion sickness in this. Everyone has their own preferences for orientation and movement in this. Stop trying to force people to use a preset of your own preference. No one likes it as it doesn't allow them to play to their own working capability. Implement preference sliders and switches to the UI to turn off "features" so we can adjust camera FOV and lock rotation/orientation if we so choose.

You addressed this as a point of concern in the last Dev stream, but the fixes you're trying to push are only dancing around the problem and are just as bad for many as the problem itself.

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On 7/28/2016 at 10:33 PM, ElfenLiedist said:

Really happy with the camera fix that came out in the latest patch, I can play archwing missions without feeling queezy again. Being able to move the camera out further to account for the larger archwings would be nice but the current camera works. The way orient to ground is working now is okay too, but it would be nice to completely turn that off or bind it to a key (like reload by default), not being able to control movement I see is the fastest way for me at least to start feeling motion sick.

I agree with everything here.

 

Please give us a way to not Orient to ground (other than not playing archwing).  Having my camera spin out of my control is not fun or helpful.  Maybe if it were a consequence of getting hit.

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Constant re-adjusting:

When I turn to a different angle I've got to adjust how I see the map. However constantly being forced to readjust because of the auto-turning becomes really confusing for the eyes. There is also the problem of getting through tight spaces at a different angle, if the auto-turning starts while going through a tight space you'll hit a wall. My suggestion is don't try to force people to turn instead put a complete rotation (up-right) on a button like  c, v, or b.

Comparison to the old movement:

The old system had much tighter controls and greater inertia when coming out of boosting. The tighter controls made performance in corpus mission excellent. We were able to turn a corner or get through a corridor while boosting. The large inertia was a fun mechanic to play with as you could slide around a bit. However we had to slow down or stand still to shoot and our movement was fairly restricted.

The new system has the fun 3D mechanic that lets us position our selves anywhere and it allows for shooting while boosting. However the controls aren't that great. When going at regular speed (holding shift) I have A and D controlling my back end and the mouse controlling the front end; to turn a sharp corner I need to use both. When boosting we now have less control over the archwing which is logical but not fun. It mostly drags out the missions as you slow down to turn corners or position your self to get through a tight space.

Though shooting while boosting has been a fun mechanic. I've been using it with fluctus to constantly strafe on Grineer missions.

I think archwing should have two modes that can be changed mid-mission. One mode where we're fairly restricted but have more control and another mode where we're mostly free to move in three dimensions. This way we could navigate the tight corridors of corpus maps and change to a free-movement mode when in a large area.

Toggle sprint/boost:

This was actually a glitch I found but haven't been able to repeat since the recent update. What happened was while boosting, using melee (kaszas, it locks you into multiple hits per press), and getting a codex scanner from my gear wheel. I got stuck in a constant boost moving forwards. Though I was on a grineer map, this freed my hand and allowed me to focus on navigating better with the mouse.

Since we already have a toggle sprint button should it also apply to archwing? Though we sometimes do need that extra control it does free the left hand from holding down W, shift, and space-bar.

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On 28.07.2016 at 8:18 PM, (XB1)Zoltan6201 said:

Being a console player, I have not played the new AW flight system,  but I must disagree with this post.  I am MR21 and have played a lot of AW.  I have all of the AWs and weapons maxed out and even forma'd many times.

In all of the time I participated in AW with countless pickup groups, no one has ever mentioned 6DoF.

In fact, based on the history of this thread, the community appears to disagree with the need for 6DoF.

I think that AW has many more needs like new missions, (every planet with at least one AW mission), new infested, sentient, corrupted enemies, more weapons and AW models, and some different tile sets that do not have the exact same extraction point which is a completely unnecessary mini obstacle course.  This, above most things, confuses new players.  Perhaps they could adjust their affinity challenge awards so that they are AW specific and do not have pistol kills, hack a console, rifle kills, sliding kills (though possible, it doesn't offer a high enough reward to bother) etc.  They need different mission types that would make AW entertaining and appealing.  Put relic drops into AW missions?  Add more AW mods and have some chance of getting Warframe event mods in AW missions.  

Having all archwing gear and having it maxed out and forma'd isnt really impressive, I also got everything maxed and forma'd, it didnt take me longer to get each archwing and weapon then 1-2 days and  I maxed out and forma'd stuff I was farming for next parts.

Of course random people didnt mention 6DoF, most of stuff I heard from random players i played with in archwing was: "archwing is bad and boring and that it should be removed from game since its waste of resources that could be used for main part of game: ground missions"

Even on forums most people were saying how bad archwing is and that its waste of resources, instead of talking about how to improve it, only few people on forums talked about how to improve it(including me) and among the people who talked about improving archwing all of them agreed that archwing needs 6DoF, do you know why people want it ? its because archwing players want space dog fights, for people who prefer to use primary weapon over melee in archwing combat is(was) VERY stationary, player was pretty much floating turret and enemies were also  fighting like that, combat where two sides float and shot each other isnt very engaging and is completly oposite of what warframe should be  about: very dynamic and agile combat.

Previous movement style is simply unfit for dog fights.

I do agree that archwing needs more of other type of content, like missions, enemies, weapons and so on, but first it needs to be more engaging to play and it needs to have better rewards, that never lose value(like relics) that could be got at comperable ration to ground missions, comperable ratio to excavation missions especially so people saw its "worth" to play archwing missions(people will always choose best/fastest way to farm for something).

 

Here is thread of my friend(who I befriended when we talked about how to improve archwing, he also agreed that we need 6DoF), about collecting and discussing archwing mission ideas:

and here is my thread for collecting and discussing ideas for archwing mechanics(I need to update first game since I created thread long before new updated to archwing movement):

Please join us with your ideas and join discussion about the ideas we collected :)

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Orientation lock, that's all that's needed to fix it, give us a button to press to lock it whenever we want. Don't even need to give me an orientate to ground button, I'll do that myself, just a Lock would be nice, I even find the idea of approaching corners and tight spaces locked at different angles of my choosing fun and challenging but while not being able to lock it's basically asking the wall to bash my head in before I even approach a tight space or corner.

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I've found it reaaaallly hard to re-orient myself after I've been surrounded by enemies, purely because quick spins to aim my weapon usually leaves me flipped sideways looking at a panel, stuck behind a wall, and slowly auto rotating from the god awful auto-rotate thing. 

Its not even about being able to reorient myself, its about being able to see where im supposed to go, and fly where I need to. And most of the time I can't do that without the thing fighting me on it. If you want to make us like mini space ships.. well jeez, just let us have a forward, a back, and turn us to face the mouse automatically. WITHOUT trying to force us back to the "right" way. 

A 3d radar would be nice too. Even a simple one like the aiming from the millennium falcon in the first star wars movie. 

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The new arcwing movement system is great, but i feel like two important things are missing from the old system:

First, the slide feature: the old arcwing didn't let you shoot while sprinting and to address the problem you could use the crouch button to slide and shoot enemies while keeping the momentum for longer periods (you could also do slide melee attacks, which was very cool). With the new system, this feature have been suppressed and i want to ask if you would bring it back.

Second, the sprint animations: currently the arcwing weapon points ahead for the entire mission, but when sprinting in the old system it used to point towards the camera and alongside the body of the frame, thus giving the sprint more aerodinamic fidelty. I think it should work like ground animation: when idling same as now, when sprinting the gun pointed back, when shooting the gun shift from back to ahead and after few seconds it returns back (like the actual ground animations).

On a side note, sharkwing still has the old sistem (which is not a problem) but the gun is pointed back even while sprint-shooting, feeling a bit weird.

I hope devs will reconsider these features and readd them to the game.

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