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[DE]Taylor

Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

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I'm going to be perfectly frank, I think the new Archwing controls are terrible. The old controls felt nimble but at the same time required a reasonable amount of skill to master at high speeds, and navigating relatively small corridors at high speed is an absolute thrill, especially since I'm using K&B which gave me the precision to do so. But now the Archwings feel sluggish and just terrible to play with, it's like I'm piloting a blimp with rocket boosters, the moment I actually speed up I can't help but worry about crashing into things, and full boost basically means crashing is inevitable. As well, the inability to either manually roll or automatic roll so your Archwing is always roughly "up" makes navigation on non-open maps an absolute nightmare.

DW either needs to change it back to the old controls or give players a choice between old and new, because the new system makes Archwings almost unplayable for me now.

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Please revert it, the old movement while wasn't perfect was pretty enjoyable and CONTROLLABLE. I'd say fine tune that instead. Revert the camera too...... Warframe shouldn't try to be a serious space sim. Seriously, have you play tested this, like, at all?!

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@Rizilliant

There were more threads like that since archwing was added to game, and you must agree that "PsychedelicSnake" in his "The Archwing Sandwich" thread pretty much pointed out every problem in current archwing and how to fix them.

I am so defensive about new movement because of people criticising  new movement system assume from the beginning that new movement flaws cant be fixed which isnt true.

Dont get me wrong I dont want anyone to suffer while playing archwing, I just want players to focus on ideas how to fix it and satisfy both sides instead of calling for revert since even if they revert the change it wont fix  anything since group who was asking DE for 6DoF movement in the first would demand revert to be reverted again...

I personally was hoping for dual movement system for archwing, hover like movement(old movement) for more precise combat) and high speed movement(like currently movement) for pursuits and dog fights(strike suit zero has dual modes of movement like that).

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Agree with OP. Please give us back the old navigation for Archwing! I get so pissed off when playing archwing now I gave it up. I just can't do it because I will break my computer from the aggravating controls that keep rotating the ffff map!

Also, for those who say this new movement can be better... w00t? If so players need to be able to control it. Lock or unlock rotation to freeze or unfreeze 6DoM because people like me who just instahate cannot deal with getting sick while playing
 

EDIT: Tried Archwing new controls with a full squad.. Just simple sabotage. Everyone kept dying all the time because nobody could get through the corridors or hit their targets because the map was rotating around us. Moving through corridors was really slow fr everyone and we crashed all the time. Everyone cursed Archwing...

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Ok so lets be honest. I actually like archwing and want to play more of it but the problem is that it is such a stupid grind that it becomes painful so no one plays it much and the missions for it are good-ish but not worth the pain of the grind. However that said Arrchwing is actually a basically good concept (I mean who doesn't like jetpacks) and just need some tweaking. Essentially I suggest that the first thing that needs to happen is an end to xp radius in archwing missions. All XP should be shared regardless of distance in archwing as otherwise it is just ridiculous to try to level let alone forma a decent archwing. Secondly we need more archwing missions as 1 per world is not really enough. Introduction of missions on randomly appearing clusters of asteroids or something throughout the system would essentially allow introduction of good rewards for archwing via the alert system (in much the same way that balor formorians turn up but on a more frequent basis) thus eliminating the need for excessive development time to be spent. These thigns would be really nice and would actually make archwing more popular.

Finally on a personal interest note I am just curious as to how the warframes can function in space during archwing when they cannot survive running out of LS in survival? Leaving aside radiation issues being exposed in space or loss of heat necessitating massive power requirements we can just focus on air as that is the most visible thing that LS canisters eject. If the warframes get their extra LS in space from the archwing pack then this actually makes a bigger hole as taking into account the smallest archwings (amesha or itzal) can operate in space practically indefinitely (I have done archwing interceptions for many rounds) yet die after 1 second without LS in survival the means to make indefinite life support that archwing evidently must have must be extremely small. Why would at least a partial version of this technology not be carried by every warframe (it would easily fit in many of the syandanas by volume even if you could not cram it only one of the extraneous ornaments that decorate most frames) thus giving you time to jog leisurely to the exit when the survival life support runs out. Considering we can run around in a vacuum at the end of certain missions anyway when waiting at the extraction point then there is no reason why we need to depend on LS. 

I actually like the survival mechanic of picking up additional time as it adds a sense of urgency to the game and keeps people playing at least relatively actively but it annoys me that it makes little sense. I personally would rather have an honest 'pick up tokens to extend the arbitrary time counter'' approach rather than disgusing the mechanic with a pseudo-science approach that just introduces plot holes.

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Umm, there really isn't much grind at all.

There are a few really rare mods, but other than that, everything else has no-grind what so ever.

Archwing Provides Life support, Mess up logic, Praise lore.

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AW XP range will be increased (thankfully DE read my request to increase it in the latest devstream) 

AW is far away from a grind, not with the recent SotR changes. you only need to farm it's mods 

AW gives LS. in these cases, it's better to leave logic at the side, since it's not DE's strong point 

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During AW missions the enemy location icon system needs improvement. It's frustrating having enemies pop up on screen seemingly outta nowhere while I'm blastin away with my weapon of choice at an enemy X feet away. (Currently solo grinding Erpo on Earth cuz I like to level up parts on alone on low level missions. It helps me learn effective play styles so I can keep up when I play with other players on higher level missions.)

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The enemy location icons need to grow and shrink based on the distance of the enemy. Also the projectile incoming alert needs to highlight the location the projectile is coming from. Currently it just notifies me that a projectile is incoming. The projectile location highlight could be added as a mod to give incentive for grinding/farming AW missions. There should also be a mod that highlights resource drops in missions. Thanks DE! I'm excited for the improvement of AW missions and gameplay :)

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This thread would be better titled "Archwing Opportunities", I'm positive DE would recognize/appreciate the professionalism which could lead to a faster turnaround time for the improvements. @Zacatzontli

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@faethflex I take your point but honestly I ceased caring earlier tonight. I was prepared to provide plenty of feedback on this and actually have some very detailed suggestions but frankly all that is going to happen is that I like many other people will get completely screwed. De has ceased producing warframe and now just produces nerfs so I am just done with this crap.  

 

@Magnulast @Kenshin98Archwing is not a grind? Have you played it? Seriously if you think that its not a grind drop me a PM because I would love to hear your alternate definition of what grinding is. I take your point on the mods and yes the good ones can be a bit of a chore to acquire but the central mechanic of leveling archwing does not lend itself well to producing a nice, well rounded archwing arsenal. Most people that I know and myself included maintain one, maybe 2 formad archwings at most and a single set of formad weaps because leveling them is such a pain. This may be different based on how much you archwing but for me I can only run salacia and caelus so many times and there are only so many groups. It's simply not a tenable position. You may well be right that with a consistent group you may be able to farm archwing affinity effectively but you simply cannot approach anything resembling a comparable affinity gain efficiency that you can get with a warframe or weaps. 

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4 hours ago, Zacatzontli said:

@faethflex I take your point but honestly I ceased caring earlier tonight. I was prepared to provide plenty of feedback on this and actually have some very detailed suggestions but frankly all that is going to happen is that I like many other people will get completely screwed. De has ceased producing warframe and now just produces nerfs so I am just done with this crap.  

 

@Magnulast @Kenshin98Archwing is not a grind? Have you played it? Seriously if you think that its not a grind drop me a PM because I would love to hear your alternate definition of what grinding is. I take your point on the mods and yes the good ones can be a bit of a chore to acquire but the central mechanic of leveling archwing does not lend itself well to producing a nice, well rounded archwing arsenal. Most people that I know and myself included maintain one, maybe 2 formad archwings at most and a single set of formad weaps because leveling them is such a pain. This may be different based on how much you archwing but for me I can only run salacia and caelus so many times and there are only so many groups. It's simply not a tenable position. You may well be right that with a consistent group you may be able to farm archwing affinity effectively but you simply cannot approach anything resembling a comparable affinity gain efficiency that you can get with a warframe or weaps. 

For me, Grind is just grind, consistently doing missions to go complete a goal.(Getting Weapon parts, and Archwings parts is much easier in the tenno lab, Relics, and syndicates.)

Neptune's MD is how I level up, I don't force myself to complete one goal every time.

And yes, I do know that the XP gain is unfarvorable, sadly, it hasn't changed all to much.

and I don't set out a goal to level up this weapon to level 30 within a 10 minutes. I got tired of it, so I simply don't do it anymore, I just carry them passively, and use the MR boost to put decent mods on.(MR21-21/42 mod points)

If you are with a group of ethylons in neptunes's MD, you should be fine.

Here's my take on it, (Top-Highest grind, Low-Lowest grind)

Grind weapon affinity 

Grind archwing affinity

Grind mods

Build and Craft parts for archwing/weapons.

(Leveling up the Dual Deciron, and I already hate the weapon even at low levels.)

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That poll is a loaded question, I myself even had a hard time clicking the "have a clear up and down so we don't get confused." option, and I know quite well that space games and movies usually DO have a defined up and down, because when we try the "realistic" approach, the public gets VERY confused.

It just feels right to click the "there is no up and down in space" option, regardless of how practical it is.

 

Also, that poll linked is from 2014, not now, and has nothing to do with how well the current 2016 system is working, it was a "what do you want in the future" question.. from about 17 months BEFORE they changed the archwing system.

 

On top of that, I notice how every "other" response to that poll is some variation of "make it optional", and so are a TON of comments in that thread.

 

I was a big fan of the old archwing system, and played it a lot, my main complaint, it took a LOT of grinding to get even basic gear, and when you got the gear, the gear and modding options were very limited.

The new system in contrast, makes me motion sick, and VERY confused, it's like my "primitive little monkey brain" was fully evolved to function in gravity at all times, and just dosnt know what to do when a base reference point like "down" gets changed.. and then when it starts to SLOWLY correct itself, I just feel like there's something very wrong and I have to stop whatever I'm doing.

I DONT want to rotate now, i'm still trying to figure out where I ended up and where I'm going next(and trying to ignore the nagging "how did I end up sideways" question)

 

This kind of confusions is simply NOT fun.

.. and archwing still badly lacks gear and modding options, which was the actual problem.

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Every post we make to the thread boosts it to the top of the list for this channel so DE is definitely watching. Archwing missions are a huge opportunity for this game and we're pioneering the lane for improving the player experience for everyone after us. That's the grind man, that's why we gotta keep sharing our thoughts and feedback here. We're in control.

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I believe in this thread and I'm here to support you. This game is awesome and I'm glad to have the opportunity to participate in this thread to make it even better @Zacatzontli We've got to persist through the doubt though. Let everyone else doubt the possibility of AW missions. You started this thread because you saw something that was possible in these missions. Keep that vision man. I believe in you.

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On 7/19/2016 at 8:26 PM, TaylorsContraction said:

So I made a video showcasing some of the issues with AW movment and providing commentary on things that I personally find fault with. I figured it's much easier to demonstrate many of the things I've posted about than trying to describe them in words. I sincerely hope a dev spends 9 minutes looking at it and taking some of the ponts I made into consideration.

 

None of the concerns thave I've brought up in this video have been addressed so I'll just reiterate the point. I hope you guys look into the input delay issues seriously.

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Me and some of other people I play with love the new Archwing gameplay, its easier to control, especially love the close up camara, I like to see the details of my equipment and environment. I say this is a good upgrade for archwing.

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17 hours ago, (XB1)HUNTERHECTOR said:

Me and some of other people I play with love the new Archwing gameplay, its easier to control, especially love the close up camara, I like to see the details of my equipment and environment. I say this is a good upgrade for archwing.

hmm, I dont play with a controller, but on keyboard and mouse, I have definitely lost a lot of control, I feel like i'm piloting a blimp now compared to old arcwing.

And, um, is that last bit sarcasm? I dont need to see my equipment at all, I remember what I brought, and if I forget, the UI text is all the reminder I need.

The only positive I find with the close up camera, is that it makes playing as ember or valkyr show more eye candy on the screen.. dosn't really help with gameplay as much as just, seeing more of the enviroment would.

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17 hours ago, (XB1)HUNTERHECTOR said:

Me and some of other people I play with love the new Archwing gameplay, its easier to control, especially love the close up camara, I like to see the details of my equipment and environment. I say this is a good upgrade for archwing.

I like it so far, but for the love of god I want to be able to strafe when ADS...

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Guest GorgonTheHeroine

1. No clear path through ruined ships.

2. Once you start to roll over, due to constant weaving, you can't right yourself up. This causes a sense of confusion and disorientation. 

3. Constantly running into ship sides and other objects, due to the poor controls/handling.

4. The camera is far too close. 

5. Motion sickness.

There was simply nothing wrong with the previous archwing movement. You moved and behaved as you would in space.

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Realism does not equal fun.

After trying it for the first time the phrase that popped into my head. "Six degrees of freedom, no degree of control."

Perhaps I could spend some time and 'git gud'... but why? I'm unconvinced. I used to enjoy the movement system. It was SNAPPY. That's what I liked! I didn't care if it wasn't realistic. I enjoyed it despite it having little relation to the rest of the game, which was what I considered the archwing game mode fault in the first place. I mean, I thought sharkwing was a step in the right direction, I just wanted more game modes that would transition between Archwing and regular mode.

Anyways, I've simply just stopped playing Archwing mode since the control scheme change. I don't think I'll really play it again until something extreme happens again. I find that a little depressing.

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I think that was it. The feedback thread is unpinned. DE has committed to the new system and it is here to stay no matter liked or not. Let me try to rationalize their decision.
 
Remember when the archwing come to be. I remember in one of the dev streams, i think it was Scott, who was explaining that they wanted the movement to feel familiar to the rest of the game. I think it was sound decision since they were trying to "sell" the new archwing game mode to a group of people who already liked the movement in the game. I'm sure we can agree that if someone doesn't like the movement system of Warframe wouldn't have stayed for very long. So the design made sense.
 
And now remember the disaster of the launch and thereafter. Archwing never succeed to take of really. I don't think however that the movement system was to blame but whatever... DE listened to feedback... and now we have this one...
 
It seems now the focus group appears to be the interception of people who like Warframe and like fly simulations. This is definitely much smaller portion of the player base but if DE manages to engage this portion and get bigger coverage of that group they might get netto more players in archwing then before. I personally doubt that this will be the case but only time will show and DE has all statistics to track it.
 

This is of course bad news for people who actually were plying archwing but happens to not like fly simulators. I think these are the people complaining on the forum and unfortunately I'm one of those. For us it is, sorry Folks, try the new movement, and see if you are able to tolerate it... if not .. it was fun till it lasted .. but it is here to stay.

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I accidentaly got into anothe AW mission last night. Untitled Alert.. So i decide to try it, and  my buttons have changed.. I use a controller.. A use to be thrusters, now it makes me go down.. LB used to slide, now its my thrusters.. When did tyhis happen? It wasnt like this a few days ago! This is even worse.. I sat and tried to play that mission, and i got 6 kill... SIX! in a mobile defense mission..

 

I can NOT aim these weapons.. Now im back to being sideways, and i can only shoot things when im sitting completely still.. If i move or tap my L3 in the slightest, that ridiculous circle that the Archwing makes, makes it impossible for me to hit a target.. Everytime i go a little sideways, i have to stop moving, turn in the direction i need, and spin forwar, or back, to try to straighten the horizon.. Then enemies still seem to all stay straight up and down.. ITrying to fly through that corpus map, tilted, was impossible for my brain to comprehend.. And no, it was NOT straightening itself automatically.. I had to manually straighten myself out, everytime!

 

PLEASE let me lock myself in place, like the old version, and remove this stupid wide turning BS!  Its SO bad, im still in shock anyone can possibly enjoy this.. I was thoroughly enjoying Archwing before Specters of the Rail, and worked my butt off to ge all the weapons,a nd some extrat Archwings.. I really wanted Atlas.. Im not going to be able to fight Jordas if i cant move without puking, if i have to sit completely still to shoot, if it has this wide turning, floaty movements, and im sideways, or upside down all the time..  PLEASE put it back!!!

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My feedback is not concerning the new movement but please consider adding archwing weapon parts back in archwing missions. Farming the new gear gave me a reason to play archwing, now there isn't much else to do besides leveling your gear, unlocking the nodes and that's it.

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