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[DE]Taylor

Archwing Movement Overhaul Feedback [Megathread]

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Others have said it, I'm saying it again, the random roll effect is nauseating, ending up flying through the mission updide down or shooting sideways with the only way to correct is stop and it automatically does, but I don't wanna have to stop every 200m to auto-rotate. Also the zoom is too much. Either fix the issues, add selections in options, or add some bindings for the roll and zoom. I would even be happy if it was an option to select old style movement. This new style has too many problems and makes things like rush impossible because your flipped upside down and can't correct while trying to speed navigate a course. 

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give us the option to disable the new movement system and revert to the old one. archwing movement wasn't a problem, didn't need "fixing". it is the repetitive nature of the game as well as boring mission and enemy mechanics and level design (looks pretty but plays s***ty) that need fixing.

freedom of movement works in space sims because you can control when and how you roll, but the way it is implemented in archwing currently is really bad and just makes people sick. 

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List of few things that need to be rework and fix.

1 Please fix the camera we shouldn't have to wait for it to auto adjust every 200 or 300 meters

2. Please give us an option to choose between old and new movement.

3. Reduce the collision damage on Archwing..

4.Please add a training course for the new movement.

 

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So after thinking about it for a little bit i think i may have come up with a great idea to perfect Archwing movement. The biggest thing people seem to be complaining about, at least among those i have spoken to, is a lack of fine tuned control. What i propose is a sort of switch, where the space bar no longer acts as a boost but as a toggle between two modes of flight. Hover mode, that acts much like the early Archwing flight, keeping your orientation upright along the map's axis. Then flight mode, where you control speed with W and S , and roll with A and D , and lastly the mouse becomes a pseudo analog stick for flight steering, turning the Archwing into something more traditional like a fighter jet, in its flight capabilities. Allowing for a more dog-fight kind of feel. With the toggle between the two modes, this would allow for both high speed maneuvering with flight mode, and high accuracy and increased maneuverability at slower speeds with hover mode. 

Think something like a VTOL, swapping between high speed and hovering. 

 

Anyway, let me know what you think? Its just an idea i had and felt the need to share. 

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The archwing update are good, but personally with the new archwing overhaul i can't seems to speed flight anymore, i keep on knocking something and i can't speed turning to avoid knocking unlike the old archwing movement, where i can speed flight and speed turning left and right to avoid knocking ... i hope there's a button to switch between the new and old archwing movement ... it's kinda the only reason i play archwing, the speed, now seems like its not ideal anymore ...

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On 8/14/2016 at 1:35 AM, Mortischya said:

If you're going to have full 6 degrees of movement then for the love of Lotus give us control over roll. Easiest combo I can think of would be Alt+A and Alt+D for roll left/right. Right now with no control over this Archwing is just unplayable.

Also please lose the zoom when engaging in melee ... the whole operation looks like a train wreck ...

Years of development, and they dont have a movement system that functionally works, and doesnt make people sick.

First they have to separate out the controls for Archwing and the main game. And frankly, I dont think this engine can do that. But they must do it, if they want Archwing to stay around (which I wouldnt, but thats just me). 

Then yes, we need control over all 6 degress. Including Roll. 

To be honest, though, I think its time to just scrap Archwing. IF you spend two years on something, and cant even make it work at a basic, functional level, why continue to throw good money after bad? That TWW will apparently involve this made again  worries me...

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The old AW controls, camera and orientation (fixed Up and Down) works fine for all AW mission types but it seems all this was sacrificed for the Pursuit mission. Sure the 6DoF looks cool on the enemy ship but let's face it why waste 15~20 minutes to chase and disable it for the paltry rewards  when it's more efficient to fly into it and fluctus it. All other mission types should have a fixed Up/Down. 

Shooting forward while flying (sprinting)  left/right looks and feels weird. The only good thing with the new controls is that I can now stop with precision in open maps, where in the past I tend to overshoot an interception tower or a downed member. 

Instead of having a feedback megathread with no clarity from DE, if it's possible why not create an 2 day Corpus trench-run event using old and new AW control schemes and everyone votes.

 

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I can't take it... 

Despite all attempts to like AW controls overhaul... I ended up only hating them more.

Slide is gone as a thing in general, but the moment you need to turn - HELLO! How's it possible for inertia effect to "exist" only when you try to turn, while moving, again? If the archwing sort of "cancels" it's effect in general - why it doesn't do the same on turns? Or... Whats the logic of this effect for AW anyways?!?

Constant rotating above all is just annoying as hell.

Overall movement is too awkward. 

 

Anyways, I did play AW missions for fun, occasionally, but not too much mostly because there were pretty much NO MISSIONS TO SPEAK OF (which haven't changed at all), not because it's controls.

And now with those new "awsome" controls the only times I actually do archwing missions is because I'm forced to, like during nitan alerts - thanks.

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I'm going to be honest DE, I miss the old system. It had such precise and crisp controls that now feels like I'm flying with a ten ton weight on my back. I say bring back the crisp controls we had before, slow down the archwing to a much more reasonable pace, and make mission smaller. Trench Runs are way too dificult for the extreme speeds we have, yet the extreme speed is necessary for open map grineer missions

My changes:

  • Use old archwing model in terms of camera direction and movement system, while maintaining 360 movements of new system.
  • Make the grineer missions smaller and trench runs shorter.
  • Slow down archwing movement speed
  • Add 360 movement to sharkwing
  • Add a horizon to know what is level
  • Create Key Binding for controlling what direction we can camera role.
  • Add ability to shoot while sprinting.

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First of all, yes I know this thread is older and hasn't been posted on in a while. I don't care. This update has been in effect for a long time and the issue of having no way to control/fix your orientation has yet to be fixed. DE, I've been a part of this game since Ember Prime Access. I have taken breaks on and off from this game, but I was around during the introduction of Archwing, where I disliked it already for it's clunky controls. Many of the Tenno who have posted above me have valid points that seem to have been unaddressed. Please, for the love of the Lotus, fix the Archwing Controls. Add an option to bring classic controls for the archwing back, or follow the other Tenno's advice. PLEASE, let us know that this issue is at least being looked at... As one who has Prime Accessed several times since starting this game, I feel our concerns should be addressed.

-Thank you, Darthrc

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I'm kind of glad this thread has come back because I feel more qualified to post in it after trying a lot of Amesha.

I never really loved the old movement system, but I'd take back every negative thing I've ever said about it if it meant we could have it back. For all of old AW's faults, it was still the fast-paced combat Warframe is known for. Sharp turns, good control. The game mode itself needed work, sure, but with the old system I never felt like I was fighting the controls instead of the enemies.

That changed for the new system. I do like the idea of 6DOF. I would theoretically be fine with it, but the FLOATINESS. Dear lord. I can't do tight turns. I can't switch directions. I crash into things I really shouldn't be crashing into. I get disoriented. The minimap is pretty much useless, a problem persisting from the old controls but made significantly worse with 6DOF. I'm afraid to use my boosters because I will immediately crash.

Please put in a toggle to switch to the old controls. I want to love archwing, and after playing a fair bit lately, I finally feel like I could be good at it. But the new movement has taken away the speedy aspect of the mode, and made it significantly less enjoyable to me.

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Before the archwing rework, in space mission, we felt like playing Sonic... Now we feel like playing Mario...

Remember that Warframe is a fast-paced MMO action TPS. I support the return of the old flying ways. A switch option would satisfy everyone.

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The issue with Archwing is that making it like the old ways didn't work, and neither did the new, so DE is confused. I say that to slow down Archwing, zoom out the camera (or make optional first person) and shorten the maps. Camera making people motion sick? Slow it down. At max boost, with Hyperion thrusters, I should be going at the normal sprint speed of Archwing. That's fast pace enough. Make the maps smaller (some parts of free space need to spawn in, which screwed up enemy spawn) and remove the inertia effect, because it destroys the crisp controls, the only thing that felt unique about Archwing. 360 degree flying freedom is great, but 6 DOF isn't. We should only have 5, with backwards being a reverse. Slide is a missed feature as well. Overall, Archwing itself seems like a failed experiment that DE is taking a break from. I urge them when they have the time, to look into these issues. Archwing can be the best flying game mode around, it just needs fixing.

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5 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

The issue with Archwing is that making it like the old ways didn't work, and neither did the new, so DE is confused. I say that to slow down Archwing, zoom out the camera (or make optional first person) and shorten the maps. Camera making people motion sick? Slow it down. At max boost, with Hyperion thrusters, I should be going at the normal sprint speed of Archwing. That's fast pace enough. Make the maps smaller (some parts of free space need to spawn in, which screwed up enemy spawn) and remove the inertia effect, because it destroys the crisp controls, the only thing that felt unique about Archwing. 360 degree flying freedom is great, but 6 DOF isn't. We should only have 5, with backwards being a reverse. Slide is a missed feature as well. Overall, Archwing itself seems like a failed experiment that DE is taking a break from. I urge them when they have the time, to look into these issues. Archwing can be the best flying game mode around, it just needs fixing.

See, the problem with the 6DOF that DE has right now is it isn't a true 6 Directions of Freedom. We don't have the ability to freely control our bearings. We already have a way to slow our camera movements down, in the control options. What we don't have is a way to level ourselves out if we end up flying upside-down. Waiting is certainly not the answer. We need a way to straighten ourselves out, OR revive the old system and make it like the Submersible missions where your camera gets locked at up +90 and down -90 degrees again. This is an issue that should be fixed almost immediately to please a majority of the player base. 

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6DoF isn't a problem, problem is how it's handled. Right now it's too chaotic and confusing. Make the rotation of players fixed is certainly a way to make the game less confusing, but 6DoF is possible to do well and also it won't fix few other problems that the Archwing have outside of the controls and navigation. I have some experience with designing 6DoF shooter game (Miner Wars 2081) that have a lot of the same problems as Warframe have right now. I think first step to fix Archwing, the controls, movement and navigation have to be tweaked or changed like this:

Camera zoom and movement

You need to have much better overview of the battlefield than in ground mission, because on the ground you know where to expect enemies - on the floor, appearing from doors, running from behind a corner etc. Simply looking at any kind of ground mission scenery, you can pinpoint very few places where it's even possible for enemies to be - there will be like 2 or three in any current view. In space they can appear pretty much anywhere and they are often very small because of the distances. You want to view as much of the space around as possible to able to react well enough. Looking at the back of your warframe is not useful at all. So you have to zoom out the camera. That will not only make the warframe smaller, obstructing less space, but also give you enough of overview of your immediate surroundings. So you don't have to chaotically rotate all around if somebody is nearby and out of your field of view. You would be even able to see from where are the shots comming even from behind you and better guess where the enemy is.

Second part is when Warframe is using melee (or other maneuvers), don't shift the camera, let the frame move inside the camera viewport and than just simply and slowly adjust center back to the frame. I would even make the melee attacks more visually attractive because you will finally see how is the frame moving around and you wont loose the sense of space and rotation around you.

GUI elements

Just keep the red squares around enemies all the time. Even scale them up when enemies are closer to indicate who is further away. This is simple problem of the scale and it can't be avoided. I know it's not pretty to look and shoot at the red rectangles all the time, but I don't think it's worse than shooting on formless flares that you are shooting at right now most of the time and which can be so easily mistaken for just particle effects.

Minimap

You simply can't have 2D minimap for 6DoF game. It can't work. The minimap right now does more harm than good. I generaly don't have problem with orientation in 6DoF space, but the minimap in Warframe can confuse even me. You definitely need a 3D radar that will rotate with the frame all the time so anything on the radar will be in the same relative direction from the player as it is from the center of the radar. For better readability you would have to have a radar that have a basic plane that is always rotated horizontaly relatively to warfame with all the icons being either under or above that plane, perpendiculary projected to it so you will know their precise position. I can't find propper reference picture, but I can make one later.

 

These changes would in my opinion remove most of the problems with how the Archwing is controlled. But there is much bigger problem with the gameplay waiting after this. In 6DoF games you are generaly in the open all the time and don't have any cover. That is in direct conflict with the movement style of everything in the game - mainly that you can freely and instantly aim anywhere you want/need and that enemies can do the same. That means that you are under fire all the time soaking up the damage. You can dodge, but it's not enought, because aiming can be as fast as dodging. Only viable strategy in this situation DPS. Only useful skill is to aim, lead and fire, because nothing else is effective enough. You can use Archwing powers, but still the ones that deals most damage will be most used. You have pretty much no way to mitigate incoming damage soyou just disregard that and dish out damage as fast as possible.

I know it kinda worked in Descent, but it had tiny indoor corridors in which you could take cover similarly to any ground based FPS. Also it meant that the game was indoors and was slow. In most space simulators this is handled by having fighter jets with some minimal speed that they have to maintain all the time and you can shoot only in front of you. You have to maneuver around, try to predict enemy movements, get into their blind angles etc. Simpy dogfighting. I think there is a way to make somehing in between that could be interesting and fitting into warframe universe, but it's pretty much a ground up remake of Archwing. I will write the ideas down later and post them for you to see.

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On 30/08/2016 at 6:26 AM, SpazzDragon said:

What i propose is a sort of switch, where the space bar no longer acts as a boost but as a toggle between two modes of flight. Hover mode, that acts much like the early Archwing flight, keeping your orientation upright along the map's axis. Then flight mode, where you control speed with W and S , and roll with A and D , and lastly the mouse becomes a pseudo analog stick for flight steering, turning the Archwing into something more traditional like a fighter jet, in its flight capabilities. Allowing for a more dog-fight kind of feel. With the toggle between the two modes, this would allow for both high speed maneuvering with flight mode, and high accuracy and increased maneuverability at slower speeds with hover mode. 

Something like this? N yea i really like it and gives more creative freedom in the future for fusing archwing mode with normal frames/weapons.

 

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I hear a lot of people use the term "Key Binding" which is all well and good for those playing on a PC. As a console player, unless you have an outragously expensive controler, there is no such thing and we have to do with the basic controls. Movement feels sluggish to say the least. Aiming is much more inaccurate, I find myself meleeing enemies far more often than shooting them.

The "death star" trench like missions with the camera rotating on it's own to simulate how you move in space is completely off. The mission layout has you primarily on a horizontal axis, with nothing majorly impeding your way so rotating your archwing to a 45 degrees is pretty much counter intuative to what a pilot or astronaut are taught. An option should should be added to negate the camera rotating at all.

In greenier asteroid maps I find myself in the "superman" like flight position quite often even when I'm not using the boost. While this makes sense from a combat aspect, presenting a minimal target from enemies from the front, because of the HUD being fixed in a single position it makes things difficcult. There needs to be a gimble display in the corner or something to help with your flight position in relativity to a "virtual" horizon. Something that's used in every flight simulator, and real space/air craft.

 I have to point out most archwing missions are in space. According to physics, they should have full effectiveness even at a range of 500m+, since even at that range there wouldn't be enough to affect the shot significantly. Example, the Imperator has a range of 150m, and at 151m it does no damage. Others in space have a significantly less amount of damage. Why? That is counter to physics. However underwater, it makes sense. The density of water would give a projectile an effective range as well as having a damage fall off at extreme ranges.

Last is something I find plain funny, the archwing melee weapons have wallrun stats.

 

ps (I am not certain if my other attempts at posting went through, so please forgive if it got multiposted)

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On 8/29/2016 at 3:26 PM, SpazzDragon said:

So after thinking about it for a little bit i think i may have come up with a great idea to perfect Archwing movement. The biggest thing people seem to be complaining about, at least among those i have spoken to, is a lack of fine tuned control. What i propose is a sort of switch, where the space bar no longer acts as a boost but as a toggle between two modes of flight. Hover mode, that acts much like the early Archwing flight, keeping your orientation upright along the map's axis. Then flight mode, where you control speed with W and S , and roll with A and D , and lastly the mouse becomes a pseudo analog stick for flight steering, turning the Archwing into something more traditional like a fighter jet, in its flight capabilities. Allowing for a more dog-fight kind of feel. With the toggle between the two modes, this would allow for both high speed maneuvering with flight mode, and high accuracy and increased maneuverability at slower speeds with hover mode. 

Think something like a VTOL, swapping between high speed and hovering. 

 

Anyway, let me know what you think? Its just an idea i had and felt the need to share. 

I think this is an excellent idea. I'd like to add, however, that the secondary flight mode (what we have in-game now) still needs polish--specifically with regards to its animation.

When AW first came out, I couldn't get enough of it. "I'm a space-ninja! Darty and zoomy and shooty and cool!" It wasn't realistic, but it made me feel like I was in a pulpy sci-fi action sequence. A big part of that was due to the excellent quick-roll animation. Sure, mouse-based movement didn't have context-sensitive animations to accompany the strafing, but it worked because everything else was so great.

Now mouse-based movement is all we have; what was once a small part of the experience has become the main show. Yet it wasn't given the care and attention it deserves. Instead of responding to our movements (like, say, shifting weight into a turn), our frames and archwings are static. It might be realistic in the vacuum of space, but it feels -wrong- given the context. Dramatic and over-the-top, Warframe's animations bring our silly fantasies to life in a way that mechanics alone couldn't. I think it's part of the reason the AW changes worked on paper, but didn't on patch day. The mouse-based movements needed art to sell the experience. Without them, it's like we're playing a map in alpha.

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I got worried when I saw Rebecca playing The War Within quest, and how she jumped into Archwing mode. I thought oh no, I'm not going to get to play this mission... but after trying an AW mission again, have they changed it any? Cuz I actually finished a mission!  I wasn't going all wonky and spinning around everywhere. Up was up, and down was down (most of the time). Plus I didn't get sick! Maybe a little dizzy occasionally, but definitely not sick. And I could find the enemies shooting at me too!
Something has changed, cuz it wasn't this way when they first changed it to Barfwing. It still doesn't feel like the original Archwing, but it's a step in the right direction.

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Yea, Archwings flight model feels different in the last week. Flight speed seems to drop allot when you're making sharp turns now. Still floats uncontrollably way too much when turning

Maybe im more used to the movement now. I've done some rush + trench tiles since and its still the same smashing into a wall and flipping upside on every turn. But open tiles seem more playable.
It feels like cornering is now speed sensitive. In other words the more you turn the more speed your archwing scrubs off.

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Changes I want to see:

 

Zoom out the base zoom.

Zoom out further when melee homing attacking.

 

Use the old system for Corpus maps (you can explain it that the ship is generating a strong enough gravitational field from somewhere within.  After all, we have plenty of gravity on "ship" and asteroid tilesets.  Something must be generating it.  Hell, Lua has way stronger gravity than you would expect.  Orokin tech must be increasing it.)

 

For open space tilesets, add a roll binding.  We have shift+space for afterburners, why not control+space for roll pivot?  While holding control + space together, your mouse X changes from yaw to roll (since Q and E are already in heavy use.)

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On 09/07/2016 at 2:17 AM, PureIcarus said:

---The new 6 Axis Control for archwing is Highly disorientating, Combined with the placement of the camera way too close to the back of the archwing, Archwing is actually worse than it was before. The new game modes Pursuit and Rush are no better.

my personnal feeling about it is the problem is pursuit and rush mode not really the worse mission type, in my opinion its more about the archwing controls revamp making things unnecessairly difficult. like when you re trying to rush from point A to B it feels like you have very little control making you bounce and/or get stuck on walls or you completely miss very large doorways. infact it feels like trying to control a bar of soap on a wet floor most of the time... and when i m not getting bounced around like a pinball, the  random axis rotations make it nausiating and for some people causes motion sickness when not completely disorienting like purelcarus meantionned.

dont get me wrong, i appreciate alot what DE staff are trying do as well as the work they put into this game. unfortunatly some thing work great, others not so great

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I feel like puking each time I play archwing

what the hell happened to it? it's a hassle trying to figure out how to return to normal position

the minimap doesn't help you, and once you're upside down you are completely lost, and traveling through tunnels is even worst than before

I feel like a slug now in melee form

We are stationary sitting in our chair when we play, but when our screen and everything disorientates itself... that's not good for gaming, especially when we don't have full control of our camera. 

 

but seeing how this thread was started in july and it's november now
I guess things won't change soon

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