iceyShardZ Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 minute ago, pavlo555 said: It's not that enemy levels do differ by a small shot on all planets. It's just that how they scale. You literally ask for what DE works on right now. how they scale is good,but the base needs to get a 30% to 40% boost,that would make grinding,for people such as i at least,MUCH more fun,you would feel that you actually did something with the 40 - 60 minutes you just spent,so i think that would definitely satisfy a lot of people,and will allow us to play more kinds of missions. i would also suggest boosting the exp boost at the end of spy missions,and sabotage missions dependin on the amount of data/caches received :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceyShardZ Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, ra9una said: I think DE can still work on the current system. Experimenting with it a little may give birth to something both balanced in terms of farm-ability and enjoyable. That said, I won't be completely up in arms if they revert to the old system. this new system definitely has some potential,DE should honestly just see this thread,read the opinions,take them into consideration,and think of a solution that fits both opinions,correct? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ra9una Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 minute ago, iceyShardZ said: this new system definitely has some potential,DE should honestly just see this thread,read the opinions,take them into consideration,and think of a solution that fits both opinions,correct? :) Seems like a reasonable approach to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavlo555 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 minute ago, iceyShardZ said: how they scale is good,but the base needs to get a 30% to 40% boost,that would make grinding,for people such as i at least,MUCH more fun,you would feel that you actually did something with the 40 - 60 minutes you just spent,so i think that would definitely satisfy a lot of people,and will allow us to play more kinds of missions. i would also suggest boosting the exp boost at the end of spy missions,and sabotage missions dependin on the amount of data/caches received :) Then, not we but the newbies would hitthe problem - they would get way too overwhelmed and will have to progress faster. I did not progress as fast as new player, but was completely satisfied with what I got at that time. Imagine already having all 30 level mk1 weapons as you get baked through the beginners quest? All these buffs "sound" good btu they are not exactly that good. Scaling is what makes higher-end planets more valuable because you get higher level enemies and more exp. Buffing the whole 40% exp would give us 80-400 exp per killing a level 1 enemy and that would make us get to rank 30s so fast that, you know, until you find some bosses that drop warframes, you would already get bored even with two frames on-hand. We can't just go ahead and buff the base chance by such a large margin. Working on scaling would be a better solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RedChili69 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 The new system is infinitely better. Having to run around the same void mission over and over and over, fighting the same enemies over and over and over, wasting 20 minutes in a TV Survival and getting a stupid forma blueprint, is what is boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceyShardZ Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, pavlo555 said: Then, not we but the newbies would hitthe problem - they would get way too overwhelmed and will have to progress faster. I did not progress as fast as new player, but was completely satisfied with what I got at that time. Imagine already having all 30 level mk1 weapons as you get baked through the beginners quest? All these buffs "sound" good btu they are not exactly that good. Scaling is what makes higher-end planets more valuable because you get higher level enemies and more exp. Buffing the whole 40% exp would give us 80-400 exp per killing a level 1 enemy and that would make us get to rank 30s so fast that, you know, until you find some bosses that drop warframes, you would already get bored even with two frames on-hand. We can't just go ahead and buff the base chance by such a large margin. Working on scaling would be a better solution. then you could also suggest exp gain increase by mastery rank :) there are many ways to solve this im sure and also if you get from a level 1 enemy 56 exp,with a 40% boost,you would just get 78,that is not THAT fast,therefore,the higher enemy level you face,the better the exp as well,and it makes sense because it would work on precentages,so for example an enemy that gives 156 exp,would now give 218,and that i think,is a reasonable boost indeed :) Edited July 13, 2016 by iceyShardZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarmongerExtraordinare Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 guess they also should On 12.07.2016 at 9:10 PM, FrostDragoon said: Have any mission that would award a Lith F1 relic instead just randomly roll from the loot table for that relic: lets also make it possible to choose what exactly you want or even better - a whole piece of gear, like a complete weapon or warframe and make then lvl 30 instantly! yea, sounds casual enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)RedChili69 Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 26 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said: It's not bias. It's simple logic. That trash argument gets burned to the ground in two words: Opportunity Cost. These two words did not burn any argument to the ground, try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceyShardZ Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, DioBrandoTheHotVampire said: guess they also should lets also make it possible to choose what exactly you want or even better - a whole piece of gear, like a complete weapon or warframe and make then lvl 30 instantly! yea, sounds casual enough hmm,yeah i kind of disagreed with him on that,then again,im more concerned about the exp gain and lack of variety,then the void problem,yet i am concerned about the void problem too,right now i can't really think of a good solution :P except maybe for what that other guy said about fissures making us jump in-to the void,that might be interesting :) Edited July 13, 2016 by iceyShardZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 14 minutes ago, (PS4)RedChili69 said: These two words did not burn any argument to the ground, try again. It really does for anyone who knows what those words mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 15 minutes ago, DioBrandoTheHotVampire said: guess they also should lets also make it possible to choose what exactly you want or even better - a whole piece of gear, like a complete weapon or warframe and make then lvl 30 instantly! yea, sounds casual enough Nothing like a nice False Equivalence to show that you have nothing of value to add. Thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kigok Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 Just accept it, DE wont probably notice this thread and it will die off soon. That's the harsh truth, have happened to me in many communitys. They wont listen to the players. They're not happy with the fanbase they have, they want more people. That's what i think tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacabreHaze Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 42 minutes ago, (PS4)RedChili69 said: The new system is infinitely better. Having to run around the same void mission over and over and over, fighting the same enemies over and over and over, wasting 20 minutes in a TV Survival and getting a stupid forma blueprint, is what is boring. This is quite false information. The new system might be better, but the old system was nothing like what you just described and the new system doesn't exactly change from your complains of the old system either. Cause yes a Tower IV Survival (I am assuming that is what TV Survival means) does produces a chance of a forma BP at 20 minutes, You still have 3 other items you scored before it. Now you spend 10 minutes in a survival mission, try to complete a secondary objective while not failing at the primary, If you fail the secondary, you fail the entire mission. And you get one item. Which could be a forma BP fairly easily We had a mission where everyone rolled forma BP, and we kept rolling Forma BP every mission after for about 5 missions in a row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, (PS4)RedChili69 said: The new system is infinitely better. Having to run around the same void mission over and over and over, fighting the same enemies over and over and over, wasting 20 minutes in a TV Survival and getting a stupid forma blueprint, is what is boring. Seems these issues are even worse now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maicael Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 1 hour ago, iceyShardZ said: how they scale is good,but the base needs to get a 30% to 40% boost,that would make grinding,for people such as i at least,MUCH more fun,you would feel that you actually did something with the 40 - 60 minutes you just spent,so i think that would definitely satisfy a lot of people,and will allow us to play more kinds of missions. i would also suggest boosting the exp boost at the end of spy missions,and sabotage missions dependin on the amount of data/caches received :) Boost objective XP and nerf XP from killing enemies. Make 5 minutes/rounds count as an objective maybe with some scaling or based on AABC rotation. You mentioned boosting Spy vaults on Lua to 7k XP. I'm not sure what Lua gives, but Sedna gives 10,300 XP per data. Vaults on the old Ceres each gave 12k XP not to mention what you can get with the 500% XP stealth multiplier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 13, 2016 Author Share Posted July 13, 2016 Fairly sure that stealth multiplier doesn't apply to objectives, but I think just boosting objective exp alone is enough. You don't need to nerf kill exp on top of it. Either way, that's really a separate topic and not necessarily a Void 2.0 issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeonNemesis Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 I still think the best solution would be a mix from the old Void and the new one, You do the mission like in the old Void and at the end of each wave/5 minutes/mission you get a default prime part along with 3 other options, if you change for the options you consume the relic. This way the end game returns and ppl who miss the void get it back while keeping the good aspects of the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maicael Posted July 13, 2016 Share Posted July 13, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said: Fairly sure that stealth multiplier doesn't apply to objectives, but I think just boosting objective exp alone is enough. You don't need to nerf kill exp on top of it. Either way, that's really a separate topic and not necessarily a Void 2.0 issue. No, stealth multipliers don't apply to objectives, but they're also not obtainable on enemies in endless missions since they're always alert. Nerfing XP from enemies killed would make the awfully boring Draco meta less appealing to replicate instead of just playing the node, or change how shared XP works for kills. As for the Void, I really just see this as a test and seeing ideas of where players would like to go from here. As admitted by Steve, it wasn't very complete, but had to be released. There's not much right now, but there's plenty of variations they could start implementing and randomizing. I already like that we go to tilesets that aren't the Void, but they could make it like the old Void Sabotage with changing tilesets. When Spy 2.0 was released we had 6 vaults with the same 3 per faction. We're now up to 21 or so different vaults on different tilesets. Just need to give DE time to do the same with Void 2.0. Pretty sure there was also a lot of hate for the removal of coptering when Parkour 2.0 was introduced. Now movement is much better than it ever was. Edited July 13, 2016 by Maicael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 I think trying to change the "meta"--or more realistically, how players think/play--is a waste of developer time. I see so many games slowly kill themselves in this endeavor, and it boils down to players getting tired of devs trying to undermine them rather than letting them just play. This is doubly true when an established practice gets specifically targeted (nerfed) to "encourage" other things. The best way to encourage those things is to make them more appealing. Positive reinforcement trumps negative. Every time. Beyond that, "encourage" shouldn't be a euphemism for "force." Let people play how they want. As for Void 2.0 specifically, I sincerely hope this is just a badly released alpha phase and not the direction they intend for it to go, and that's the actual reason for my OP--it was much less about sh**ing on this new system and more about proposing a more attractive alternative. Here are the current Tier 1 drop lists: Spoiler Lith A1 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Kiliken (Venus,Excavation), RotationB Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation), RotationB Tikal (Earth, Excavation) Bode (Ceres, Spy) Shklovsky (Phobos,Spy) Orokin DerelictSurvival, Rotation A Vasto Prime ReceiverBraton Prime BarrelForma Blueprint Saryn Prime Neuroptics BlueprintVectis Prime Blueprint Akstiletto Prime Blueprint Lith F1 Kiliken (Venus,Excavation) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation), RotationB Unda (Venus, Spy) Orokin DerelictDefense, Rotation A Cambria (Earth, Spy) Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Fang Prime BladeParis Prime BlueprintForma Blueprint Odonata Prime BlueprintScindo Prime Blueprint Fragor Prime Blueprint Lith F2 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation), RotationB Martialis (Mars,Excavation), RotationB Odonata Prime Systems BlueprintHikou Prime StarsParis Prime Upper Limb Burston Prime BarrelFang Prime Handle Vauban Prime Blueprint Lith M1 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Kiliken (Venus,Excavation) Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation), RotationB Bode (Ceres, Spy) Boar Prime ReceiverLex Prime ReceiverForma Blueprint Dakra Prime BlueprintSoma Prime Blueprint Mag Prime Blueprint Lith S1 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Kiliken (Venus,Excavation) Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation) RotationB Bronco Prime BlueprintHikou Prime BlueprintParis Prime String Paris Prime GripForma Blueprint Spira Prime Pouch Lith S2 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Kiliken (Venus,Excavation) Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation), RotationB Akkad (Eris,Defense), Rotation A Bode (Ceres, Spy) Akbronco Prime BlueprintNyx Prime BlueprintCarrier Prime Systems Kavasa Prime BandForma Blueprint Soma Prime Stock Lith V1 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Kiliken (Venus,Excavation) RotationB Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation) Lith (Earth, Defense),Rotation C Tikal (Earth,Excavation) Sinai (Jupiter,Survival) Rotation A Paris Prime Lower LimbBurston Prime StockParis Prime Upper Limb Volt Prime Systems BlueprintForma Blueprint Fragor Prime They can keep the relics as they are, get rid of fissures entirely, and simply apply the suggestion in my OP. For example, let's say I go to Cervantes on Earth (Excavation), and I equip a Lith M1 key for the mission. The drop table for that specific run would change to that key's table: Quote Lith M1 Suisei (Mercury, Spy) Kiliken (Venus,Excavation) Unda (Venus, Spy) Cervantes (Earth,Excavation), RotationB Bode (Ceres, Spy) Boar Prime ReceiverLex Prime ReceiverForma Blueprint Dakra Prime BlueprintSoma Prime Blueprint Mag Prime Blueprint You would still have the normal chance for credits and cores, but any time a key would have been awarded, it draws from this pool instead (and randomly rolls the reward). If multiple people bring keys, it increases the odds that a key reward will come up instead of credits/cores. -Endless missions regain their meaning. -Non-Endless missions can still be a fast, instant reward (like capture missions), but this reduces their efficiency per key, and that's fine. -Void regains its meaning without being the default/best option. -Non-Void has meaning because it's all T3/T4, so you have to go to star chart for T1/T2 missions. There are a host of other benefits this system would entail with very few drawbacks, but the biggest one, by far, is this: It gets away from the extreme boredom/repetition of Fissures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavlo555 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 12 hours ago, iceyShardZ said: then you could also suggest exp gain increase by mastery rank :) there are many ways to solve this im sure and also if you get from a level 1 enemy 56 exp,with a 40% boost,you would just get 78,that is not THAT fast,therefore,the higher enemy level you face,the better the exp as well,and it makes sense because it would work on precentages,so for example an enemy that gives 156 exp,would now give 218,and that i think,is a reasonable boost indeed :) Enemies on higher levels already give around ~250 exp per Elite lancer on ODE. Sure we need to boost that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 Like I said, exp rates are a separate issue. If you guys want to open a new topic to discuss it and drop the link here for those who are interested, that would be fine, but it's definitely off-topic in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 You know, I never did get an answer to the question, "Why do we need Fissures?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Zoltan6201 Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 On 7/13/2016 at 9:37 AM, FrostDragoon said: Not just that, but most things in old void had at least 5% drop rate, but the rare stuff in fissures has a 2% base chance, so solo play is just awful now. Recruit used to be a place to find people to go hunt down specific parts, but now everything is so spread out and random that it's a crapshoot to get anything done. I play in a clan of 1, and that's just for the trading post. It's really sh** now that my progression is so largely tied to random strangers. I never minded having randoms as an extra thing in my runs, but having them as a required thing is terrible--especially when it's way harder to get them together in the first place. DE strikes again. They mask the changes in order to penalize the player base. Lowering the well documented and abysmally low drop rates is unconscionable. They should, in the very least, indicate the actual numerical drop reat and not some graphical line. It hides the true data that players should be aware of before they enter a mission. Perhaps it's not done in other games. Perhaps it is, I do not know, but I believe they should have full transparency and not be afraid to post those numbers. Do they even realize that players are their customers? If they really truly mean that they want to decrease the grind and be player-friendly, then they should get listen to player opinions and think outside of the box. Stop having secrets. Make the game more informative for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDragoon Posted July 14, 2016 Author Share Posted July 14, 2016 Quote They should, in the very least, indicate the actual numerical drop reat and not some graphical line. More transparency on the item list for the relics would be really nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlakiNuva Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 On 7/13/2016 at 3:52 PM, (PS4)RedChili69 said: The new system is infinitely better. Having to run around the same void mission over and over and over, fighting the same enemies over and over and over, wasting 20 minutes in a TV Survival and getting a stupid forma blueprint, is what is boring. In terms of time consumption, I agree that the new system is better. But as it is, while there's more variety in terms of tilesets and mission types, void fissures always work the same in every alert, and that's bound to get boring at some point. More variety in how they work would be nice, as would either not having to choose just one of four rewards or not using up rewards that nobody picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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