Adding Archwing slot limitation without warning was not fair to players.

[TheLexiConArtist]

While I am ambivalent to whether or not Archwings and their weapons should be limited with a platinum-purchased slot count, it was strictly disingenuous of DE to put this limitation on players without any warning.

 

As all the old weapons and wings were grandfathered in, if fair warning was given, I'm sure many people would've actually gotten around to farming and building the missing gear; in the current situation players have been underhandedly extorted platinum they had no reasonable expectation of spending for the slots they still required.

 

I suggest that Archwing slot limits/pricing be removed until War Within and a very clear statement and warning of this being the case from then onwards to be given. Not on Reddit, not just on a devstream or Prime Time. A news post, at least.

This does of course mean that some people will need to be refunded and a few will get bonus slots for the new Archwing and weapons added in Specters of the Rail, if they build them before War Within, but it's not about the platinum profits/costs. It's about engaging your customer base in a clear and fair way.

[Elurdin]

I agree with this post, what would be fair if everyone has been gives number of slots that there were weapons previously, so if there were lets say 15 weapons in total thats how much slots should new player get.

[LSG501]

As much as I like the sentiment, considering the amount of oxium needed for some of the archwings they'd have to give a long period of warning for a lot of people...
oxium is literally the hardest thing to get outside of argon crystals and tellerium (also needed in some cases iirc) for me and many others. 

[Salenstormwing]

It's annoying, but considering how it's not any more or less expensive than the usual Weapon and/or Warframe slots, it's not that bad. Does it suck they didn't mention it? Yes. But asking for them to remove it, that seems a bit far fetched.

I'd suggest giving everyone at least 2 free slots as compensation for not being informed, or a plat-equivalent being added to each player. It wouldn't be a lot, but some people might not need the slots if they've already purchased them.

If you're really hurting for those slots, go trade a few Prime parts for the plat.

But it's Archwing. It's nice, but it's still Archwing.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, Salenstormwing said:

It's annoying, but considering how it's not any more or less expensive than the usual Weapon and/or Warframe slots, it's not that bad. Does it suck they didn't mention it? Yes. But asking for them to remove it, that seems a bit far fetched.

Temporarily remove to give a fair warning period. Like I said, it's not about the costs (or DE's profits). It's the manner in which it was slipped in under the radar.

[Salenstormwing]

Just now, EDYinnit said:

Temporarily remove to give a fair warning period. Like I said, it's not about the costs (or DE's profits). It's the manner in which it was slipped in under the radar.

It's easier to offer compensation than it would be to go back, turn it off, make an official statement, turn it back on at a certain point in time, then proceed.

At any point in time, someone would be effected negatively by them doing it the way you're suggesting. You do it the way I suggest, it gets it done 1 time, and we can wipe our hands of the issue. I've already paid for slots. They'd have to refund everyone as well with your plan. Add that to the list of things that would have to be done.

It makes more sense and takes up MUCH less time if they just do it my way.

Plus, if you really wanted those Archwing items, you should have been using/getting them. If you didn't want to do that work back in the day, it's not really DE's fault except for not telling you it was coming.

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

It's easier to offer compensation than it would be to go back, turn it off, make an official statement, turn it back on at a certain point in time, then proceed.

At any point in time, someone would be effected negatively by them doing it the way you're suggesting. You do it the way I suggest, it gets it done 1 time, and we can wipe our hands of the issue. I've already paid for slots. They'd have to refund everyone as well with your plan. Add that to the list of things that would have to be done.

It makes more sense and takes up MUCH less time if they just do it my way.

Plus, if you really wanted those Archwing items, you should have been using/getting them. If you didn't want to do that work back in the day, it's not really DE's fault except for not telling you it was coming.

Well, that suggestion of yours (2 slots) hurts people who had more missing than that (could be unbuilt, not just unfarmed). Nothing is perfect, but it wouldn't be difficult to script against purchase histories (which DE does have free access to) and return plat spent on Archwing/Arch-weapon slots either. I'm not saying that my suggestion is the only absolute path, as long as the mess is addressed appropriately.

 

Personally, I had atrocious luck in Caelus, and between grinding out for those items (Centaur please) and handling the rest of the game, Void grinding and all, I never got the opportunity to clean out Archwing Defense (you know, the one they deleted for being so unpopular) but I figured I'd have chance eventually. There was no urgency because there was no indication of a change like this.

 

What's next? Cosmetic slots? You can build a bunch of helmets from alerts, so it's not like it'd be immune because only plat-bought market gear goes in that tab.

[ra9una]

Personally, the lack of a warning has little to do with my frustration. Archwing is not a popular game mode and slots won't help it's case. Even as someone who really likes archwing, it's such a limited part of the game that I can't justify putting plat into it. It's a pretty insignificant change to the game, but slots are globally not a positive feature and that stands out much more in a minor game mode.

[Salenstormwing]

1 minute ago, EDYinnit said:

Well, that suggestion of yours (2 slots) hurts people who had more missing than that (could be unbuilt, not just unfarmed). Nothing is perfect, but it wouldn't be difficult to script against purchase histories (which DE does have free access to) and return plat spent on Archwing/Arch-weapon slots either. I'm not saying that my suggestion is the only absolute path, as long as the mess is addressed appropriately.

 

Personally, I had atrocious luck in Caelus, and between grinding out for those items (Centaur please) and handling the rest of the game, Void grinding and all, I never got the opportunity to clean out Archwing Defense (you know, the one they deleted for being so unpopular) but I figured I'd have chance eventually. There was no urgency because there was no indication of a change like this.

 

What's next? Cosmetic slots? You can build a bunch of helmets from alerts, so it's not like it'd be immune because only plat-bought market gear goes in that tab.

Caelus was absolutely the worst. I still don't have the Phaedra. But that happens. I just find that the faster, simpler solution is going to be the easiest one to convince devs towards. There's no sense in being super complicated when it's easier for them to offer up some plat for folks to buy archwing slots on (or something else if they don't want it), than to roll back everything to pre-Archwing slots, refund everyone, make a statement, then wait and do the thing they've already done all over again. That's complex and takes time. Somedays it's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. This is one of those times. And some plat for everyone would do well to ease over that pain.

Quick & simple is more likely to get done than long and boring and complex. That's why hotfixes come out faster than full reworks on warframes.

[Arkvold]

14 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

Plus, if you really wanted those Archwing items, you should have been using/getting them. If you didn't want to do that work back in the day, it's not really DE's fault except for not telling you it was coming.

No, it's totally DE's fault for not telling us it was coming.  Had we been publicly warned, we might have changed our play styles to get that arch-gear before slots were implemented.  I certainly would have.  As it stands, we thought we had all the time in the world - then this was sprung on us,  To use myself as an example, I own only 1 additional wing (odonata prime) and 1 additional weapon (grattler) and I'll be paying for slots for almost all of the rest.

if a company is going to start charging me for something that was formerly free, I expect to be given notice and sufficient time to prepare.  If not, I'm going to call that deal underhanded, and if it keeps happening, I'm not going to do business with that company.  Further...

 

Just now, ra9una said:

 Archwing is not a popular game mode and slots won't help it's case. Even as someone who really likes archwing, it's such a limited part of the game that I can't justify putting plat into it. It's a pretty insignificant change to the game, but slots are globally not a positive feature and that stands out much more in a minor game mode.

ra9una makes a good point here.  Archwing is, and always has been, a niche game mode.  By and large, people play it for the things that are only available via it (Atlas, Limbo, Tellurium), or if it's required for a mission (Submersible Archwing, Jordas Verdict raid).  Otherwise, most players I know forget it exists, or dread playing it.  Slots are one of the cheesiest platinum sinks in this game (a fact that's mollified only by the fact that they're relatively cheap) and adding them to a sub-game mode of marginal popularity is a questionable decision at best.

[Varacal]

if you think about it, it should've been there in the first place, everything has slots, so it makes sense that archwing stuffs should have need for slots too

Edited July 15, 2016 by Varacal

[Marine027]

For those who not realize, you sitll had that much slots free for the old weaposn that existed, as far i saw it tehy only limited them now for the new weapons since more will come now, also you can sell oyur old ones now like all other weapons, and srsly 12 plat again for 2 slots, sell 3 prime items or mods or whatever.

[Arkvold]

3 minutes ago, Varacal said:

It should've been there in the first place

Honestly, I'd agree with this.

Problem is, it wasn't.  Then it was changed without warning.  I'm okay with exceptions not following the general rule-of-thumb, but if all of a sudden an exception that we've gotten used to is changed to follow the rule without warning, it's more than a little off-putting.

It's the lack of any warning that's the real issue here.  It needs to be made very clear that this kind of behavior is not okay for a corporation that wishes to keep its customers.  I mean, sure, it's cheap slots now, but if this kind of stuff keeps happening because people just overlooked it, don't say I didn't warn you.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Arkvold

[Ciaus]

Agreed. 
It's not like I needed a 400th reason to not play Archwing. 
Now Itzal costs 12 plat and 9000 oxium.
Lol. 

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

 Im glad I read this as I might have time to farm something at least before I get the console update.

[Salenstormwing]

5 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

No, it's totally DE's fault for not telling us it was coming.  Had we been publicly warned, we might have changed our play styles to get that arch-gear before slots were implemented.  I certainly would have.  As it stands, we thought we had all the time in the world - then this was sprung on us,  To use myself as an example, I own only 1 additional wing (odonata prime) and 1 additional weapon (grattler) and I'll be paying for slots for almost all of the rest.

if a company is going to start charging me for something that was formerly free, I expect to be given notice and sufficient time to prepare.  If not, I'm going to call that deal underhanded, and if it keeps happening, I'm not going to do business with that company.  Further...

 

ra9una makes a good point here.  Archwing is, and always has been, a niche game mode.  By and large, people play it for the things that are only available via it (Atlas, Limbo, Tellurium), or if it's required for a mission (Submersible Archwing, Jordas Verdict raid).  Otherwise, most players I know forget it exists, or dread playing it.  Slots are one of the cheesiest platinum sinks in this game (a fact that's mollified only by the fact that they're relatively cheap) and adding them to a sub-game mode of marginal popularity is a questionable decision at best.

Well, uh, good news everybody! You can have your public warning... if you're playing on XB1 or PS4. Welcome to the wonderful land of Warframe on PC, where we get to be the test subjects for the other two versions.

I still say that the fastest method is going to be your best option. DE isn't going to roll back their changes. The best thing to do would be the one least painful for everyone. And that's my suggestion.

Now listen, if you find it horrible what happened, that's fine. But just know that compared to other F2P games, Warframe is the most fair when it comes to how they operate and making things not P2W. So, if getting compensated isn't good enough, I can't suggest anything else for you. Just don't play World of Tanks, because those tank slots are gunna cost you a lot more than it would cost you for a warframe slot.

[NightElve]

8 minutes ago, Varacal said:

if you think about it, it should've been there in the first place, everything has slots, so it makes sense that archwing stuffs should have need for slots too

if that's the case, i'm willing o wait till 2030 for Archwing to get a refinement that is suitable for me.. before update i had only 3 Archwing parts, Frame and 2 weapons, now to buy plat to play something that i don't enjoy? Difficult,im stuck at MR 20 because of Archwing gears, i have enough plat but it just doesn't feel worth it. But that's how i feel..

 

[Coach-Aprax]

Less and less people are playing archwing. Making people to buy slots for wings and weapons, well, even less will play from now on.

[Neothel]

4 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

Just don't play World of Tanks, because those tank slots are gunna cost you a lot more than it would cost you for a warframe slot.

We are playing Warframe, not World of Tanks. And that change was fishy. I don´t care about that, have enough Weapons or plat for Slots. But its still a fishy change for me.

And its a step into the direction of those not so fair Free2Play Games. Just a small step, but if you do enough the result will be the same...

[plexus_brachialis]

6 minutes ago, Varacal said:

if you think about it, it should've been there in the first place, everything has slots, so it makes sense that archwing stuffs should have need for slots too

then they should've put it from beginning. archwing was very hyped before it came out, and all the other issues aside, if it was handled like vanilla game is, ie 2 warframe and 5(dont remember exactly, correct me if i'm wrong) weapons slots free when you're starting, no one would've questioned it. 

DE could've and should've handled this better

[Arkvold]

16 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

... But just know that compared to other F2P games, Warframe is the most fair when it comes to how they operate and making things not P2W. ... Just don't play World of Tanks, because those tank slots are gunna cost you a lot more than it would cost you for a warframe slot.

This is precisely why we're bringing it up and making a fuss over it.

So that Warframe doesn't become World of Tanks.  Believe me, I've seen it happen.

In Champions Online, they gutted the crafting system so that they could put devices that were previously available via crafting in the cash shop, and nobody complained publicly.  They made freeform characters subscription-only, limiting free players to Archetype characters with pre-selected powers, and nobody complained publicly.  They hyped vehicles for literal years and when they were finally released, they were cash-shop only, and nobody complained publicly.  Now the game is a typical Perfect World Entertainment game, full of lockboxes that drop constantly instead of real loot, that you need Cash Shop keys in order to open.  Full of pay-to-win BS, where purchasing a Silver Freeform Character Slot (which allows you to make a Freeform character as a non-subscriber) costs more than a month-and-a-half of subscription time.

I do not want to see Warframe go down that road.  It has all-but-killed Champions Online.  So when they start doing things that smack of cash-shop gouging, I raise the alarm.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Arkvold

[chaotea]

To be fair they did say it was something that was never intended to be free.

[Salenstormwing]

6 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

This is precisely why we're bringing it up and making a fuss over it.

So that Warframe doesn't become World of Tanks.  Believe me, I've seen it happen.

I do not want to see Warframe go down that road.  It has all-but-killed Champions Online.  So when they start doing things that smack of cash-shop gouging, I raise the alarm.

That's fine. But, like I said, there are limits to what you should expect DE to do in order to make things better. Also, 12 plat for a slot is hardly cash-shop gouging, no more than it already is in the base game for buying Weapon, Warframe, or Sentinel slots.

And the fact that you can trade Plat for in-game items also helps lower the injury rate on 12 plat.

So if you want to be upset, sure, but be realistic in what you think DE will do in order to make things better "for you". Because demanding it get rolled back the changes for X-amount of time so folks can play a game mode they weren't playing to begin with, yeah, I don't see it happening.

[CrazyCatLad]

Yup, lots of sleazy/slimy things about this update.

 

Inventory monetization is a cancer unto Free to Plays.

[Thaumatos]

All arguments aside, here's the bottom line for DE:

ALWAYS announce ANY changes that are related to players paying money for ANYTHING.

 

 

Listen...we're all sympathetic to DE making money.  They need to make money to stay afloat...to keep the game alive.  It's important.  But you absolutely cannot make changes to what is and isn't free without saying something.  Even if it's a cost change to an invisible cosmetic (aka utterly pointless), you should still say something.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Thaumatos