Adding Archwing slot limitation without warning was not fair to players.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I think the best solution would be to have archwings use warframe inventory and arch-weapons use normal weapon inventory.

The amount of gear that comes out for archwing is pretty small. If a player decides they just don't like a piece of arching gear (e.g. I just don't care for the eleytron just like I didn't care for hydroid or zephyr) I can sell it and use that space for EITHER a new archwing or warframe. It doesn't change the total number of spaces needed, but it makes the inventory spaces themselves a more versatile, valuable purchase.

[SetAbominae]

DE isn't going to address this, they're busy with whatever it is they're doing.

That and well, when you have a community composed of a high percentage of yes-men, the company pulling underhanded bull is almost guaranteed.

It's not even a problem only WF suffers, there's tons of bad decisions being made all across the board in gaming and other ambits which are supported by yes men; that and the current "societal meta" being just hanging around your favourite echo chamber does not help make anything better.

So again, why would anyone at DE go out of their way to say "sorry, we dun goof'd" when they can do a devstream and get all their product evangelists happy with even more changes that have not been tought through, then have some same zealots pile up on anyone who says "this change be bad" and only get "positive feedback" instead of actual critiques about the game.

Besides let's be honest here, I'm not entirely sure why archwing is even a thing, it is basically an extremely dumbed down version of strike suit; and it shows, they should just replace it with something else entirely.

Edited September 16, 2016 by SetAbominae

[Chipputer]

Yes. Let's revert the change and then give warning about it. That way people with nothing better to do can just stack up as many archwings as they want to build and have, virtually, infinite free slots by virtue of simply having them grandfathered in due to what we already saw happen when they added the slots in the first place.

Bad move on DE's part? Sure. But this idea would essentially rob them of potential income.

[TheLexiConArtist]

8 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Yes. Let's revert the change and then give warning about it. That way people with nothing better to do can just stack up as many archwings as they want to build and have, virtually, infinite free slots by virtue of simply having them grandfathered in due to what we already saw happen when they added the slots in the first place.

Bad move on DE's part? Sure. But this idea would essentially rob them of potential income.

You mean, like....

On 31/07/2016 at 8:15 PM, (PS4)demishock said:

Can confirm. My clan is spending all of today farming for Archwing weapon parts now that we know this slot-purchasing addition is coming to consoles. Definitely agree that PC got shafted on this one.

Oh yeah. Consoles got that luxury.

 

Maybe it's too late for that now, but increasing the archweapon slot baseline to account for all the potential weapons previously obtainable is enough. Console players still got the luxury of overbuilt slots for wings and possibly weapons, sure, but at least nobody gets less than the minimum required to hold unique pre-existing gear. I only lacked three - three that involved a mode that was removed because it wasn't popular/enjoyable. Who can blame someone putting off grinding a reviled mode for as long as possible since there was no indication that you'd lose out by leaving it until later?

Other people could be lacking up to 11 unique weapons' slots. That's not exactly insignificant.

Edited September 16, 2016 by EDYinnit

[(PSN)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt]

On 7/15/2016 at 11:09 AM, EDYinnit said:

While I am ambivalent to whether or not Archwings and their weapons should be limited with a platinum-purchased slot count, it was strictly disingenuous of DE to put this limitation on players without any warning.

 

As all the old weapons and wings were grandfathered in, if fair warning was given, I'm sure many people would've actually gotten around to farming and building the missing gear; in the current situation players have been underhandedly extorted platinum they had no reasonable expectation of spending for the slots they still required.

 

I suggest that Archwing slot limits/pricing be removed until War Within and a very clear statement and warning of this being the case from then onwards to be given. Not on Reddit, not just on a devstream or Prime Time. A news post, at least.

This does of course mean that some people will need to be refunded and a few will get bonus slots for the new Archwing and weapons added in Specters of the Rail, if they build them before War Within, but it's not about the platinum profits/costs. It's about engaging your customer base in a clear and fair way.

I am on PS4, exactly what is this post about?

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)dA_BLoK_iS_hOt said:

I am on PS4, exactly what is this post about?

Slots for Archwings and Arch-weapons used to just come with the gear. You built it, claimed it, it would have a slot without any extra purchase ever necessary.

When Specters of the Rail hit and brought new Archwing gear, with no warning, this was changed to players having 4 Archwing slots (fine, as there were 4 Archwings previously available) and 4 Arch-weapon slots (15 previously obtainable).

 

Essentially, the need to buy up to 11 slots was forced on players without warning. Worse, because consoles get updates later, console players did get the warning, allowing them to not only fill out their collection in advance of the limitation, but build extra Archwing gear for free slots; effectively indirectly farming platinum without having to trade it from other players, since they could just sell the excess gear and keep the slots that got grandfathered in.

 

For 2 months I've been trying to get PC players some fair recompense for the matter. The most that DE have touched upon it is @[DE]Steve saying "Surprise!" in regards to the change on a Prime Time.

[TheScytale]

Why would they compensate, or do anything about it, if you had all this time to get the weapons and didn't get them?

If you didn't invest in AW in the first place, why are you asking for compensation or anything of the sort? 

The only problem I would see with this is console players hoarding AW gear in advance knowing what's gonna happen. And if DE did tell us about it beforehand, we would be hoarding those items too, and this would be the source of another problem, because why would some people have 10 AW slots for free, while the average newbie who joins a month later gets only 1-2.

You know, when you pay for slots, you're paying for that space you're allocating on DE's servers. If you were a game studio that wants to make money before anything, I doubt you'd go "Hey guys, those slots were free because we didn't have that much AW gear, but now we'll make you pay for the allocated space, so don't forget to hoard as many items as you can to get free space on our servers!"

Edited September 17, 2016 by TheScytale

[Arkvold]

48 minutes ago, TheScytale said:

Why would they compensate, or do anything about it, if you had all this time to get the weapons and didn't get them?

If you didn't invest in AW in the first place, why are you asking for compensation or anything of the sort? 

The problem is the lack of warning.  Some people didn't invest anything into Archwing because we felt we had plenty of time to do it without being limited.

 

Quote

The only problem I would see with this is console players hoarding AW gear in advance knowing what's gonna happen. And if DE did tell us about it beforehand, we would be hoarding those items too, and this would be the source of another problem, because why would some people have 10 AW slots for free, while the average newbie who joins a month later gets only 1-2.

This not only could happen, but did happen.  When Console players learned what happened to us, they began immediately hoarding Archwings and Archweapons so that they'd have plenty of extra slots when the restrictions hit.  This is what makes the lack of warning unfair - PC players have to suffer with it, but console players have the ability to avoid it.  They got warning, we didn't.  We were their warning.

 

Quote

You know, when you pay for slots, you're paying for that space you're allocating on DE's servers. If you were a game studio that wants to make money before anything, I doubt you'd go "Hey guys, those slots were free because we didn't have that much AW gear, but now we'll make you pay for the allocated space, so don't forget to hoard as many items as you can to get free space on our servers!"

Let's look at it from the flipside of this.  "Hey, you know that inventory for a niche game mode that a lot of people take pains to avoid, that didn't have slots, and you could stockpile all the gear you wanted in it?  Yeah, it's got slots now and we're going to make you pay for them.  Sucks to be you!"

Because, basically, that's what DE did to us.  If they wanted us to play Archwing more, this was not  the way to treat people who dislike it, or who were on the fence about it.  Of all the places to gouge your customer base, you don't hit them in a gamemode that's already regarded by marginal by a significant number of players.  That's asking to get it stigmatized even further, or even outright boycotted.

If you want to make money, respect your customers first.  Nickel-and-diming them every time an opportunity presents itself may make you more money in the short term, but it also generates ill-will and negative word-of-mouth, which may hurt you in the longer run.  If you can show your customers that you're willing to respect them and their investment of time and money in your game, they're often willing to invest more, or at the very least spread the word about you to others, which broadens your customer base.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Arkvold

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 hours ago, TheScytale said:

Why would they compensate, or do anything about it, if you had all this time to get the weapons and didn't get them?

If you didn't invest in AW in the first place, why are you asking for compensation or anything of the sort?

On 17/09/2016 at 0:43 AM, EDYinnit said:

I only lacked three - three that involved a mode that was removed because it wasn't popular/enjoyable. Who can blame someone putting off grinding a reviled mode for as long as possible since there was no indication that you'd lose out by leaving it until later?

Tell me again how I didn't invest into archwing in the first place? It took me forever to got all the parts from Interception as well because, you know, RNG. So with no warning of the status quo being changed, no extra motive to go getting those last few pieces immediately, yeah, sure I'll take a leisurely pace at grinding again in an even worse scenario and go do more of the neverending Void grind (gotta earn those Ducats too, y'know) as it was back then, in strong preference.

 

That's putting aside the fact that your argument is fallacious because consoles did get a premium currency based advantage over PC players by having the warning, as @Arkvold said, making the 'investment in Archwing' factor completely irrelevant. However much or little you might be inclined to fill those slots, they exist as a platinum valued entity nonetheless. If one platform of your playerbase can generate premium currency value on their account but another cannot, that isn't fair treatment.

 

Would you be happy as a PC player if, one day, existing (but not any subsequently released) cosmetics were made credit-purchasable on consoles while all existing and future cosmetics retained their platinum price on PC?

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I've now opened a support ticket on behalf of you, my PC player community brethren. Let's see if we can get an actual response that way.

Edited September 18, 2016 by EDYinnit
Let's see if a ticket gets their attention.

[Volinus7]

Something gonna bloom? We better add tax to it. It's the same as government. You feel it's unreasonable? Deal with it, they're the law.

Well if you say something like "I don't like this I will quit and take 5000 active friends with me" they might listen to you.

 

Injustice sucks but well...it's the part of humanity. 

[TheScytale]

I chose the wrong words. I know console players have been doing this "trick", and that's what I meant: the only thing I'd call problem in this situation is that console players got to hoard weapons in advance. If I were responsible of fixing this situation I'd make it so any unranked extra weapon will be removed from their inventory, with no free slot and with everything used in the building process refunded. 

However, I still think giving a free slot time-window, in order to give PC players their turn to hoard items, isn't the way to go. Two wrongs don't make a right. DE never promised to leave AW slots free forever. They're not obliged to inform anyone, because it's not a free service turned to paid service, slots were always meant to be paid for. It's as if a local parking garage let you put your bike there for free, then charged you after you brought a car. Our AW inventories just got so big that they're not negligible anymore, and we must pay for them to be stored. You're seeing this sudden pricing as an offense to players, I see the previous free slots as a courtesy or gift for playing this game mode before it became significant enough to matter.

 

PS: I was missing the Phaedra and Kaszas parts as well when SotR hit.

[ScorpioneITA]

Bet most don't read the ToS eulas etc.

Technically speaking, they can, they have, and they should if they see fit. The consumer has no voice in the matter. Just because they may have offered some voice in the past doesn't mean much.

Take any leading companies in any sector, do you think it matters what the consumer thinks? No way does it state that DE must inform you with any change they make. If there is, feel free to bring it up and sue them. I don't remember their ToS or eulas etc so I can't speak with certainty. But for a company not to have bullet proof laws... bit far fetched. 

[TheScytale]

On 18/09/2016 at 5:46 AM, ScorpioneITA said:

Bet most don't read the ToS eulas etc.

Technically speaking, they can, they have, and they should if they see fit. The consumer has no voice in the matter. Just because they may have offered some voice in the past doesn't mean much.

Yep, from the ToS: "Digital Extremes may revise the pricing for the Game or any item associated therewith at any time."

[Marine027]

1 hour ago, TheScytale said:

Yep, from the ToS: "Digital Extremes may revise the pricing for the Game or any item associated therewith at any time."

This sums it up and i can't understand people beeing that angry about it, its not like they charged people afterwards with the slots aswell.

Do you guys  also complain about buying something that is on sale the next week and want it for that price also now and want a refund?

It is marketing and they make decisions not everyone, like everywhere else on the world. This is how business works at times.

[TimFlint]

Archwing slots cost plat now?

ELL-OH-ELL. And now I'll never bother with AW at all anymore. Not like I was going to, because, you know, AW. If I want space combat I can boot up Freespace 2 or any of the games from the golden age of Space Combat Sims which are all so... SO far ahead of AW it's almost insulting.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 18/09/2016 at 4:46 AM, ScorpioneITA said:

Bet most don't read the ToS eulas etc.

Technically speaking, they can, they have, and they should if they see fit. The consumer has no voice in the matter. Just because they may have offered some voice in the past doesn't mean much.

Take any leading companies in any sector, do you think it matters what the consumer thinks? No way does it state that DE must inform you with any change they make. If there is, feel free to bring it up and sue them. I don't remember their ToS or eulas etc so I can't speak with certainty. But for a company not to have bullet proof laws... bit far fetched. 

ITT: People who think that blanket legal disclaimers mean you should never voice displeasure with an underhandedly executed change.

Turns out, no matter how legally sound your disclaimers are, if you pull moves that disgust your customers, you lose good faith, you disincline customers from purchasing or make them quit entirely, and you lose your income/game.

I'd rather not have that happen. But if the company can't muster up a fair response, or even a respectful acknowledgement that isn't essentially "sucks to be you", that's where that road leads.

 

Besides, if you want to talk about bulletproofing, per @TheScytale quoting the ToS, technically there was no 'archwing slot' or 'archweapon slot' item for which the price has been revised. An item has been invented and a cost not revised, but instantiated, the function of which is to expressly add cost and limit players where nothing existed before.

Loophole!

Edited September 20, 2016 by EDYinnit

[TheScytale]

@EDYinnit The price went from 0 to 12.

You can voice displeasure but.. What's the point? Like seriously what's the point? You're hoping DE gives you a refund for things you did not own? or a time-window to help you exploit their system?

Again, the only point on which I'm agreeing with you is how annoying it is that console players exploited this information. If they warned us like you're saying, it would've served nothing in DE's interests, absolutely nothing, because PC players would exploit this, and on top of that whiners will still whine because archwing slots cost plat and/or they couldn't exploit the new system and their buddies did.

Ask for reasonable things and think thoroughly before posting feedback, because right now you sound like that one middle-aged woman who's constantly angry at employees at the store.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 minutes ago, TheScytale said:

@EDYinnit The price went from 0 to 12.

You can voice displeasure but.. What's the point? Like seriously what's the point? You're hoping DE gives you a refund for things you did not own? or a time-window to help you exploit their system?

The price of what? Archwing slots didn't exist before. That's like saying the latest Dyson vacuum cleaner was free before it was released. Except in this case, it's not a new, better tool at a premium. It's just a restriction on what already was.

 

You now have to pay 5 <local currency of choice> to enter your house because someone put a toll barricade across it. That barricade didn't cost nothing to bypass before. It just didn't exist, and you had no reason to expect someone would install one while you were out shopping.

 

There are two easy-to-apply options for DE at this point:

• Remove Arch-slots entirely and refund all purchases of them since Specters. This is the fairest option but removes that minute potential trickle of income. (Seriously, I doubt these slots will even blip the radar anyway.)
• Raise the minimum slot count for Arch-weapons to 15, which is the number of distinct weapons available before slots existed. This way, sure, Console players still have their bonus wing/weapon slots from the warning.. but at least nobody on the PC has been charged for something they had no reason to expect they needed to go out and farm as an absolute priority on pain of premium currency cost.

[Chipputer]

On 9/16/2016 at 6:43 PM, EDYinnit said:

Oh yeah. Consoles got that luxury.

Again, it was a bad move on DE's part to do what they did, but giving us time to exploit this loophole is not the answer and it's a shame that anyone is even entertaining the idea. There's nothing you can do about it now. Don't cry over spilled milk.

As far as I'm concerned, console players who hoarded AWs and AWeapons are exploiters and should be treated as such.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, Chipputer said:

Again, it was a bad move on DE's part to do what they did, but giving us time to exploit this loophole is not the answer and it's a shame that anyone is even entertaining the idea. There's nothing you can do about it now. Don't cry over spilled milk.

As far as I'm concerned, console players who hoarded AWs and AWeapons are exploiters and should be treated as such.

I love how people are stuck over this conceptual solution from two months ago when it was more appropriate (and would've just given equal opportunity to what console hoarders got in actuality), utterly ignorant of the refinements to the suggested method of handling it that have been made in the meantime.

[TheScytale]

6 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

That's like saying the latest Dyson vacuum cleaner was free before it was released. Except in this case, it's not a new, better tool at a premium. It's just a restriction on what already was.

You now have to pay 5 <local currency of choice> to enter your house because someone put a toll barricade across it. That barricade didn't cost nothing to bypass before. It just didn't exist, and you had no reason to expect someone would install one while you were out shopping.

More like

On 18/09/2016 at 4:35 AM, TheScytale said:

 a local parking garage let you put your bike there for free, then charged you after you brought a car because the space (the space that makes them make money) you're consuming isn't negligible anymore.

 

11 minutes ago, EDYinnit said:

There are two easy-to-apply options for DE at this point:

• Remove Arch-slots entirely and refund all purchases of them since Specters. This is the fairest option but removes that minute potential trickle of income. (Seriously, I doubt these slots will even blip the radar anyway.)
• Raise the minimum slot count for Arch-weapons to 15, which is the number of distinct weapons available before slots existed. This way, sure, Console players still have their bonus wing/weapon slots from the warning.. but at least nobody on the PC has been charged for something they had no reason to expect they needed to go out and farm as an absolute priority on pain of premium currency cost.

Easy to apply, but not reasonable.

• No. Just no. No business will take you seriously when you ask for paid service to be free just 'cause it gives them "little income". As if you had DE's data to make this claim.
• Again, the service they're providing us, which is slots, i.e memory on their servers, isn't that negligible anymore. Sure, when there were like 10 arch-weapons, they could close their eyes and let it slip. But as AW gear grew, along with the playerbase, they couldn't afford to close their eyes anymore.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, TheScytale said:

More like

On 18/09/2016 at 4:35 AM, TheScytale said:

 a local parking garage let you put your bike there for free, then charged you after you brought a car because the space (the space that makes them make money) you're consuming isn't negligible anymore.

Easy to apply, but not reasonable.

• No. Just no. No business will take you seriously when you ask for paid service to be free just 'cause it gives them "little income". As if you had DE's data to make this claim.
• Again, the service they're providing us, which is slots, i.e memory on their servers, isn't that negligible anymore. Sure, when there were like 10 arch-weapons, they could close their eyes and let it slip. But as AW gear grew, along with the playerbase, they couldn't afford to close their eyes anymore.

...

1 hour ago, TheScytale said:

 As if you had DE's data to make this claim.

 

[TheScytale]

I don't know how many AW slots an account starts with, so let's say 5. That means with your solution, it's 10 more free AW slots. That means a potential loss of 60 plat per new account, or even more, since 15 slots is more than enough for the average player to only keep the "necessary" items (meaning they won't be buying slots for new content, just sell the trash items and get the new). As well as a loss of 12-48 plat per player who, like you and I, owned some weapons before the change.

With a playerbase of 1000, 10 AW items is a negligible amount compared to 250 other things. But in a playerbase of 20000, 15 items are still negligible compared to 350, but the total amount of (potentially) freely given slots is not. The numbers here are randomly chosen, but the reasoning is here: Even though the ratio of "AW gear/All the gear" hasn't changed that much, the potential loss increased with every new account. Every new account was freely using data that could've been profitable to the company.

I say "potential" loss because we all know that not everyone is going to get all those 15 weapons. Yet, DE aren't going to wave off that possible loss by a "players won't play AW and won't use those slots anyway because AW sucks". That's just not how you think about the future of your game.

And again, they have the data. They have the numbers. They have their strategies. If they changed it, and if that change wasn't brought up at all, it means it's been discussed internally and the matter is totally done with. Resolved. Even forgotten by now. They're not going to ignore their specialist's decisions because some angry guy on the forums was complaining.

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, TheScytale said:

I say "potential" loss because we all know that not everyone is going to get all those 15 weapons. Yet, DE aren't going to wave off that possible loss by a "players won't play AW and won't use those slots anyway because AW sucks". That's just not how you think about the future of your game.

But people are refusing to buy those slots and/or play Archwing in general. Several citations right in this thread of players specifically turned away by the change (some in general and some in specific because of the manner in which it was and is being handled), not to mention the rest of the 100+ people who have seen my OP and agreed enough to merit upvoting it.

 

And then there's players like myself who hold the developers to principles, principles which have been violated by making this change under the table with nothing to say but 'surprise'. You know what would be a start? An apology for putting us all in this mess to start with. Turning away customers like me, who would buy the N additional slots for new gear released from then on but won't support such unfair unspoken changes (As I've said, I bought a slot for the Amesha because the 'Wing slot count actually fits the previous number of available 'Wings) is also no way to think about the future of your game.

 

They could earn more plat from me by compensating this problem and releasing 2 new Arch-weapons than they gain by leaving us with this grievance.

3 hours ago, TheScytale said:

And again, they have the data. They have the numbers. They have their strategies. If they changed it, and if that change wasn't brought up at all, it means it's been discussed internally and the matter is totally done with. Resolved. Even forgotten by now. They're not going to ignore their specialist's decisions because some angry guy on the forums was complaining.

^{[citation needed]}

Until they make an announcement in direct regards to this issue, then it's not resolved at all, is it? Claims otherwise are purely conjecture.

Edited September 21, 2016 by EDYinnit

[TheLexiConArtist]

boop doop de doop, this is still unaddressed.

 

Never posted as such, but I got a response back from Support - basically, "we can't put this through, you need to use the forum for feedback, that's where you can be heard".

 

Can I? Can we? Months of trying suggests otherwise, but Nekros as my witness, this thread will resurge time and again until we get something.