Uselessness of relic refinement and DE's RNGesus laughing in my face

[--MWT--PrimeowBatoto--]

just fix this new void system i admit yes u can choose ur  reward but u can get only 1 i prefer the void system before and this system is really boring and anti fun...now there no end game tier mission anymore now that void T4 been removed and void is useless now sad.....

 

[CrudShuzKong]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Not really. What I posted is exactly correct. It might not be the most clear explanation, but at least it's not wrong...   :)

yes it is, i actually managed to skip it when reading though...

[Redeye]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

Not really. What I posted is exactly correct. It might not be the most clear explanation, but at least it's not wrong...   :)

I find it to be pretty clear. And accurate. You just did what I was too le tired to do.

(and honestily if I tried, it would've been far less understandable)

Edited July 19, 2016 by Schtredeye

[Doom_Bunny]

These chances look pretty good.....for those in group of four with the exact same relic. For those outside of this specification, we're mostly doomed. I would like my 5% every 20mins (no matter your grouping, without spending other relics) back please :P

[Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Schtredeye said:

I find it to be pretty clear. And accurate. You just did what I was too le tired to do.

(and honestily if I tried, it would've been far less understandable)

tbh, the step from "here's the chance of success" to "we need to figure out the chance of failure" is not intuitive to everyone. If you aren't a math person it isn't at all clear that this is the correct strategy. (I used to tutor an ex-gf in probability and basic set theory, and I had to come to terms with the fact that not everyone likes math :) )

 

As far as reducing the grind goes, I've found it isn't so bad if you have a squad that knows what they're doing. 34% is very, very good, the issue is grinding the traces. With our setup, we usually get 40 to 45 traces per fissure, and I once got 104 in one run. We generally don't run radiant relics all at once, that way we don't risk getting the rare part twice and wasting a relic, and we can make ducats and forma along the way. With one or two people putting up radiant relics per run (and the others using different relics that don't drop anything they need) we can run radiant relics all night with no break. However, it get's a little repetitive, running the same squad makeup and strategy over and over again...

[Airwolfen]

17 minutes ago, Postal_pat said:

These chances look pretty good.....for those in group of four with the exact same relic. For those outside of this specification, we're mostly doomed. I would like my 5% every 20mins (no matter your grouping, without spending other relics) back please :P

I have been having fun just going into public matches with the relic I need though. You do not owe them a thing and if your reward is not what you need then maybe someone else has something interesting. Have been picking stuff up for a friend of mine or simply Ducats when my rewards were useless. 100% this version over the old one imo.

Though I would like to see some relevancy back in the void instead of justthe void traces that pop up from time to time.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Airwolfen

[matto]

I don't refine relics. I just pop into a mission with a S#&$ty one and hope people brought good stuff and have a better luck than mine. Problem is, it seems that a lot of us are doing so.

[Azrael]

Just now, matto said:

I don't refine relics. I just pop into a mission with a S#&$ty one and hope people brought good stuff and have a better luck than mine. Problem is, it seems that a lot of us are doing so.

That's called leeching. It was supposed to be over after SotR, but obviously it didn't work out that way...

[Airwolfen]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

That's called leeching. It was supposed to be over after SotR, but obviously it didn't work out that way...

o well at least people need to use a relic to get other people their loot instead of pure leeching. what is one persons crap loot can be another persons treasure.

[matto]

5 minutes ago, Lord_Azrael said:

That's called leeching. It was supposed to be over after SotR, but obviously it didn't work out that way...

So? That's what this system allows you to do. As said, at least you use a relic. It's not leeching, you're actually playing the game and using something to participate.

[SimplicityOfReason]

8 minutes ago, matto said:

I don't refine relics. I just pop into a mission with a S#&$ty one and hope people brought good stuff and have a better luck than mine. Problem is, it seems that a lot of us are doing so.

 

This.
The relic system is so stupid that I just don't want to bother maxing out any of the relics. 
I thought this 4 gig update would implement something new and exciting into the game, all they did was rehash the same things (the galaxy/void). The things that worked just fine were made into whatever this relic system is.
Sure, it's easier to get stuff now, but every single mission looks/feels the same tbh. Not to mention that sabotage is missing, a mission type I really enjoy and not just because of more drops in em.
A lot of people don't like the new stuff that was added, and are just like me, forcing themselves to log in once a day and running the sorties with a nerfed creds reward as well.

Thanks DE.

[Kuestenjung]

1 hour ago, Praxxor said:

5.5% chance in 20 minutes vs 2% chance in 2 minutes

vs 10% in 2 minutes. We are talking about refined relic not unrefined.

[Azrael]

Just now, matto said:

So? That's what this system allows you to do. As said, at least you use a relic. It's not leeching, you're actually playing the game and using something to participate.

True enough. But if I'm looking for a rare part I don't get a lot of benefit from playing public when everyone else is hoping someone else will bring a good relic. Granted, they're helping by bringing a relic that may give ducats or forma, but my own key is guaranteed to give me a forma or ducats anyway, so I'm not sure what benefit there is to playing public at this point.

[matto]

Just now, Lord_Azrael said:

True enough. But if I'm looking for a rare part I don't get a lot of benefit from playing public when everyone else is hoping someone else will bring a good relic. Granted, they're helping by bringing a relic that may give ducats or forma, but my own key is guaranteed to give me a forma or ducats anyway, so I'm not sure what benefit there is to playing public at this point.

Indeed. If you want a better chance you can just play with clan mates who refined the same relic as well. That's how it works and that's why it is better in terms of luck.

Going out with randoms is a big lottery, worse than playing for a survival rotC reward. Because you'll consume more relics in less time. Thus needing you to face the RNGod once more for getting the right relics.

[Askell91]

HAHAHAHAHA Thats cute dude...... The new void system is SOO good :'(

[Kai_Shiba]

28 minutes ago, matto said:

So? That's what this system allows you to do. As said, at least you use a relic. It's not leeching, you're actually playing the game and using something to participate.

If someone goes into recruit and says: H AXI then that's fine to bring whatever AXI you want.

If someone goes into recruit and says: H AXI V1, then that's not fine to bring whatever you want

[matto]

2 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

If someone goes into recruit and says: H AXI then that's fine to bring whatever AXI you want.

If someone goes into recruit and says: H AXI V1, then that's not fine to bring whatever you want

Those are basic rules, I was talking about random squads.

[motorfirebox]

RNG is still RNG, guys.

[TrinityPrime]

There's also a big question of abuse with the new relic system. As it is now, should you happen to lose connection or *cough* cat-on-keyboard--happened-to-press-alt-and-f4 at the rewards selection screen, you don't lose your radiant relic and if it just so happens to happen every radiant run you do except for the one that happens to drop the rare reward you want... well that's just good luck right? Right?

100% relic conversion to desired drop. Effort spent still the same though.

Expecting changes...

Edited July 19, 2016 by KnotOfMetal

[Khunvyel]

35 minutes ago, Kuestenjung said:

vs 10% in 2 minutes. We are talking about refined relic not unrefined.

Except this is not a true comparison. Comparing 5,5% old key with 2% new relic is identical due to both things being acquired through the same amount of effort, aka "pre-mission." Refining something to get to the 10% chance means using other relics beforehand, thus increasing the time invested, narrowing the gap of 20 minutes vs. 2. And I do think that 2 minutes is an exaggeration, because you cannot force the Fissure mission itself to be something quick like Capture. Thus you always have to factor the completion time of the Fissure mission itself into it, which adds up a lot more time going for the actual refined 10% relic.

Let's not even mention the fact that leeching in the past wasn't a problem, and now it is a definite issue, running with pugs. Hell, even when a clanmate accidentally hit the wrong relic, it can still be detrimental to the cause.

[Yoruno]

I look at it this way to convince myself that its not a grind,
Intact has the "normal" 2% drop chances of rare stuff. You farm with intacts and get traces just for farming with intacts. Then once you hit the limit you can supercharge a relic for one run with 10% drop chance. It's a bonus not a requirement. I'm really not lying to myself. this is how its supposed to work. really.

And regarding probability, i always thought 4 ppl roll for 4 reward, each person roll once from their own table (affected by era + name, n1 v2 w/e) with their own modified odd (affected by intact/exceptional/flawless/radiant). For example,
 

Spoiler

 

1 radiant LithA1 in solo: 50% common 40% uncommon 10% rare
= 50/100 common 40/100 uncommon 10/100 rare outta 100/100
 and only this rolled drop shows on screen.

1 radiant LithA1 + 1 intact LithA1 in 2man squad
=50/100 common 40 /100 uncommon 10/100 rare out of 100/100 for first rolled drop outta 2
=76/100 common 22 /100 uncommon 2/100 rare out of 100/100 for 2nd drop outta 2
So whatever drop chance they get is based on their own refinement, and squadmates can "leech" for the radiant's loot if he scored big but that can go either way if that 2% guy scored big instead.

OR, The other way it could be working is that but that whole squad rolls 4 times from the combined table with each relic's own modified odd. it doesn't look that different from about but itd be like this
1 radiant LithA1 + 1 intact LithA1 in 2man squad
= above ^ + 76/100 common 22/100 uncommon 2/100 rare outta 100
= 50+76/200 common, 40+22/200 uncommon, 10+2/200 rare outta 200
=126/200, 66/200, 12/200
back to 100% probability
= 63/100 common, 33/100 uncommon, 6/100 rare
= 63% common, 33% uncommon, 6% rare
 both players roll so 6% + 6% chance of getting rare
But i doubt this is how it works cos this effectively oversaturates drop chances, giving squad more chance of rolling that forma bp from intact lith A1..twice. I really hope this isnt how it works.

 

so 4radiant Lith A1 would still result in 50% common 40% uncommon 10% rare drop rate per person, but each person gets to roll once so squad gets 4 chances at rolling with 10% which.... could come up as 40% but this gets iffy here cos that'd be not out of 100 chance but 400 combined chance.

Bottomline is, even if current system sounds bad you're really not losing out on your own drop chance at all compared to radiant solo, in fact you're actually getting more shots at that one rare loot per run from other "leechers" in unorganized squads even if that shot has 2% chance, up to 3 more times.
But ofcourse that is simply not going to reach the level of an organized squad with 4 radiant of same name, and preferably has ivara hydroid and nekros just to milk out those traces.

[Bacms]

Right this picked my interested bur rather than manually calculating probabilities I did a quick RNG to check the probabilities. Assuming 1,000,000 runs and a uniform random number generator you get the following chances of getting at least 1 rare item:

No radiant: ~7.71%

1 Radiant: ~15.29% (7.58% increase)

2 Radiant: ~22.15% (6.86% increase)

3 Radiant: ~28.60% (6.45% increase)

4 Radiant: ~34.33% (5.73% increase)

 

So if you have plenty of relics and are just interested in the most economical void trace wise bring 1 radiant. If you want to maximise of getting the item you want obviously bring 4.

It should be said that running 1 radiant 4 times is actually better because that is where you get the maximum probability increase but you will obviously spending more 4x more keys and 4x more time 

[Dan1lo]

If you have a 100-face dye and you throw it for a 100, you have 1% chance of doing it. If it lands on 100 in your first try, was it random? That's the thing about the new system. It gives you a better chance at finding items, but a chance is still a chance. Stuff can happen. As long as the system is not rigged and it is, in fact, increasing the odds for better relics, it's still random, but better distributed.

[DEATHLOK]

What I do not understand is that you are arguing these odds and expectations, yet no one has mentioned that the system appears bugged.

As of last night, players were all seeing four completely different available awards; they were not seeing the same thing at the end of the match. Player One might see A, B, C, and D. Player two might see E, F, G, and A. And so on for the other two. Obviously, if the choices were all displaying incorrectly, than each player actually chose was also also being reported incorrectly to the other players.

I'm still unaware if we even got to choose gear from the Relics we brought. It's not as if I'm in the habit of writing their contents down before I play.

You guys might want to take screen shots of the awards page and share the info with the other players.

[Bizzaro21]

IMO radiant refine should swap the odds, the rare becomes common and common becomes rare, it`d be better to reduce the chance of crap parts than increasing that of good ones