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The Void Issue


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STEPS TO GET PRIME GEAR

 

STEP 1

OLD SYSTEM

 

You have to go to mission that reward keys. It requires farming to get the keys you want, and more farming to get enough to have a decent chance to get the item you want from the void.

 

If you go with a team, each member will get a copy of the key, meaning for a team of four members we get 4 keys total per awarded key. This is particularly a good idea if you are playing with friends or clan peers that will stay around to play the actual void mission together.

NEW SYSTEM

 

You have to go to missions that reward relics. It requires more farming to get the relics you want (since there are more possible relics than keys) [WORSE], and more farming to get enough to have a decent chance to get the item you want from the fissure...*

 

If you go with a team, each member will get a copy of the relic, but they all need to put the relic to run the fissure mission... meaning that it only account for 1 run [WORSE].

 

*: See also STEP 3

STEP 2

OLD SYSTEM

 

You go to the void using the key, what key you fix both the mission type and the rewards table. This keeps it clear on what rewards you may get from what mission.

 

Also, a single key may give multiple rewards (defense, survival, interception, even sabotage) which is great if we are looking for ducats.

 

If we are looking for a particular item we would have to play the same mission again and again until we get it. Of course we can always change targets and go for something else for a while...

NEW SYSTEM

 

We no longer have incentive to go to the void [WORSE].

 

We can enter the fissure on public pairing, meaning that we can easily join another squad, or have more players hop in... [BETTER] Yet, if you want to ensure that all players are using the same relic you have to use the chat to find people [SAME].

 

A fissure has only one reward, period. This makes it harder to farm ducats [WORSE].

 

If we are looking for a particular item we would have to play the same mission again and again until we get it [SAME]. Yet, if we want to change targets to something else*... that doesn't matter, we have the same selection of fissures anyway** [WORSE]

 

*: In particular the lower tiers seems to always have 1 option.

 

**: And they change too slowly

STEP 3

OLD SYSTEM

 

Enjoy

NEW SYSTEM

 

You get traces as drops from the fissure, and you can* use them to "improve" the rewards table as to make rare items more common. Yet, it is still Random, you may spend 100 on a relic and get the most common rewards... in fact, the most common rewards is still highly probable after using the 100 traces. And after you did that.. well back to the same old farming.

 

It is unclear to me whatever or not the traces balance all the things marked worse in the previous points (without proper chances I can't even try to make a model to see if things are easier to get) but I assure you that it doesn't feel like it [BAD]. And you - DE - should be trying to make a game that people enjoy,

 

*: you are encouraged to use them, because if you don't then you would reach 100 and any additional traces would be wasted [BAD].

 

LIST OF THINGS MADE BAD OR WORSE

 

1) There are more relics than there were keys before [Acknowledged in Devstream 77]

2) There is less incentive to go to Void missions -> less supply of argon crystals [Devstream 77 mentioned new void gameplay]

3) Player require a relic get a reward

4) A fissure only give one reward [Acknowledged in Devstream 77]

5) We have to choose from a narrow selection of fissure locations [Some progress done on hotfixes]

6) Solo players - or players with poor connections - are "penalized" as they have less to choose from

7) Void traces feel ineffective; it is not fun to use them in a relic to just have it wasted on a forma

8) There is a hard limit of 100 traces [Acknowledged in Devstream 77] Edit: Since Hotfix 13 the cap of 100 traces has been lifted

 

SUGGESTIONS:

 

To address numeral 1 - There are more relics than there were keys before

 

A) Limit mission relic rewards to a particular tier, so there are less possible relics in the reward tables and so each one has a greater chance. This gives the players the power to choose of what tier they want to farm relics. You may think you have already done this. No, you didn't, each mission give relics of two possible tiers. [As per Devstream 77 where each relic drops will be published]

 

B) Allow relics to drop in bulk, so that we may get 1, 3 or 5 of the same relic. [Devstream 77 suggested relics as drops]

 

To address numeral 2 - There is less incentive to go to Void missions -> less supply of argon crystals

 

C) Let argon crystal decay into void traces - so we have another incentive to farm them

 

D) Allow all corrupted eximus to drop traces - so we have another reason to go to the void

 

E) Drop all ducats and argon crystal prices

 

To address numeral 3 - Players require a relic to get a reward

 

F) Allow relics to be traded in bulk, as to ease sharing them with other player, and also to increase their market flow.

 

G) Allow players to be able to still join and get rewards regardless of the lack of relic*

 

*: I get that that is not thematic.

Edit: Since the cap of 100 traces has been lifted in Hotfix 13, there is some incentive to play fissure missions without relics

 

To address numeral 4 - A fissure only give one reward

 

H) Allow multiple rifts / fissures to pop up in long lasting missions - that is: if the fissure is in defense, give a fissure each 4 rounds, if it is survival then each 5 minutes, etc... [Acknowledged in Devstream 77 - no word in attemps to change it]

 

Edit: Hotfix 13 included missions with multiple fissures, this is progress!

 

To address numeral 5 - We have to choose from a narrow selection of fissure locations

 

I.a) Tweak the system to have always at least two fissure per tier active, and increase the maximum fissures per tier to 5 or 6

 

I.b) Remove the concept of the fissure being in a place. Instead equip the relics the same way as you equip dragon keys and while you have it you have a chance that any particular mission you enter will be a fissure mission

 

I.c) Decrease the time the fissures stay on the same sector, drop the time down to 30 min, so that we are not doing the same fissure mission again and again

Edit: Hotfix 12 has made the time 1 - 2 hours, this is progress!

 

To address numeral 6 - Solo players - or players with poor connections - are "penalized" as they have less to choose from

 

J) Add 1 extra possible reward to all fissures, this one would be selected from the collective of the drop tables of the relics of all players. So a solo player has 2 options, and a team of 4 has 5 options.

 

K) Allow a single player to equip multiple relics, and at the end give them an option per equipped relic (all equipped relics are used)

 

Edit: Thanks to Hotfix 13 it is easier for a solo player to stock traces without need to use relics and without need to use a loot oriented warframe

 

To address numeral 7 - Void traces feel ineffective; it is not fun to use them in a relic to just have it wasted on a forma

 

L) Make the option of 100 void traces allow the player to remove one possible reward from the relic - so we can make them at least don't drop forma

 

M) Allow the option to don't open the relic if you don't like any of the options, so you can keep grinding with a single - improved - relic until you get what you want

 

See Also D

 

To address numeral 8 - There is a hard limit of 100 traces

 

N) Allow at least 110 traces to all players, [optionally allow 2 extra traces per mastery rank] [In Devstream 77 it was said that it will be 50 extra per mastery rank]

 

Edit: Since Hotfix 13 the cap of 100 traces has been lifted

 

---

 

OTHER IDEAS

 

Making relics personal gear

 

You - DE - may consider to rework the Void so that you equip a relic as a tool (change I.b above) and play missions - any mission - with that relic, and while you are doing so the relic is absorbing void energy, now the amount would be increased if you play void missions. After a certain cap is reached, the relic will crack, and upon returning to the ship a random plays to see what you got from the possible options for that particular relic. And also you could equip multiple relics at the same time (Change K above).

 

Fissures? sure, a great opportunity to farm traces. Also you may make it give a boost to the equipped relic.

 

It is not perfect, it would require at least some of the changes A to E from the list above to counterbalance the grind. F and G would be pointless for this idea.

 

The downfall of this idea is that the team benefits are lost.

 

A compromise of the new and old system

 

Don't allow fissures in the void. Instead make the void work as a fissure, so that players may choose to play void missions to open the relic, upon completing the void mission you get the selection. This way you can open any relic on any void mission. Traces would have to become a drop (change D above). Changes A and B would also be needed to balance the grind. C is not necessary since we would be playing in the void anyway. F and G would be good to have.

 

The downfall of this idea is that we would be losing the missions that give multiple prime rewards anyway. Mitagate by dropping prices (the change E above).

 

USER EXPERIENCE SUGGESTION

 

- Allow me to see how many of a reward I have both when selecting a reward and when selecting a relic

- Increase the time for selecting rewards, but add a confirmation button to press so that when all players have confirmed there is no need to wait the time

- Allow to see what relic I have equiped before starting the mission* - when I choose to repeat a mission, Idk if I still have a relic equiped

- Make Ordis notify the player when we reach the 100 void traces

*: That if you intend to keep relics secret, I'm sure there is value in letting people know what relic you have, in particular for players that are teamed up to farm the same thing.

CALL TO ACTION

I would like for people to comment which of the suggestions they like - quote which of the letter suggestions from A to N you like, or add what would you change - as to help DE have a better idea of what people want.

Edited by theraot
"Actually Readable" version - added notes from Hotfix 13
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12 minutes ago, (XB1)NecroEric420 said:

I agree. at least one person finds this new system to be trash.

Right... I do believe that if we have any chance of getting DE to change the system, it will be by arguments and justified suggestions. That's why did this post and that other one where I went over the Bourbon List: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/673733-specters-of-the-rail-hotfix-9/?do=findComment&comment=7523671 [I'll review that and post it again, eventually]

 

I remember that at some point @[DE]Rebecca mentioned that at some point when they do frequency analysis of the text in the forums they did find "draco" to be among the most common topics. If they do frecuency analisys to parse feedback, we need to keep saying the same things over and over. I'm hoping to bring attention to the new prime gear system (aka Void 2.0) - although I do notice that they didn't really deal with Draco, they just moved the problem to anther sector.

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The new system is considerably faster even when you consider relic farming and key sharing. That's not to say I like Fissures in any way though.

Consider that their are 7 Relics per Tier compared to 6 for T1-3 and 7 for Tier4.

When you compared 4 Radiant Relic rolls you have a 34.4% probability of getting the Rare you want. Key sharing requires 8 runs at 5% chance to match.

You have a 1/7 chance of getting the relic you need and a 1/6 chance of getting the key. However you require 2 keys per person. You do not require any specific relics other than the one you want. You may use "junk" Relics to gain traces and upgrade the one you want.

The avg Void Roll C or single mission reward takes ~11 minutes. The Avg Fissure mission takes ~8 minutes.

 In a well made group you can farm over 100 Traces in a single run with a booster (Nekros, Atlas/Hydroid, Ivara) without a booster 2 runs. I've gotten 64 just by myself playing Nekros and a booster. The overall process of the relic system is about x3 faster than key sharing which is the optimal way to farm before.

I agree with every other point you make. Esp that it punishes solo players. I myself have just stopped doing Fissure when my clan isn't on because many people don't understand how to farm them efficiently still. Which of course brings me to... The Loot Meta.  -It's lame.  Not that there's a reason to use abilities at these levels anyways.

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20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Consider that their are 7 Relics per Tier compared to 6 for T1-3 and 7 for Tier4.

This means greater chances in the run, but also less chances in farming - the rest of your argument seem to go around ease of gettin a radiant relic...

20 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 In a well made group you can farm over 100 Traces in a single run with a booster (Nekros, Atlas/Hydroid, Ivara) without a booster 2 runs. I've gotten 64 just by myself playing Nekros and a booster. The overall process of the relic system is about x3 faster than key sharing which is the optimal way to farm before.

I'm only getting 10 - 20, we have tried Ivara, Nekros and Hydroid, we have put the reactant in three strategies: steadily, all at start and sit on 90% until the last seconds, and rushing at the last minute. It seems to make no difference... what are you doing?

If you can really get 50 void traces in one run, solo... then yeah, I agree solo players would have no problem, they would just have to use some "junk relics" (as you say) to refine the ones they want. But 50 void traces in one run is not at all what I have seen so far.

Edit: I wish to share my relics with clan members to help them. Farm keys and then play a few them is something I used to do, I rather do this than to give them prime gear... as by this means we were both getting the gear and they still had to play to get the stuff. So, I guess I'm biased towards sharing. The strong point of relics seems to be on public pairing, I have done most of my runs that way.

Edited by theraot
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Honestly, if you really want to get your point across somewhere it matters, go to steam and post a negative review.  Tell new players what they are actually signing up for, and how the golden age of Warframe has ended.

If they fix it or come out with something really great in the future, you can always flip your review back around.

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27 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

The new system is considerably faster even when you consider relic farming and key sharing. That's not to say I like Fissures in any way though.

 

after using all of my 45 lith m1 keys for a mag prime bp i have to disagree there.

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On 7/19/2016 at 8:29 PM, theraot said:

LIST OF THINGS MADE BAD OR WORSE

 

1) There are more relics than there were keys before

2) There is less incentive to go to Void missions -> less supply of argon crystals

3) All player require a relic access the fissure

4) A fissure only give one reward

5) We have to choose from a narrow selection of fissure locations

6) Solo players - or players with poor connections - are "penalized" as they have less to choose from

7) Void traces feel ineffective; it is not fun to use them in a relic to just have it wasted on a forma

8) There is a hard limit of 100 traces

1) It's becoming apparent that nothing about this new system reduces table dilution in any meaningful way; DE have only kicked the can. Early on, I felt much better about this system because my relic inventory was bugged and missing several types of relics.

Now that I have a clear idea of just how many relic types we're being asked to hunt... ugh. This feels bad.

2) Less obvious incentive to spend time in the Void is a problem; Steve seems to favor the idea of having void traces available in some way through standard Void nodes. That's something, but wouldn't the Void be a logical place to find relics of greater value / with higher frequency? If the Void was made a place where relics were significantly easier to obtain, that would give us some reason to spend more time there.

3) I'm not sure about the feasibility of "F," but it would be nice to have if it could be managed somehow.

4) I don't see any real possibility of something like this right now. DE would have to make significant changes to how the relic system works, not to mention it would invalidate a lot of the content they made for SotR. VO would have to be thrown out and replaced. Decisions would have to be made. Would players be able to obtain multiple rewards from a single relic again?

5) It sounds like DE are making this a priority; overall I'm mostly content with what they're doing on this point.

6) This is definitely a problem, but I'm not convinced that these folks are any worse off now than they were under the old system. I think this point might actually need its own topic, because a thorough consideration of the issue gets complicated in a hurry.

7) Void traces do feel ineffective. I really don't know what to make of it, because we have (allegedly) good data indicating that there is real improvement when relics are refined. Perhaps we need other ways to use them. Suggestion in spoiler:

Spoiler

What if each level of refinement allowed us to remove one potential drop from the equation? Drop weights would need to be adjusted so that the current probabilistic relationships between common/uncommon/rare parts remained the same, but having the ability to outright remove certain items from the table might serve to make all that trace usage feel more worthwhile.

8) There has been talk of linking the trace limit to Mastery Rank; perhaps 100 with an extra 10 for every rank above 0 would be a good place to start.

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37 minutes ago, theraot said:

This means greater chances in the run, but also less chances in farming - the rest of your argument seem to go around ease of gettin a radiant relic...

I'm only getting 10 - 20, we have tried Ivara, Nekros and Hydroid, we have put the reactant in three strategies: steadily, all at start and sit on 90% until the last seconds, and rushing at the last minute. It seems to make no difference... what are you doing?

If you can really get 50 void traces in one run, solo... then yeah, I agree solo players would have no problem, they would just have to use some "junk relics" (as you say) to refine the ones they want. But 50 void traces in one run is not at all what I have seen so far.

Edit: I wish to share my relics with clan members to help them. Farm keys and then play a few them is something I used to do, I rather do this than to give them prime gear... as by this means we were both getting the gear and they still had to play to get the stuff. So, I guess I'm biased towards sharing. The strong point of relics seems to be on public pairing, I have done most of my runs that way.

It's equal chances for the run(s). 4 Rolls at 10% is 34.4% probability. While 8 Rolls of 5% is 33.7%.

Since you only need one of the required relics at 1/7 chance and 2 of the required key at 1/6 chance per group member it's also less time to farm. Roughly 5 rolls for a 50/50 probability of the Relic you want and 10 Rolls for a 50/50 at both keys. I haven't done numbers on Ducat farming yet since they're due to revamp the common 50 drops. Pretty sure it will be lower at that point though.

-

Are you using heavy Slash weapons? Staying longer on the Fissure doesn't matter though. The Eximus that drop the Traces spawn at 30/50/80% marks and they're the one enemies in the event that will drop them. I've seen other Eximus spawn outside those marks but they drop nothing. At those point you pause, have Atlas/Ivara do their thing, then kill the Eximus, if they don't splat into peices when you kill them; make sure to chop the body into pieces quickly then spam Desecrate. Don't spam it outside these moments because if you Desecrate a non-chopped Eximus you deny yourself extra traces. I use Azima on my Nekros with a crit build and 60/60x2 + Maim, it's about 50% total Slash damage and gibs pretty good for a ranged weapon, melee is great also of course. After the 80% Eximus is dead just close the Fissure. Also avoid Simulor and Vortex these things will suck  up the gibs you make and ruin Desecrate.

Without a booster I avg 20-28 using Nekros. You can miss an eximus at times due to terrain or get a Moa which don't gib but in a group you get even more so technically solo players still get punished compared to a group that knows how to maximize their farm. I also agree the old system was much friendlier to escorting new players through the Void and I imagine it felt a lot more like an event or right of passage. I don't like to buy anything but boosters for friends as I feel it's just denying them the experience. Outside of friends/clan I'm a solo player so I very much dislike the public paring preference of the new system.

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1 minute ago, notlamprey said:

2) Less obvious incentive to spend time in the Void is a problem; Steve seems to favor the idea of having void traces available in some way through standard Void nodes. That's something, but wouldn't the Void be a logical place to find relics of greater value / with higher frequency? If the Void was made a place where relics were significantly easier to obtain, that would give us some reason to spend more time there.

The logical place to find relics is the derrelict, and it already has this role. That is a reason to go to the derrelict now that it doesn't have prime gear... but also a reason to not go to the void.

8 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

3) I'm not sure about the feasibility of "F," but it would be nice to have if it could be managed somehow.

About having relics being traded in bulk... the trade system doesn't understand this as it is right now, still not impossible - nonetheless if we get G (joining and getting rewards without relic) we can at least skip the hassle of trading in the most common scenario.

10 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

4) I don't see any real possibility of something like this right now. DE would have to make significant changes to how the relic system works, not to mention it would invalidate a lot of the content they made for SotR. VO would have to be thrown out and replaced. Decisions would have to be made. Would players be able to obtain multiple rewards from a single relic again?

Not exactly... I mean, sure multiple rewards per relics is not thematic as it stand... yet, part of the lore is these relics exist in some form of decoherence where you don't know what is inside until you open them.. what if what was inside is more than one thing?

12 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

5) It sounds like DE are making this a priority; overall I'm mostly content with what they're doing on this point.

Yup, there is some progress on this. The time a fissure stays on the same place has been reduced to 1-2 hours, and the ammount of fissures per tier has been set to up to 3. I think it is not enough.

13 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

6) This is definitely a problem, but I'm not convinced that these folks are any worse off now than they were under the old system. I think this point might actually need its own topic, because a thorough consideration of the issue gets complicated in a hurry.

While it is true that a single player would still have 1 run per relic / key, the possibility to choose the reward at the end of the mission is mitigating the runs you need to get something. The solo players get all the grinding but not this mitigation.

16 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

7) Void traces do feel ineffective. I really don't know what to make of it, because we have (allegedly) good data indicating that there is real improvement when relics are refined. Perhaps we need other ways to use them. Suggestion in spoiler:

  Hide contents

What if each level of refinement allowed us to remove one potential drop from the equation? Drop weights would need to be adjusted so that the current probabilistic relationships between common/uncommon/rare parts remained the same, but having the ability to outright remove certain items from the table might serve to make all that trace usage feel more worthwhile.

 

I did think about something similar to the suggestion you post, yet I consider that this would make things too easy. If this is the way it is done, I would suggest then to require multiple runs to open a relic. The problem with this is that pl prices in maket would drop.  I don't think you can convince DE of doing this because  - if I understand correctly - DE wants people to use pl (so that people want to buy more pl with real money).

Also for people like me (who don't put real money on the game but get their pl from other players) having the prices drop too much would decincentive sales, instead I would just focus on getting all the stuff... and after that I would have nothing to do in the game.

In fact we have seem some pl prices did drop because stuff that has moved from rare to uncommon, meaning that things that were for sale before has been devaluated, thankfully the same has happened in reverse (moving things to rare)... even though there is stock of previously common gear, market balance for this quickly.

26 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

8) There has been talk of linking the trace limit to Mastery Rank; perhaps 100 with an extra 10 for every rank above 0 would be a good place to start.

Yes, they mentioned something about this on the last prime time, I'm being conservative with a flat 10 and/or 2 for every rank above 0 - that should be enough to prevent wasted traces if you upgrade a relic to radiant as soon as you go over 100 traces.

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1 hour ago, maxedpotato said:

after using all of my 45 lith m1 keys for a mag prime bp i have to disagree there.

 

Did you upgrade them? Cuz 45 rolls at 2% is only a 60% probability while half that (22 rolls) at 10% is 90%.

It's just math, sometimes the numbers don't work out, I'm not trying to lie or make the system sound good. I very much dislike Fissures.

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@Xzorn

I'm unsure about the stats you say, although you made me realise that getting "junk" relics is viable... sort of. So I would stack radinat relics to share with people who would only need to bring junk relics, they would most likely choose my reward and I would be getting some extra traces for that. If those extra traces weren't just one per player it would be much better.

Quote

Are you using heavy Slash weapons? Staying longer on the Fissure doesn't matter though. The Eximus that drop the Traces spawn at 30/50/80% marks and they're the one enemies in the event that will drop them. I've seen other Eximus spawn outside those marks but they drop nothing. At those point you pause, have Atlas/Ivara do their thing, then kill the Eximus, if they don't splat into peices when you kill them; make sure to chop the body into pieces quickly then spam Desecrate. Don't spam it outside these moments because if you Desecrate a non-chopped Eximus you deny yourself extra traces. I use Azima on my Nekros with a crit build and 60/60x2 + Maim, it's about 50% total Slash damage and gibs pretty good for a ranged weapon, melee is great also of course. After the 80% Eximus is dead just close the Fissure. Also avoid Simulor and Vortex these things will suck  up the gibs you make and ruin Desecrate.

I see what you say, usually I'm not that hardcore on my nekros. Yet, what you are saying is that I need one of a few weapons, one particular warframe, and certain kind of build, no good, thumbs down. Although I would go and try again having this in mind.

I can see Nekros Prime selling well already.

---

Addendum:

If at least Ordis would remind people to use their traces when they reach 100, people would get used to this system much faster.

The old system forced people to play for long periods certain mission types, making the demand for certain warframes in recruitment an interesting side effect, you could see requests for frost, nova, loki, trinity, vauban... nekros had always had its place in farming squads... now, unless it is excavation or something like that, I guess all the demand will be nekros.

Edited by theraot
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It's not exactly on topic, but we may wish to fold this information into the discussion.

" Time is running out to purchase the Mag Prime Vault Pack! On July 26 at 2 p.m. ET, Mag Prime, Boar Prime and Dakra Prime will re-enter the Prime Vault AND their Relics will no longer be obtainable in-game. "
 

The wording is vague, but we have to entertain the possibility that DE intend to release a new set of relic types with every future round of "prime" content. This is worrying.

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12 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

It's not exactly on topic, but we may wish to fold this information into the discussion.

" Time is running out to purchase the Mag Prime Vault Pack! On July 26 at 2 p.m. ET, Mag Prime, Boar Prime and Dakra Prime will re-enter the Prime Vault AND their Relics will no longer be obtainable in-game. "
 

The wording is vague, but we have to entertain the possibility that DE intend to release a new set of relic types with every future round of "prime" content. This is worrying.

That's really insidious and quite insightful.  And to think, we were just bickering about this update a few days ago lol.  Good find reading between the lines.  That is indeed very worrying.

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22 hours ago, notlamprey said:

" Time is running out to purchase the Mag Prime Vault Pack! On July 26 at 2 p.m. ET, Mag Prime, Boar Prime and Dakra Prime will re-enter the Prime Vault AND their Relics will no longer be obtainable in-game. "

One interpretation is that once they vault them, It is confirmed that when they vault prime gear it will no longer be possible to get the relics that had their parts... instead new relics would be avaiable. This goes in line with that idea that perhaps Baro would - from time to time - sell relics that give vaulter gear. Now, if that is true the big question is what happen with the relics we may have left... it sounds like you will keep the relics that has these parts as possible rewards and that you could still get these parts is you play them. Of course the alternative is that these relics get converted via script.

Addendum:
The old advice is to burn the keys before the gear gets vaulted. As to be able to get it, and perhaps get extra to sell or exchange in the future... this may no longer be the best advice o.o - sure get your copy just in case, but... if it is true that you keep the relics, then it is better advice to farm relics.

Edid: It is confirmed, we keep the keys with the current drop tables, and new relics will be introduced... which means that as soon as Nekros Prime rolls out everybody will have to go farm relics big time.

Edited by theraot
It was confirmed that relics will keep drop tables and new relics will be introduced for new prime gear
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9 hours ago, notlamprey said:

6) This is definitely a problem, but I'm not convinced that these folks are any worse off now than they were under the old system. I think this point might actually need its own topic, because a thorough consideration of the issue gets complicated in a hurry.

 

As somebody that farmed nearly everything solo, the new system is considerable worse.

You do not get 2 or 3 rolls for playing 40 waves defence solo or 60 minutes survival solo, your 2 rolls for sabotage or your 12 rolls for solo Interception. Closing the fissure is pure RNG if enught stuff drops with the reduced solo spawnrate, sometimes the time runs out at 70% and sometimes you have 10 items to spare after closing it. The upgrading system takes forever solo, you look at 12 runs(if they fix the drop rate) or 24 runs if it remains as it is where you fail like 50% of the missions by pure rng. You can not change the reward different to when playing in a group at all, what means less drop chance, more keys(relict's) spend, more rng and less rewards. You can not see what kind of relics other people use, so brining a relict for the items that soon be vaulted again feels like a waste, because everybody runs a normal one in a pug and then just picks your reward at the end.

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I did not think of trying to deploy an extractor to the void - alas it can't be done: 

Edit: Why an extractor there? To get those argon crystals that I won't be getting from the runs I won't be doing.

Edited by theraot
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