Titania's Shrink vs.Giant Bullets

[Keyse]

Since Titania is going to be able to shrink down to fairy size, what happens when she is hit with a normal sized bullet, laser, or rocket? I imagine a Titania sized rocket hitting her would be significantly more painful than a normal sized rocket. Or even a normal sized Opticor blast... ouch. Also what if she gets hit with a melee weapon?

My opinion is that an increased damage rating (for lack of better words) would be more fun when she's smaller. It would require some extra thought and more strategy as to when shrinking would be best. As opposed to shrinking without any worry of being hit with enormous rounds of ammunition, or a giant baton that is being swung at her when Loki disarms the enemies.

In short, how will her shrinking affect the amount of damage Titania takes? Or will it matter?


Update 2

Damage, accuracy, density, weight... there's a little but of everything in here.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Keyse
Updated the status of the topic?

[Cyborg-Rox]

Then again, she would be 100x harder for enemies to hit.

[Keyse]

Just now, Cyborg-Rox said:

Then again, she would be 100x harder for enemies to hit.

I wanted to address that too, but didn't want to overwhelm the topic with question after question.
I very much agree, a smaller target is harder to hit. :)

[Hemmo67]

8 minutes ago, Keyse said:

I wanted to address that too, but didn't want to overwhelm the topic with question after question.
I very much agree, a smaller target is harder to hit. :)

which by according to videogame logic cancel each other out :D

[Keyse]

16 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

which by according to videogame logic cancel each other out :D

Can you explain how that works? I'm not sure I understand.

[Antiphoton]

I guess he meant that the damage she doesn't take for her avoidance rating is equalised with the extra damage she takes from projectiles that do hit her, so in the end we just get standard damage. 

 

Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Keyse]

Just now, Antiphoton said:

I guess he meant that the damage she doesn't take for her avoidance rating is equalised with the extra damage she takes from projectiles that do hit her, so in the end we just get standard damage. 

 

Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see.

Okay, that's the way I took it, but didn't want to assume that's what Hemmo meant.

I don't agree with that. It's a nice thought, but it didn't work that way when the Balor Fomorians came. We were small, and they were enormous. Yes we could dodge their laser cannons, but if it hit us we usually died instantly. Granted that is a much larger enemy than what Titania will be facing, but in the same sense it doesn't make much of a difference. Large weapon against smaller opponents = a bad day if (or when) you get hit.

About Accuracy. With the way dodging works now, it "decreases" the enemy's accuracy if you parkour or dodge/roll while moving. You can still get hit and it still hurts tho. And when you are cloaked, the enemy will shoot at the area they last heard you at. You can still get hit even if they're shooting at what seems like nothing. Again, even when they are blinded (when their accuracy should be at it's lowest), they can still hit you if they fire enough rounds in your direction.

I said all of that because even with lower accuracy, if you do manage to get hit, you still take damage. Now imagine that damage was coming from a Cryopod sized ordnance. I'm not saying the extra damage should be as extreme as a Balor Fomorian's laser cannon, but it does make sense that extra damage should be applied.

You are right though, we will have to wait and see.

[Nova]

Titania is the one who can outsmart boolet

[bl4ckhunter]

tecnically she'd be immune to most melee attacks aside from hammers, try to swat a fly with a knife will you XD 

[Burnthesteak87]

Ok dudes, let's make the Corpus Electrical Fly Swatter..*COFF* Prova make x15 damage on Titania.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Burnthesteak87

[Gahrzerkire]

5 hours ago, Keyse said:

Since Titania is going to be able to shrink down to fairy size, what happens when she is hit with a normal sized bullet, laser, or rocket? I imagine a Titania sized rocket hitting her would be significantly more painful than a normal sized rocket. Or even a normal sized Opticor blast... ouch. Also what if she gets hit with a melee weapon?

My opinion is that an increased damage rating (for lack of better words) would be more fun when she's smaller. It would require some extra thought and more strategy as to when shrinking would be best. As opposed to shrinking without any worry of being hit with enormous rounds of ammunition, or a giant baton that is being swung at her when Loki disarms the enemies.

In short, how will her shrinking affect the amount of damage Titania takes? Or will it matter?

Okay it won't matter that she is smaller. Infact being smaller will make her significantly more tanky or at least it should. Because assuming her mass remains the same her density will hit the roof making her significantly more bullet resistant and harder to hit. Also shields will becoming significantly more tanky as they no longer have to cover and protect a huge surface area. They are more focused and again more resistant. She will also become really hard to hit. And if her speed doesn't decrease she will be nigh impossible to hit. Tbh. Think like ant man but WAY more powerful because your not shrinking a dude. You are shrinking a @(*()$ metallic beast.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Gear-hart

[UltimateGrr]

3 hours ago, Burnthesteak87 said:

Ok dudes, let's make the Corpus Electrical Fly Swatter..*COFF* Prova make x15 damage on Titania.

No Titania!  Don't go towards the light!

"But it's so pretty!*

BZZZTT.

[Keyse]

1 hour ago, Gear-hart said:

Okay it won't matter that she is smaller. Infact being smaller will make her significantly more tanky or at least it should. Because assuming her mass remains the same her density will hit the roof making her significantly more bullet resistant and harder to hit. Also shields will becoming significantly more tanky as they no longer have to cover and protect a huge surface area. They are more focused and again more resistant. She will also become really hard to hit. And if her speed doesn't decrease she will be nigh impossible to hit. Tbh. Think like ant man but WAY more powerful because your not shrinking a dude. You are shrinking a @(*()$ metallic beast.

THIS!!! Okay, this makes sense. Thank you so much!
Ant-man and the Wasp have been two of my favorites for nearly half my life. I don't know how I didn't see it like that!
I'm going to sleep so much better tonight with that explanation. I'm not kidding.

[Hemmo67]

10 hours ago, Keyse said:

Can you explain how that works? I'm not sure I understand.

right

big bullets vs very tiny target are quite easy to avoid (take a look at antman the movie) dude's hopping on other guy's shoulders avoiding gunfire

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

@Hemmo67. What about this? ;P ...

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3

[Keyse]

Answering some of the questions before we got into all of this. Titania doesn't have to outsmart a bullet. Though it would help.
 And you most definitely can swat a fly with a knife. You can swat a fly with "anything" provided you understand how the fly reacts to the airflow around it. A quick google search even proves that if you're patient enough and are accurate you can in fact chop a fly in half. Yes I did say accurate, but remember too, if you chop at it enough you're bound to hit it anyway,
I ALMOST mentioned the Prova! lol I typed it out and then deleted it since I knew it would be the bug zapper on a stick joke. :) It does make sense though.You can dodge bullets all you want, but what about the electricity in Provas, the Guardian staffs, and Amprex/Synapses?. Dodging lightning could be tough since it naturally seeks out something to connect with.
 

On 7/23/2016 at 2:10 AM, Hemmo67 said:

right

big bullets vs very tiny target are quite easy to avoid (take a look at antman the movie) dude's hopping on other guy's shoulders avoiding gunfire

Yes, but that doesn't explain damage vs. accuracy using video game logic like you originally spoke of.

Also, GR13V4NC3's point proved what I had thought in the first place, even if it was a writer and director that chose Antonny's fate. That enough bullets shot at a small target would sooner or later hit the target and destroy it. What wasn't added in there was that Antonny was born that small. It wasn't shrunk down like Ant-man was thus making it's molecular density as Gear-Hart mentioned the same as a creature who has always been that size.

I know this isn't an Ant-man discussion, but after thinking about it wouldn't Ant-man's increased density give him problems in the real world? For example, if he does compact down to a smaller size but keeps his density, why isn't he heavier? If he is, lets say, 220 pounds when he is human size, and all of that weight is compacted down into a half inch size; wouldn't that put 220 pounds pushing into the half inch space that he is standing on? I would imagine that having some sort of an affect on the world around him. Go back to jumping off of people's shoulders. How would you react if a marble with the weight of a human man landed on your shoulder and then used energy to propel itself off of your shoulder to create lift. 1, that would hurt! lol, and 2 the lift created would push off of your shoulder adding more weight to you. It's like jumping off of a scale. You weigh a certain amount, and if you jump up there is a brief second where the scale registers more weight being added because of the propulsion you created while lifting off of it. I'm sure there is some scientific word for all of this, but I'm not a scientist. I'm a gamer, a gamer that thinks getting hit with large items should hurt more than getting hit with small items. Isn't this why lots of people were excited about the Opticor when it was released? A giant laser being shot from a gun must do more damage than a small one, right? Getting hit with a large item hurts the Grineer, Infested, Corpus, Sentients more... just like it should hurt Titania more. She doesn't have to be destroyed by any means, but a noticeable amount of extra damage taken would make it more interesting, adding to the risk/reward factor of shrinking down.
How accuracy or density affects all of this, I don't know. I just think it makes more sense this way, than having the benefits of being small without any drawbacks.

I wish we had more information on her. DE, Can you help us out?

Edited July 24, 2016 by Keyse
Spelling

[zNightWolfz]

how about  wait till she is out and see what its like

[ObviousLee]

I like this thread. Following. 

[Xekrin]

On 7/22/2016 at 3:37 PM, Keyse said:

what happens when she is hit with a normal sized bullet, laser, or rocket?

Your are thinking too much as if she were flesh and blood faerie, think of it more as if a rocket hit a metal marble with super powers.  It might hurt but it'd ultimately just bounce her around a lot.  She'd be a lot denser magi-logically speaking, as all her original mass would be condensed into a much smaller form.  

That's how I see it anyway.  Regardless I wouldn't want to speculate too much until she's actually released, maybe they already thought of that.  We won't know until then.

[Shockwave-]

On 7/22/2016 at 3:37 PM, Keyse said:

Since Titania is going to be able to shrink down to fairy size, what happens when she is hit with a normal sized bullet, laser, or rocket? I imagine a Titania sized rocket hitting her would be significantly more painful than a normal sized rocket. Or even a normal sized Opticor blast... ouch. Also what if she gets hit with a melee weapon?

My opinion is that an increased damage rating (for lack of better words) would be more fun when she's smaller. It would require some extra thought and more strategy as to when shrinking would be best. As opposed to shrinking without any worry of being hit with enormous rounds of ammunition, or a giant baton that is being swung at her when Loki disarms the enemies.

In short, how will her shrinking affect the amount of damage Titania takes? Or will it matter?


Update 2

Damage, accuracy, density, weight... there's a little but of everything in here.

It woudln't do any more damage assuming the density of Titania is increased as she shrinks. Conservation of mass means to shrink would be to remove the space between atoms, which would make her tougher the smaller she got, so it would end up being a wash.

Of course if her shrinking is "magic" then we can just say she's magically just as tough as when she is big....

 

 

[Laidain]

c

Edited July 25, 2016 by Pratigious

[RealPandemonium]

Frame's not even out, which makes this not a feedback thread, but a speculation thread.  Wait until you get the frame to actually give feedback on it.  

[Keyse]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Frame's not even out, which makes this not a feedback thread, but a speculation thread.  Wait until you get the frame to actually give feedback on it.  

Which is why I posted this in the General Discussion section and not the Feedback section. :)

I originally posted this to see what the Devs and community thought about the idea; because if they liked the idea enough to add it, it would less traumatic to the community to have the mechanics added before she was released than after she was. People don't like change, especially if it means they get hurt more.
My OP started with a situation we will face, was followed by an opinion of what would happen (Yes, I did say it would be "more fun" to take more damage without even using her first, and I stand by that statement), and ended with an open question to the Devs so that they could educate me if they saw fit to do so.
Whether or not she has been released is beside the point. I still think it makes sense for a small character to take more damage than a large character providing the information given about the mechanics of the system (i.e. none so far). This is new territory for Warframe. But the question has been on my mind since they first announced her, and I figured I would ask before she got added into the game.
In the end, we all have to wait and see. But we can still talk about it in preparation for what is to come.

Thank you for yoouuur feedback! ;) I sincerely look forward to more. :)


Xekrin, you're right. I was thinking about a flesh and blood fairy. It hadn't dawned on me that the Tenno were anything but that. We do bleed out when we get slash procs after all. Seeing Titania get knocked around when hit was another thing on my mind, but I wasn't so comfortable asking about that since nearly everyone hated the Archwing getting knocked back when we hit a wall. I too very much disliked that feature. lol It's soooo annoying!!!

Shockwave-, Anything in the magic category can usually be covered by whatever we can imagine. And if something isn't explained by it already, we can make up something new. Magic could work, but I was hoping for something more realistic. Or at least as realistic as space ninjas that can shrink down being controlled by kids to fight a war against the universe under a genocidal mother figure can be. xD

Pratigious, I agree completely. :)


Thanks for the suggestions and answers everyone! There are a lot of ways to explain why this would, or why this wouldn't work.

[Arniox]

On 7/23/2016 at 7:37 AM, Keyse said:

Since Titania is going to be able to shrink down to fairy size, what happens when she is hit with a normal sized bullet, laser, or rocket? I imagine a Titania sized rocket hitting her would be significantly more painful than a normal sized rocket. Or even a normal sized Opticor blast... ouch. Also what if she gets hit with a melee weapon?

My opinion is that an increased damage rating (for lack of better words) would be more fun when she's smaller. It would require some extra thought and more strategy as to when shrinking would be best. As opposed to shrinking without any worry of being hit with enormous rounds of ammunition, or a giant baton that is being swung at her when Loki disarms the enemies.

In short, how will her shrinking affect the amount of damage Titania takes? Or will it matter?


Update 2

Damage, accuracy, density, weight... there's a little but of everything in here.

I actually don't like the idea of increased dmg rating. DE will probably add it in anyways, but I really liked the idea that when your small, the whole point of it is to dodge and avoid bullets. I'm just imagining if you had a bullet wiz past your head and it's this massive thing :P. I always thought titania was going to be able to shrink much, MUCH tinier and I'm  a little sad it's not that small. Cause I just imagined going stealth and creeping inside a grineer's suit and stabbing them directly in the skin. I wanted to be ant man size.

The one thing I am worried about is not damage increase to her, but in conclave 0_o it's going to be crazy hard to hit her in that.

Also, as you where saying, a dmg increase would make sense if she was much smaller, but if you watched the devstream till the end (77) you get to see her shrink and it's not that small at all. It's about 1/2 or maybe 1/3 of a warframe size so not that small. I expected the size of a frame like the bug you get in jv raid where you shrink to about 1/10 of a warframe size

[Rex13568]

5 minutes ago, Arniox said:

I actually don't like the idea of increased dmg rating. DE will probably add it in anyways, but I really liked the idea that when your small, the whole point of it is to dodge and avoid bullets. I'm just imagining if you had a bullet wiz past your head and it's this massive thing :P. I always thought titania was going to be able to shrink much, MUCH tinier and I'm  a little sad it's not that small. Cause I just imagined going stealth and creeping inside a grineer's suit and stabbing them directly in the skin. I wanted to be ant man size.

The one thing I am worried about is not damage increase to her, but in conclave 0_o it's going to be crazy hard to hit her in that.

Also, as you where saying, a dmg increase would make sense if she was much smaller, but if you watched the devstream till the end (77) you get to see her shrink and it's not that small at all. It's about 1/2 or maybe 1/3 of a warframe size so not that small. I expected the size of a frame like the bug you get in jv raid where you shrink to about 1/10 of a warframe size

Conclave might be hard but you can ground slam...then shoot her while she's stunned and fill her full of lead or plasma or arrows, throwing stars, rockets and or even penetrating ;)  bolter bolts.