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Number of Mod Slots/Capacity Needs a Rework


PhoeniixFiire
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24 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Would you be willing to do the math on additional mod configurations to back up that statement? Not trying to be rude, just curious.

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, but here goes. If you consider that we get a base capacity of 30, doubled to 60 with a reactor/catalyst, and then a maximum additional of 18 using the right aura, that gives a current absolute maximum of 78 mod capacity. I believe the current maximum capacity drain a mod can have is 16, if you, hypothetically, polarized every slot and put a mod that drains 16 into each, not including the exilus slot, that would be a total drain of 64, giving you a remaining 14 mod capacity to work with, or about 9 if you put on a mod into the exilus slot that is also polarized. This would mean you can feasibly have another 2 mods put on, based on your mod capacity. Even if those slots are then polarized, you can still probably only fit 3 reasonably leveled mods if you don't have your exilus slot filled. This situation is not even going to be your normal situation though. Most people are probably only going to have around 3-4 slots polarized, and then let's say their mods are an average drains of, say, 10, that's still only going to be 18 remaining mod capacity to work with, which will give you another few mods if you put in the time and resources to get those extra slots. This will allow newer players to put on more mods if they need a bit of a boost but can't yet level certains mods that high yet, but will also give veteran players a little more flexibility in their builds after adding forma and maxing mods. You see, the mod capacity is still going to be a limit, and the more mods you put on, the weaker they'll have to be to fit in under mod capacity, so it will balance itself out. Again though, giving everyone this option keeps the balance. Of course my idea might need some tweaking, like maybe limiting the number of extra slots you can add, but something, anything would be appreciated.

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1 minute ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

The mod capacity IS the hard limit. This wouldn't allow anyone to "break" the game, it's just allowing us to "level up" a little bit more with the extra capacity we have. The limit would still be that mod capacity and however much we decide to polarize slots. I fail to see how giving everyone this ability would somehow break the balance.

Dumfing already did the math for us, so I'll just refer you to his/her post.

2 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

This is basically the same idea as the exilus adapter, but taking it to another level. It's painful to see that extra mod capacity sitting there and me having absolutely no reasonable way to make use of it.

If I remember correctly, your Warframe's unused mod capacity is converted to additional starting energy at the beginning of every mission (somewhere around 5 points of energy for every unused capacity point), so there's definitely a reasonable use for it. Not sure if this includes weapon capacity, though. Will have to test for that later.

4 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

There are so many mods that are simply required to be of any use in the game, and once all those are on, you have little to no room for anything else of note, so the lesser mods just sit there collecting dust, only to be used momentarily by new players until they learn and get better mods.

For weapons mods, yes, but there are more reasonable alternatives to fixing that problem. For instance, eliminating damage mods and reworking weapons so that their damage increases with every rank. The multishot rework DE mentioned some time ago would also fall under this, but that business is a whole other can of worms I don't feel like opening right now.

Give people more mod slots, and they'll just slap on more damage mods. Like I said, with a system like that, the only noticeable change we'd see is people looking for more ways to augment their ability to cheese the game.

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6 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, but here goes. If you consider that we get a base capacity of 30, doubled to 60 with a reactor/catalyst, and then a maximum additional of 18 using the right aura, that gives a current absolute maximum of 78 mod capacity. I believe the current maximum capacity drain a mod can have is 16, if you, hypothetically, polarized every slot and put a mod that drains 16 into each, not including the exilus slot, that would be a total drain of 64, giving you a remaining 14 mod capacity to work with, or about 9 if you put on a mod into the exilus slot that is also polarized. This would mean you can feasibly have another 2 mods put on, based on your mod capacity. Even if those slots are then polarized, you can still probably only fit 3 reasonably leveled mods if you don't have your exilus slot filled. This situation is not even going to be your normal situation though. Most people are probably only going to have around 3-4 slots polarized, and then let's say their mods are an average drains of, say, 10, that's still only going to be 18 remaining mod capacity to work with, which will give you another few mods if you put in the time and resources to get those extra slots. This will allow newer players to put on more mods if they need a bit of a boost but can't yet level certains mods that high yet, but will also give veteran players a little more flexibility in their builds after adding forma and maxing mods. You see, the mod capacity is still going to be a limit, and the more mods you put on, the weaker they'll have to be to fit in under mod capacity, so it will balance itself out. Again though, giving everyone this option keeps the balance. Of course my idea might need some tweaking, like maybe limiting the number of extra slots you can add, but something, anything would be appreciated.

Not exactly what I was asking. I meant what exactly is the upper limit of ability with this newfound freedom. For example if a player were to take say an ember, now with a couple slots more they could build for both max power strength and increased range. They would be less hassled by the downside of mods like overextended, as other mods can easily nullify the drawbacks.

Edited by Omega-Shadowblade
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55 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Exilus has minor useful effects at best. With extra general mod slots, It is possible to ignore drawbacks of some mods and even surpass. I.e. Allowing the range of Overextended, With a still immense amount of power strength.

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ash_Prime/t_30_4020220420_3-8-5-4-1-5-6-6-5-12-5-10-13-3-3-46-0-5-49-7-10-411-4-10-479-2-10_46-6-4-9-479-7-13-13-411-8-12-8-6-11-49-8-3-18-f-f_0/en/1-0-37

These are all the mods that affects the 3 main ability attributes, strength, range, and duration, and they can all be put on your warframe already (though I can't see why you'd want to as many of them nearly cancel the effects of the others). The point here is, with extra slots, you won't suddenly have the ability to put on 5 or 6 mods that increase your power strength because, well, there aren't that many mods that increase power strength. We're still limited in our potential by the number of actual mods available to us. Adding an extra slot or two here would allow me to put on something like quick thinking, or vitality, or hell, how about antitoxin. That's a mod I would NEVER use EVER, unless maybe I had an extra slot, then maybe I'd consider it.

Edited by PhoeniixFiire
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They already revamped mod slots when they got rid of Ability mods and later with the Exilus slot. I think the idea behind moding is that you have to make critical choices on what you are willing to sacrifice for another mod. There should not be the ability to put in everything you want, because than everyone would run the same mods. Weapons run into this issue all the time where there are "go-to" builds and mods. If you don't feel the cost of an augment is worth it, don't use it. When the mods were created the idea was not to overpower the ability but to make it simply more dynamic in a new way. This doesn't mean its stronger or better than the original ability. It just give more customization to the individual to play that frame their way. They don't have a high capacity cost in general but yes they take up a mod slot. That should never change. There needs to be a sense of sacrifice when moding.

Edited by (PS4)Kamranos
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Just now, PhoeniixFiire said:

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ash_Prime/t_30_4244222220_3-8-5-57-3-5-568-0-5-572-1-3-578-6-5-611-9-5-673-4-5-675-7-5-726-5-5-727-2-5_568-8-572-8-727-8-57-8-673-8-726-8-578-8-675-8-3-18-611-9_0/en/1-0-37/0

These are all the mods that affects the 3 main ability attributes, strength, range, and duration, and they can all be put on your warframe already (though I can't see why you'd want to as many of them nearly cancel the effects of the others). The point here is, with extra slots, you won't suddenly have the ability to put on 5 or 6 mods that increase your power strength because, well, there aren't that many mods that increase power strength. We're still limited in our potential by the number of actual mods available to us. Adding an extra slot or two here would allow me to put on something like quick thinking, or vitality, or hell, how about antitoxin. That's a mod I would NEVER use EVER, unless maybe I had an extra slot, then maybe I'd consider it.

I... think that's the wrong link. 

Again, kind of the purpose. To put in all the stuff you want you have to give up things. Community won't give mods like Antitoxin a chance. I assure you, if they can, they'll put in mods that will boost potential. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Roachester said:

Dumfing already did the math for us, so I'll just refer you to his/her post.

If I remember correctly, your Warframe's unused mod capacity is converted to additional starting energy at the beginning of every mission (somewhere around 5 points of energy for every unused capacity point), so there's definitely a reasonable use for it. Not sure if this includes weapon capacity, though. Will have to test for that later.

For weapons mods, yes, but there are more reasonable alternatives to fixing that problem. For instance, eliminating damage mods and reworking weapons so that their damage increases with every rank. The multishot rework DE mentioned some time ago would also fall under this, but that business is a whole other can of worms I don't feel like opening right now.

Give people more mod slots, and they'll just slap on more damage mods. Like I said, with a system like that, the only noticeable change we'd see is people looking for more ways to augment their ability to cheese the game.

Well, I did my own math, which was actually more thorough than his, so I'll refer you to MY post.

Sure, if they did rework mods so that ones that do straight upgrades were just built in, then that would potentially free up slots. But how would mods like Stretch fit into that? That's a straight upgrade, but for some frames, you won't want more range for your abilities. There would be a ton of work needed to rebalance everything, and my idea would be a simpler solution.

Sure, some people might, or they might put on more utility mods, the point is giving the players choice. What I will continue to argue is whether there's just 8 slots or the ability to get more, people will always look for ways to cheese the game because that's what people do, but given the mods we have currently and the mod capacity as a limit, there's only so much anyone could do to cheese the game, and I think the benefits outweigh that possibility.

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2 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

 

Sure, some people might, or they might put on more utility mods, the point is giving the players choice. What I will continue to argue is whether there's just 8 slots or the ability to get more, people will always look for ways to cheese the game because that's what people do, but given the mods we have currently and the mod capacity as a limit, there's only so much anyone could do to cheese the game, and I think the benefits outweigh that possibility.

If that were true Devs would have left us the original 10 slots for frames when they made the whole ability change. They thought it through then, and they decided in the end 10 is too much.

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16 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

Not exactly what I was asking. I meant what exactly is the upper limit of ability with this newfound freedom. For example if a player were to take say an ember, now with a couple slots more they could build for both max power strength and increased range. They would be less hassled by the downside of mods like overextended, as other mods can easily nullify the drawbacks.

Not so because the mods that can nullify the drawbacks are already possible to equip alongside. Regardless of how many mod slots you have, there are still only 3 mods that increase power range, so the max power range is still the same. Max power damage is still the same. The amount of extra stats you'll be able to get is very minimal. You might get a little extra efficiency, or maybe slightly higher stats with the moon utility mods, but the impact should be very minimal.

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1 hour ago, CrudShuzKong said:

As always when these threads appear:

Make Augments exilus compatible. Most of them have trouble competing with normal mods in usefulness, but in comparison to exilus a lot of them might make it. (also sweet exilus adapter sales).

Some mods are definitely not balanced between their capacity cost and actual usefulness though, that might be a good thing to adress too.

Yes.

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8 minutes ago, (PS4)Kamranos said:

They already revamped mod slots when they got rid of Ability mods and later with the Exilus slot. I think the idea behind moding is that you have to make critical choices on what you are willing to sacrifice for another mod. There should not be the ability to put in everything you want, because than everyone would run the same mods. Weapons run into this issue all the time where there are "go-to" builds and mods. If you don't feel the cost of an augment is worth it, don't use it. When the mods were created the idea was not to overpower the ability but to make it simply more dynamic in a new way. This doesn't mean its stronger or better than the original ability. It just give more customization to the individual to play that frame their way. They don't have a high capacity cost in general but yes they take up a mod slot. That should never change. There needs to be a sense of sacrifice when moding.

There still won't be the ability to put in everything you want because you still have a mod capacity. You're still going to have to make critical choices...this just gives us another option to work with if we happen to have extra capacity to work with but no more slots. You just told me that there are go-to builds for most things, but then said the mods were meant to make the game more dynamic. These two things are mutually exclusive, and the problem is that these go-to builds are so much better than anything else that you'll basically go with that and then all those other cool utility, conditional mods go unused. When new mods come out, I basically never even touch them because they would screw up my already fine-tuned builds, but then I miss out on the interesting new mechanics they introduce. I don't like having to sacrifice actual modifiers simply because I need my strength to be as high as possible to be effective.

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1 minute ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

There still won't be the ability to put in everything you want because you still have a mod capacity. You're still going to have to make critical choices...this just gives us another option to work with if we happen to have extra capacity to work with but no more slots. You just told me that there are go-to builds for most things, but then said the mods were meant to make the game more dynamic. These two things are mutually exclusive, and the problem is that these go-to builds are so much better than anything else that you'll basically go with that and then all those other cool utility, conditional mods go unused. When new mods come out, I basically never even touch them because they would screw up my already fine-tuned builds, but then I miss out on the interesting new mechanics they introduce. I don't like having to sacrifice actual modifiers simply because I need my strength to be as high as possible to be effective.


And there is part of the issue. People only want the modifiers. That's all that will be used if more mod slots are allowed, and that's what the devs have to consider for the long run. Will the modifiers affect the interaction with the content. Doesn't matter if the occasional person will use it for other mods. 

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15 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I... think that's the wrong link. 

Again, kind of the purpose. To put in all the stuff you want you have to give up things. Community won't give mods like Antitoxin a chance. I assure you, if they can, they'll put in mods that will boost potential. 

 

You're right, I rearranged the mods but forgot to export to get the new link: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ash_Prime/t_30_4020220420_3-8-5-4-1-5-6-6-5-12-5-10-13-3-3-46-0-5-49-7-10-411-4-10-479-2-10_46-6-4-9-479-7-13-13-411-8-12-8-6-11-49-8-3-18-f-f_0/en/1-0-37

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19 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

If that were true Devs would have left us the original 10 slots for frames when they made the whole ability change. They thought it through then, and they decided in the end 10 is too much.

I don't think that's true. I think they decided on 10 because 10 would have been such a huge change from what people had originally. Since they had to put in abilities as mods, most likely every player was going to have around 2 ability mods at least, so that would leave them with 8 slots left, so giving us 8 slots basically made it equivalent to what most players would have had back then. I really don't think any number of slots would be too much, as long as the limit was the same for everyone, and in this case, the limit is dictated by the capacity, and if they choose to put in a limit to how many extra slots you could add. I'll leave the balancing up to them, but I still think it's a good idea.

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1 minute ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

That's for the most part still a pretty darn potent build. The only thing holding it back is efficiency. 

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8 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

 


And there is part of the issue. People only want the modifiers. That's all that will be used if more mod slots are allowed, and that's what the devs have to consider for the long run. Will the modifiers affect the interaction with the content. Doesn't matter if the occasional person will use it for other mods. 

Well, then maybe these new slots need to have a limiter to the types of mods that can be used, similar to the exilus slot. So add a new category for mods that only affect the physical warframe stats, like health, shields, energy capacity, armor, etc. This way people can't just put on more power strength mods or whatever, but are then encouraged to use a more diverse build.

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1 minute ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

That's for the most part still a pretty darn potent build. The only thing holding it back is efficiency. 

Not really...there's way more you could do, especially when you take into account the specific warframe. If you were modding ash for instance, you'd want to take out duration mods, and you wouldn't have much to substitute in those slots that would increase his abilities' potency, except efficiency mods. The point of it was that we have a limited number of mods that actually affect abilities, so more slots won't make a huge difference.

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1 minute ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

Well, then maybe these new slots need to have a limiter to the types of mods that can be used, similar to the exilus slot. So add a new category for mods that only affect the physical warframe stats, like health, shields, energy capacity, armor, etc. This way people can't just put on more power strength mods or whatever, but are then encouraged to use a more diverse build.

That.. doesn't exactly solve the problem either. Same basic problem. The desirable suivivability  mods are often enough of a solid choice that people choose them on habit.

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2 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

Not really...there's way more you could do, especially when you take into account the specific warframe. If you were modding ash for instance, you'd want to take out duration mods, and you wouldn't have much to substitute in those slots that would increase his abilities' potency, except efficiency mods. The point of it was that we have a limited number of mods that actually affect abilities, so more slots won't make a huge difference.

I feel that without having some way to test your theory, we both can't be certain. It is entirely possible that mod combinations will boost certain abilities in ways we can't make due to our restrictions. I.e. Creating a room covering effect while nullifying most drawbacks easily. The opposite could also be true and there is almost no noticeable affect. We just don't have the way to tell. 

If the devs want to try it, they'll test the options. I still find it highly unlikely considering their current stance on the mod limitations.

It is late for me so I'm calling it a night. 

 

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18 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

That.. doesn't exactly solve the problem either. Same basic problem. The desirable suivivability  mods are often enough of a solid choice that people choose them on habit.

Not really sure what you mean by that.

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13 minutes ago, Omega-Shadowblade said:

I feel that without having some way to test your theory, we both can't be certain. It is entirely possible that mod combinations will boost certain abilities in ways we can't make due to our restrictions. I.e. Creating a room covering effect while nullifying most drawbacks easily. The opposite could also be true and there is almost no noticeable affect. We just don't have the way to tell. 

If the devs want to try it, they'll test the options. I still find it highly unlikely considering their current stance on the mod limitations.

It is late for me so I'm calling it a night. 

 

This thread is an IDEA. I suppose you don't fully understand that. It's to offer a possible option to the devs for a problem I feel the game has. It's to get their gears turning. I'm not saying my idea should be implemented as is, I'm saying they should look into it and maybe try out some things until they find a good solution. And by the way, this whole idea is with the mindset that yes, things will change slightly. Like with the exilus slot, which also gave us the ability to increase our ability stats slightly, this is also give us that ability to a degree, but last time I checked, the exilus slot did not break the game or ruin balance, and I don't see this idea doing that either. It needs some tweaks, but I think it's a solid starting point for some much needed change.

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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Status is bland and boring, and elements are valued for their damage rather than effects. That should change.

 

Viral, Radiation, Magnetic, Blast  <- 4 out of 6 combinations are valued for Statuses. While you would expect Corrosive to be effective against armor.

Radiation might be used purely against armor - and that's legit since some guns just don't get a lot of status off while Radiation lasts for like 10 seconds, so for a full auto 10% status weapon, radiation is the best choice both for proc and damage-wise.

Gas is only effective when you can pull off a lot of damage, e.g. Banshee Silence on serro (which has insane status and range). You might think it's mostly for damage but it isn't.

I have, personally, rarely seen myself building around damage 2.0 tables, rather "spread poison or destroy shields for corpus, remove armor and health for grineer" what Gas/Magnetic and Viral/Corrosive do. And radiation is built against infested alot regardless of being bad of a damage type against them, but you disable ancient's aura with the proc.

TL;DR :  NO IT'S NOT. Go figure.

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40 minutes ago, PhoeniixFiire said:

Well, I did my own math, which was actually more thorough than his, so I'll refer you to MY post.

Sure, if they did rework mods so that ones that do straight upgrades were just built in, then that would potentially free up slots. But how would mods like Stretch fit into that? That's a straight upgrade, but for some frames, you won't want more range for your abilities. There would be a ton of work needed to rebalance everything, and my idea would be a simpler solution.

Sure, some people might, or they might put on more utility mods, the point is giving the players choice. What I will continue to argue is whether there's just 8 slots or the ability to get more, people will always look for ways to cheese the game because that's what people do, but given the mods we have currently and the mod capacity as a limit, there's only so much anyone could do to cheese the game, and I think the benefits outweigh that possibility.

Mods like Stretch wouldn't work into it at all, because they aren't mandatory. Like you said, it simply would not fit into certain builds, because not all builds call for the use of Power Range. Same goes for Power and Duration. Efficiency is a different story, along with Weapon Damage mods, Crit mods, Elemental Mods, Bane mods, etc. The point I'm driving at here is that if the mods themselves are the problem, then it's the mods themselves that need to be taken care of. If the problem isn't tackled at its root, then every other change made would serve as little more than a temporary solution, and that's only in the best case scenario. As long as mandatory mods exist, people will always continue to stack them as much as possible, because it's the most efficient way to do things.

Oh, and just to clear the air here, I'm not trying to suggest that your idea is inherently bad. However, implementing a change like this without fixing the core issue would more than likely complicate the issue further. A quick-and-easy example to use would be Draco, a node that was one symptom of a much bigger issue. People flocked to Draco because, with the sole exception of Spy and some Interception missions, gaining affinity was WILDLY inefficient; to that end, it made leveling and re-leveling gear a much bigger hassle than it needed to be, and it left the vast majority of the star map completely empty. Now the simple solution (the solution DE went with) would be to destroy Draco in order to coerce people into playing other missions, but they failed to address the fact that affinity gains still sucked, and as a result people almost immediately migrated to the next big loot cave. Long story short, removing Draco made a bad problem worse, and rather than having its intended effect, players just got pissed for a while and then continued with the habit. Virtually nothing changed.

Despite the impression I may have given off in my first post, I think having extra mod slots has the potential to make for some interesting builds, but I'm also of the belief that something absolutely HAS to be done about the mods before they even think about touching the modding system. Priorities and whatnot.

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29 minutes ago, pavlo555 said:

Viral, Radiation, Magnetic, Blast  <- 4 out of 6 combinations are valued for Statuses. While you would expect Corrosive to be effective against armor.

Radiation might be used purely against armor - and that's legit since some guns just don't get a lot of status off while Radiation lasts for like 10 seconds, so for a full auto 10% status weapon, radiation is the best choice both for proc and damage-wise.

Gas is only effective when you can pull off a lot of damage, e.g. Banshee Silence on serro (which has insane status and range). You might think it's mostly for damage but it isn't.

I have, personally, rarely seen myself building around damage 2.0 tables, rather "spread poison or destroy shields for corpus, remove armor and health for grineer" what Gas/Magnetic and Viral/Corrosive do. And radiation is built against infested alot regardless of being bad of a damage type against them, but you disable ancient's aura with the proc.

TL;DR :  NO IT'S NOT. Go figure.

Except applying statuses enough to make a noticeable difference means that you are not effectively killing the enemies you are shooting/smacking around. The only times players are not going to be effectively killing enemies in a split second are when they are too new to do enough damage - which precludes them having the mods to build for status - or when the enemies are so absurdly scaled that the status procs are what enable players to fight on closer to even footing - which is outside the scope of normal game balance anyway.

Did I say elements didn't have useful procs? No. I said they were more valuable for their multipliers than their procs, which holds true within the terms of "standard" play. It's the bonus elemental damage most of the time that gets you into one-shot territory.

Is it possible to build for status? Yes. Is it especially useful to do that except for giggles within the normal scope of gameplay? No. 

"But high levels is where most players play anyway."

I really don't care. My perspective is that the system should be useful throughout the game, regardless of level. Outside the scope of balanced gameplay is outside the scope of balanced gameplay... and the ultimate goal of my feedback is to improve the standard game enough that players don't need to venture into high levels hidden behind 30 minutes of mission to be challenged. 

Does the current system have a minimum level of functionality? Yes.

But that's beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.

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27 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I really don't care. My perspective is that the system should be useful throughout the game, regardless of level. Outside the scope of balanced gameplay is outside the scope of balanced gameplay... and the ultimate goal of my feedback is to improve the standard game enough that players don't need to venture into high levels hidden behind 30 minutes of mission to be challenged.

Okay, so from the first and this paragraph. you're saying that status should allow us to OS all the enemies just as all these mechanics do? Because DE balances around having you NOT to do so in "scope of balanced gameplay" regardless of what you use - crits of some things.

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