Amesha a bit overpowered?

[MegatronG1]

If you really want to test out Amesha, try it out on the Jordas Raid stage 3 and see how well you can keep yourself and your teammates alive while keeping the spore alive too.

[Relentless.Zen]

27 minutes ago, KJRenz said:

You can't die if you use the Amesha.

Thats wrong. Nobody can be 24/7 concentrated... earlier or later you make a mistake and if you are unlucky the whole team dies.

[shut]

Here is some Amesha gameplay footage.

Gotta love the nerf panic on these forums, as usual. It baffles me how there are so many players here who don't know or don't care about what kind of long-term damage things like this can cause for the game.

[johndlnord]

54 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Here is some Amesha gameplay footage.

Gotta love the nerf panic on these forums, as usual. It baffles me how there are so many players here who don't know or don't care about what kind of long-term damage things like this can cause for the game.

Nerf panic? Someone might / would say that because there'll always be that (new) kid that comes here, acting like they created the game, saying; buff this and nerf that, because I bought it with
Platinum or a sea of time and I want my roll-off-the-carpet-game now to be everything I want it to be. Before I need to apologise, I'm not pointing fingers at you or the OP. I'm just saying; giving decent feedback can be hard to do when you've not fully tested the new toys.
 

Edited July 24, 2016 by johndlnord

[TaylorsContraction]

People talking about enemy levels, my bar is Jordas verdict. Before Amesha we needed two people to do the soccer phase. I had to keep an eye out for all those high damage attacks jordas uses. Typically the closer you get to him the easier it is for him to nuke you.

 

But amesha trivializes all this. Now I can be solo with no risk just flying around doing whatever I want.

Why do I want it nerfed? For balance purposes. Lack of balance leads to trivialized content which is then very hard to make relevant again without major changes (nullifiers and damage 3.0). Archwing was pretty balanced before amesha, now we have a frame that's immortal. The only way to counter that is energy drain everywhere and DE isn't very inventive, they'll probably do just that.just to counter Amesha. But in this example the other archwings would suffer doubly.

Instead of going down the same path of overpowered things in normal missions that inevitably leadsto a cycle of nerfs, buffs and reworks, let's try get archwing right.

[DrBorris]

Ignoring the "Nerf a game mode not many people play, you are stupid" comments, I actually agree that Amesha is a bit too strong.

 

I hate to say it guys, but Archwing is MUCH (much, much, much, much) more balanced than on-foot gameplay. For the most part primary weapons are all on an equal foot (poor Corvas), modding does not increase your damage output by such an insane margin, and hard CC is not necessary to do even high level missions. That last one is the kicker, in on-foot you need hard CC to keep enemies at bay. Archwing however has been fine with the softer CC the first three Archwings gave. This means that it was more efficient to, you know, kill the enemies rather than stun the forever. Movement was integral, melee and primary fire have niches, and you never were able to macro.

 

Amesha killed a lot of that. The bubble gives a large area where you are basically immune to damage, her 3 has 0 gameplay interaction, and the ult gives you energy to do it all again. If you can sit on a MD point and jus push your 1-4 keys without shooting or moving, it is broken.

 

My recomended changes would be to make her 3 a cone in front of you (massive range still, but you need to aim) and maybe give it a wee buff to its slow effect to compensate. Then the bubble just needs a range nerf. Amesha is not that overpowered, it is just that it stands out next to the three incredibly balanced other Archwings (Odonata's missiles could still use a buff though).

[bluepheonix13]

20 hours ago, Trichouette said:

Cosmic crush doesn't deal that much damage, and unless the invisibility (that has a ridiculous cost) and the blink that is very useful, the rest is just a loot vacuum and a suicide drone army. (that doesn't even follow with blink, which is stupid)

Have you tried using it? Invisibilty has 5 energy/sec drain base (less then 2 with maxed dur and eff), which isn't as ridiculous as you think, given Itzal's max energy of 360 (540 with Auxiliary Power). Cosmic crush also does decent damage and is very easily spammable because you vacuum all energy orbs around you. Blink is very useful and the suicide army distracts a bit of enemy fire and does decent damage on exploding, although I agree that they are stupid for not following your blink.

 

I wouldn't mind a buff on Itzal, but IMO he is not as bad as some may think. Odonata has it worse.

[Nova]

Nonono lemme finish building this puppy before they nerf it

[bubbabenali]

13 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Amesha killed a lot of that. The bubble gives a large area where you are basically immune to damage, her 3 has 0 gameplay interaction, and the ult gives you energy to do it all again. If you can sit on a MD point and jus push your 1-4 keys without shooting or moving, it is broken.

You'repressing anything other than 2 on MD missions, why is that?

[IceColdHawk]

If you nerf amesha, don't forget to nerf hellion dargyns too. If we want balance, then we shall head for balance.

Edited July 25, 2016 by IceColdHawk

[bubbabenali]

3 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

If you nerf amesha, don't forget to nerf hellion dargyns too. If we want balance, then we shall head for balance.

The alternative would be to balance every new med tier enemy around Amesha - that would screw over the other archwings even more.

[IceColdHawk]

2 minutes ago, bubbabenali said:

The alternative would be to balance every new med tier enemy around Amesha - that would screw over the other archwings even more.

You mean like introducing huge bubble nullifiers which for aw settings can't be entered inside the bubble?

Sorry, but i like to play without setting my anus on fire.

[bubbabenali]

Just now, IceColdHawk said:

You mean like introducing huge bubble nullifiers which for aw settings can't be entered inside the bubble?

Sorry, but i like to play without setting my anus on fire.

Well, the enemy needs to get a chance right?

If there is an Archwing that makes the team immune to the enemies in general thanks to its abilities, what else than a Nullifier in space would be there to counter it?

[Trichouette]

1 hour ago, bluepheonix13 said:

Have you tried using it? Invisibilty has 5 energy/sec drain base (less then 2 with maxed dur and eff), which isn't as ridiculous as you think, given Itzal's max energy of 360 (540 with Auxiliary Power).

Actually I meant the opposite by "ridiculous"... I meant that the energy cost is close to NONE AT ALL. (sorry for the misunderstanding)

1 hour ago, bluepheonix13 said:

Cosmic crush also does decent damage and is very easily spammable because you vacuum all energy orbs around you.

It's spammable but doesn't deal THAT much damage, it would be useful if our melee weapon could hit more than 1 enemy but nope.

1 hour ago, bluepheonix13 said:

the suicide army distracts a bit of enemy fire and does decent damage on exploding, although I agree that they are stupid for not following your blink.

What's the point of an army of drones that distract enemy fire when they don't follow your blink AND they don't shoot when they're invisible, absolutely none since you stay most often invisible due to your squishiness and move mostly by blinking.

Gotta love these one-shoting missiles :D

Edited July 25, 2016 by Trichouette

[EmptyDevil]

On 7/24/2016 at 0:32 PM, SortaRandom said:

Here is some Amesha gameplay footage.

Gotta love the nerf panic on these forums, as usual. It baffles me how there are so many players here who don't know or don't care about what kind of long-term damage things like this can cause for the game.

I'd hardly call this a gameplay video. It seems like knee-jerk whining without taking several things into consideration. It's also using one of the easiest mission types in general(and possibly a bug. Remember Equinox healing defense objectives?) to attempt to make a point. Mobile defense in both Archwing and ground play can be trivialized with ease because it needs more threats added instead of just a moderate wave of enemies. Thumper, Snow Globe, Tectonics, Effigy, Electric Shield, and etc can do what is shown in the video to some degree. The ultimate fix would be to prevent it from healing the objective or to reduce the effectiveness of the heal on defense objectives(again most likely an oversight on DE's part).

The dumbest part in this video is the complaining over the abilities being the same. Let's take the basic element of what this Archwing provides and say all it's ability protect you from the same thing. First ability protects you from damage, the second ability converts some of the damage you take into healing pulses(still taking damage), the third ability protects you from status effects and slows enemies a little(still taking damage), and the fourth provides energy+buffs other abilities when you take damage. They all look original to me.

I'm not against nerfs, i'm all for them. If i had a choice in what to nerf first on the Amesha, it would be Watchful Swarm's Drone count because the wing is tanky to begin with.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Now me, I have loved Archwing since the inception of it, I was so very hyped for space combat and... I actually wasn't disappointed.

I found that it was very, very hard to get disoriented, very easy to go full ham in pretty much any frame and bounce around with a well modded melee weapon for incredible effect, then just switch back to mobile turret mode to mop up anything out of range. I never got lost, I loved both the free-roam of the grineer levels and the high-speed motorbike-in-space-clipping-every-inside-corner aspect of the trench runs, and now that the new controls and freedom is here? It took me about three runs to get used to the new system and back to my old tricks.

The Odonata is the all-rounder, it's the old Excalibur of the Archwing world, kinda needs the look over because nobody uses one of its abilities unless they're really, absolutely desperate and know exactly how to time it.

The Elytron is the Rhino, not because Rhino's a damage frame, or because the Elytron is a Tank, but because it's the 'other' frame, the one we go to next and the one that (until just now) was the best at locking down a point and providing a solid backbone to get through pretty much any mission type. Not fast, a little bulky, but always entered the room with a swagger.

And the Itzal became the Loki of the group, not a high health pool, goes invisible, and a great utility frame. Actually considered OP compared to the other two because of having a cc, an attack booster, a teleport for distance covering, and even a loot vacuum. In missions like the Fomorian attacks it's amazing, getting you to the objective, letting you hang out until the thing is unlocked completely in stealth mode, and then when abilities are nullified in the core, your weapons do the talking while you evade all the incoming mobs. Just how Loki is considered essential in many high-end runs, Itzal is essential if you want to last a while in high end Archwing runs.

But now we have the Amesha... hooo boy, I was looking forward to this one.

And I love it. I simply do. Because there is literally no reason for somebody not to bring one to every mission. We now have Damage, Utility and Health. Plus the Odonata needs to be given a more specific role, possibly the higher spec interceptor, for chasing down mobs...

The Amesha is a combo of heals, damage negation, CC and energy renewal, and it's like taking a combo of Trinity and Mag. You've got the magnetise bubble that heals you, why wouldn't you exploit the hell out of it?

Let's be honest, though, as far as things like defense, mobile defense, interception and even just wanting to pick up a downed team-mate goes, you can see why it's considered over powered.

With a few mods, that's 128m of protection for 30 seconds with Benevolent Decoy, which you can stack 3 times to make it nearly 400m and nearly a minute and a half of duration. And you can have 3 of these stacked bubbles active all at once. There's literally no way that a defense target will die with one of these on either side of it active. Just 2 Amesha can last nearly forever on a Defense mission, even to the point where their weapons do literally no damage to enemies, since they can recoup energy just by hitting 4 and standing in the way for a few seconds.

Except we now have more missions, rush and pursuit for two, at which it's better to have, say, Itzals and Odonatas...

Like I say, the Amesha can be considered over-powered, but for me as an avid archwing player, that's actually not a bad thing. It's not ideal, I would prefer a little more balance to them, but when you can now see one in practically every mission, even if you're not one, you know you're likely to live through it. Having a de-facto good pick for archwing is not a bad deal, it's actually making more people farm up and play archwing because they know they'll get through it with the Amesha where they wouldn't with the basic Odonata, the slow Elytron, or the fragile Itzal.

[robbybe01234]

On topic: 

Amesha seems to be doing what it was intended to do.  That is to enable players to feel powerful and handle content.  If you feel it should be diminished due to subjective reasons, that is a regressive course of action.  Content should be brought up to the task of handling Amesha's power, this would promote growth and actual engaging gameplay.   I would almost claim that we had been conditioned by sub-par weapons and abilities this far, so a package that is actually powerful and well considered seems OP by comparison.  But this is just me considering a mindset I'd need to have to conclude this is op.

Off topic:

On 7/24/2016 at 8:36 AM, Trichouette said:

Amesha and elytron are OP while itzal and odonata are... bad.

Itzal is pretty cool for fomorian missions because of the blink, and for tellurium farming thanks to the vacuum, but that's all.

Meanwhile amesha make all tenno immortal and elytron use 3 on a control point and it's free of enemies for a whole minute.

 

Same applies for archwing weapons, velocitus can OS any enemy while a lot of weapons just look like imperator 2.0

 

We don't need amesha nerfed but rather tweaked to remove the immortality, and odonata & itzal buffed.

Well, your conclusion about itzal and odonata being bad is wrong especially given your reasoning.  

I do agree that blanket immortality while still being able to kill enemies should be removed.  It's surprising though, I didn't think the amesha could do that much.

On 7/24/2016 at 8:49 AM, Chushingura said:

Right now, Archiwing is almost perfect with the new movements. In the last Devstream they explained that Camera angle will be improved. 

Oh comon friend, perfect?  This archwing? We're talking about warframe right?  If you and I are looking at the same thing then you really got to reevaluate your standards.  Even after the camera correction, this doesn't come close to "almost" perfect.

Edited July 26, 2016 by robbybe01234
spelling

[Death_Master_]

Finally they did a good archwing,  why complain they did a good thing?

Let's better ask them to power itzal and odonata up!

Let's fix broken things, not good things!

[bubbabenali]

2 hours ago, Death_Master_ said:

Finally they did a good archwing,  why complain they did a good thing?

Let's better ask them to power itzal and odonata up!

Let's fix broken things, not good things!

Getting the difference between good (Itzal/  Elytron) and throwing balance problems everywhere (Amesha) is a trait not everyone seems to inherit.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

On 24.7.2016 at 6:32 PM, SortaRandom said:

Here is some Amesha gameplay footage.

Gotta love the nerf panic on these forums, as usual. It baffles me how there are so many players here who don't know or don't care about what kind of long-term damage things like this can cause for the game.

i just don't understand the devs' reasoning behind implementing stuff like that. i mean that's not even some kind of tricky exploit, it's just using the skills it has like intended. and it's practically resulting in drinking bird "gameplay" which they so vehemently opposed in the past. and now this. and of course with the same update a high level mob def mission became the no.1 archwing affinity farming spot, too. just... why? this is so broken even on paper i refuse to believe it's some kind of oversight, there's a method to the madness, but which one i wonder? it's not like archwing was much of a challenge to begin with, pretty much all of them were borderline op anyhow (except odonata probably) but i guess this is goodbye to the last bit of excitement even there. archwing got its trinity alright... glad this gamemode is so negelected anyway for me to really even care.

[-N7-Leonhart]

On 7/24/2016 at 3:27 PM, Cyborg-Rox said:

If you ask me, this is kinda what we needed for Archwing. Something to bring the standard up for Archwings to make them much more viable overall, meaning levels higher than 30 are actually not suicide.

We don't have high level gameplay for archwing. All we have is that decent interception that everyone does 4 rounds of. Raising the bar pointlessly will only make the other archwings obsolete.

[yakri]

On 7/24/2016 at 5:24 AM, TaylorsContraction said:

And by a bit I meant a lot. Right now Amesha is a "roll your face across 1234 keys to win". That's not to say we don't have other frames like this but insteadof damage what Amesha gains from this is immortality and unlimited energy.

 

I'm not even sure how to fix her. Its 1 skill is amazing at stopping damage, and some other skill 4 for healing.  its gateway should be energy so the aw has to try to use the abilities tactically rather than oh it's whatever.

Eh, it's not really different from the itzal. If anything, itzal is much better since it's immortal, mobile, and deals damage. 

 

 

If you really had to nerf the amesha, I'd turn the invincibility into damage mitigation and leave the rest alone. It needs the healing and energy to have a place on a team.