Let's try talking about Relics 2.0 again

[Jukantos]

Hey guys, i think we've collected enough data and distance at this point to re-open discussion on the topic of relics 2.0 The original Thread on Thursday eventually got closed because it went off-topic and because we were missing exact specifics on the system to discuss it in its entirity which were obviously provided for us on the devstream on the friday after.

 

I'd ask you to keep this specifically on the topic of the systems advantages and disadvantages, as well as suggestions to improve it. I wouldn't wanna see it closed again. For anyone wanting to check out the original discussion, feel free to visit

but please read the actual full specifications of the changes below first :)

Gameplay Changes: Void Fissures are now going to affect a mission in its entirity, corrupting enemies and spawning batches at random in tears that repeatedly open in random spots of the map. Instead of plugging 10 little energy balls into a single fissure, these batches of enemies will drop the 10 required things to open a relic over the duration of the mission. Some additional killing might be required if you rush the mission objective, but either way it will increase the difficulty of the mission overall and affect enemy scaling, rather than resulting in a single 2 minute mini-game to be repeated over and over. Upon completing of the relic opening, it will hyper-boost either a weapon or the frame (one out of 4) at random, giving infinite energy, ammo, as well as damage boosts (for a not yet declared duration) leading to a crazy powerspike. Demonstration on the devstream failed to do so, but it will be live sooner or later.

This is i think universally a GIGANTIC improvement, as it decreases the sheer boredom of the "new" void which ironically was less varied than the old void farming. Steve agreed that the changes were a bit rushed, and this new system should make  things a lot better and more interesting.

NOW let's look at the technical / grinding side of things.

First positive change that was not announced before the devstream and thus lacking in thursdays thread was the increase of the maximum of void traces storeable. We will receive 50 additional void trace storing capacity per mastery rank, meaning a mastery rank 20 player is going to have 1100 void trace storage capacity (100 base + 20x50). This obviously allows for at least a decent degree of preparedness for a new prime release, as you will be able to immediatly supercharge any new relic you find.

But that's also where we come to the first controversial change. New Primes will be released in the form of completely new relics, and the relics our old keys have been converted into, will hold no value in acquiring new primes. This is what made me most disappointed about the changes, as it introduces two problems. 1) The old farming void defenses until you get that one out of eight prime drops is now going to be replaced by grinding normal relic farming missions until you get that one out of eight new relics that COULD have the new items in it (and even though we can pre-grind void traces there is still an additional layer of RNG on top of something that's pretty much as grindy as the old system) and 2) ANY prime item associated with the relics that have been created via conversion out of THOUSANDS of old keys players were hoarding will obviously be "forever available", but also completely worthless in price, as there will be WAY more relics than players, and probably way more potential sets of all the prime items than even players in the playerbase. All they will be good for is ducat conversion.

Speaking of Ducats, the values of items have been readjusted (if only i had handed in my giant stack of built nyx systems for 50 ducats each) and overall with the new game mode still being significantly slower and only awarding 1 item out of full relic share runs, acquiring ducats will be a lot more time consuming once more. At this point the amount of grinding that has to be done per week is approaching the amount that was initially necessary when baro was on a one-week rotation. Maybe his ducat prices need to go down a bit. (There isn't even a booster one can buy to increase ducat acquisition via platinum)

 

Overall, i think the changes are a very much twoedged sword. Grinding like crazy for Baro is gonna be annoying especially since the sets now available via the "common" relics have dropped in value incredibly (i've seen pretty much every weapon for under 20 plat and every frame for 50-100 except for the new vauban stuff) . Our key collections have been hit hard on the head, and we will face inevitable relic grinding with every new prime release now. Sure, it's necessary to have a high amount of time investment for new primes because there needs to be incentive for prime access, but i'm not sure shifting the grinding from void missions that spewed out crap prime items on the side for baro to just digging for relics (literally) for extended periods of time is going to make for a gameplay experience as satisfying as rampaging through survival for 40 minutes just doing my thing with my favourite weapons. Have to wait for the gameplay changes to be able to comment on that. Still a bit disappointed my key collection is being undercut here.

My biggest suggestion? Since we're allowed to stack up void traces now, maybe allow us to stack up relic packs from the syndicates as well. As in, let us keep them unredeemed in the relic collection up to a certain cap, so upon a new prime release, we can bust open some relic packs and maybe take a shot or two at something new right away. OBVIOUSLY i will be storing the maximum amount of syndicate points in all 4 possible syndicates (Meridian, Hexis, Suda and Red Veil) and i will be able to redeem them immediatly upon release of a new prime, but that's a bit obnoxious to work with (in particular charging up hexis without making red veil hate me is a lot of work).

Mathematically that would enable me to redeem up to 24 relic packs (4x6) on the release of a new prime without throwing money at it. But that's basically only realistically available to me because my daily cap of syndicate points is so high (23000 at MR 22) and is a bit annoying for new players. Being able to store 10-20 relic packs in the relic refinement segment instead would once again allow for player preparation. Heck you could even introduce a new resource to be dropped from missions that allows players to craft relic packs (5x "Relic Fragments" -> 1 relic pack?) instead of dropping specific relics directly, with an inventory cap on it. Some way to bring back real preparedness for more than just void traces to upgrade the relics that will take a lot of time to dig up would keep the time investment in between prime releases more rewarding :)

Finally, i want to apologize for the *bleep*storm i caused last thursday. I never ment for things to go off topic that far, and i was upset that my key collection was going to get bypassed so hard less than a month after the release of relics. I was angry at myself for not investing more time beforehand farming multiple prime items out of keys for ducats, and despite my attempts to stay cool about it, i let the thread slip into cynicism. Sorry about that mess.

What do you think fellow Tenno? Do the pro's (void trace storing, old primes available forever) outweight the cons? (new relic grinding, old prime devaluation)

Edited July 25, 2016 by Jukantos

[Lactamid]

Made this before as a little improvement idea on the relic selection menu.

Basically it would let you see what you had on the fly showing if you had mastered something, got the part already (how many) and also show if relics were "completed" (meaning you had already maxed everything in there).

The "FARM" bar would show you thing you still have left.
The list would work like this, Items show up with their icon, name, and relic required to farm them. If you don't have the relic the name will be darker. Clicking on an item in the list would select the relic needed for your mission.

This list could display things like:
User: shows items manually selected from a list that you made - this list would show relics from every era (selected mission era items on top)
Unaccuired: shows all items you do not have yet.
Meso/Lith/Neo/Axi/???: shows all items in that era.
Set: groups parts together across all eras and relics (ie. vauban prime BP, chassis, system, helmet) 

[Ketec]

Gameplay Changes: 

There is a hidden problem in there. TIME. Rewards did not get better in any way, instead you spend more time running around, looking for rifts, backtracking to finally seal it.
I wouldn't be amazed if it waaay takes  longer for one run.

It reduces trace and ducat and prime farm rates considerably. 
Right now a capture or similar run can be finished ~7 min for casual players. Add the new system and it easily grows to 15+ minutes.

And you can bet the fixed trace rate will be way below 25.

The weapon corruption is also a worthless feature. When im done sealing i  want to finish and leave the mission - why do i need a short buff anymore?

I just see a nerf that makes  everything slower and harder to get. Unless they up the  rare drop rates +  a min of 25 traces per run.

[-CCC-Secret]

8 minutes ago, Lactamid said:

Made this before as a little improvement idea on the relic selection menu.

Basically it would let you see what you had on the fly showing if you had mastered something, got the part already (how many) and also show if relics were "completed" (meaning you had already maxed everything in there).

The "FARM" bar would show you thing you still have left.
The list would work like this, Items show up with their icon, name, and relic required to farm them. If you don't have the relic the name will be darker. Clicking on an item in the list would select the relic needed for your mission.

This list could display things like:
User: shows items manually selected from a list that you made - this list would show relics from every era (selected mission era items on top)
Unaccuired: shows all items you do not have yet.
Meso/Lith/Neo/Axi/???: shows all items in that era.
Set: groups parts together across all eras and relics (ie. vauban prime BP, chassis, system, helmet) 

+1 for that great idea.

[RahuHordika]

A little bit of a shameless plug but...

Just a little suggestion here to deal with the problem of stacking relics, it is just unacceptable that what we have stacked is useless to some of us and will just collect dust forever, and in the end stacking will happen as a byproduct of farming for a specific relic or even just regular gameplay so we will inevitable too stack relics that won't have any use after the new primes are obtained.

(Any form of feedback to could be placed directly in this thread would be widely appreciated)

Edited July 25, 2016 by RahuHordika

[Rioma]

The void fissure changes seem alright. As long as they reduce the bloom on those fissures. . .man those were blinding. And the super charged weapon/frame once the fissure is closed sounds pretty neat.

Needing to grind new relics for new gear. Currently at MR 22 I don't see much reason to play the game. DE made my favorite 2 mission types pointless (void sab & cap). And the current void fissure system is super boring. On top of that they just told me any time put into grinding relics is pointless because there is 0% chance any of those relics i get right now can get me a new prime. So once the new primes come out what is after that? Once i acquire the 3 new primes all relic farming after that is pointless once again. For vet players it seems pretty bad. Maybe if you're new or still have a fair amount of primes to grind for it might seem nice.

[Jukantos]

6 hours ago, xXRiomaXx said:

Once i acquire the 3 new primes all relic farming after that is pointless once again. For vet players it seems pretty bad.

There's another problem that new players will face as a result of this change. MASSIVE price differences between three different stages of primes.

1) All the already vaulted primes from Frost to Loki. These will only go up and up and up in price because there are no relics that have them as drops in anyones inventory. It was mentioned Baro MIGHT be bringing them around, but then we're talking about investing ducats, a HARD to acquire resource, into relics that only equate to relatively small RNG chances of getting the rare outcome of that relic, even with full refinement. The prices for these will become more and more ridicolous than they already have (Ember Prime selling at 1500 platinum, ha)

2) The block of primes between Mag and Vauban. These are the Primes that TONS AND TONS AND TONS, we are probably talking seven digit figures of keys have been converted into relics for. All of these items will forever be super available and cheap, and basically impossible to sell to anyone but newcomers, as there are more relics and possible sets in circulation than our tenno population could ever need. These are also gonna be the ones you convert into ducats, so at some point in the future they may be used up, but for now their platinum / trading value has been nuked completely out of the solar system. If anything these are now worth buying in bunches for ducat acquisition.

3) All new primes from Nekros onwards. These will require INTENSE farming to acquire, beating not one but TWO RNG systems, even if you have tools provided to make the second layer less awful. Their prices particularly at launch and after vaulting will be SKY high. Release Day Vauban selling for 800 plat is going to look like a joke next to what a Nekros Prime set will cost. And while this initial price push is always logical and a necessary incentive to create Prime Access Sales, it will be hurtful in the long run. Especially while we still have a lot of Category 2) Relics in the drop rotations people won't have much incentive to go relic farming as soon as they've managed to grab the new prime. And without a lot of relic farming, there won't be a lot of relics and parts on the market after a prime is vaulted. Which will drive prices nuts. Problematic, to say the least.

This weird pricing curve is going to impact all of warframes trading for a LONG time to come as a result of these changes. And if i see Baro with Ember Relics for 200-450 Ducats each i'm probably gonna flip my desk xD

[Iceorama]

Spoiler

7 hours ago, Lactamid said:

Made this before as a little improvement idea on the relic selection menu.

Basically it would let you see what you had on the fly showing if you had mastered something, got the part already (how many) and also show if relics were "completed" (meaning you had already maxed everything in there).

The "FARM" bar would show you thing you still have left.
The list would work like this, Items show up with their icon, name, and relic required to farm them. If you don't have the relic the name will be darker. Clicking on an item in the list would select the relic needed for your mission.

This list could display things like:
User: shows items manually selected from a list that you made - this list would show relics from every era (selected mission era items on top)
Unaccuired: shows all items you do not have yet.
Meso/Lith/Neo/Axi/???: shows all items in that era.
Set: groups parts together across all eras and relics (ie. vauban prime BP, chassis, system, helmet) 

 

Add a search bar for searching for a part without going though and checking multiple keys and this would be golden.

Spoiler

8 hours ago, Jukantos said:

Hey guys, i think we've collected enough data and distance at this point to re-open discussion on the topic of relics 2.0 The original Thread on Thursday eventually got closed because it went off-topic and because we were missing exact specifics on the system to discuss it in its entirity which were obviously provided for us on the devstream on the friday after.

 

I'd ask you to keep this specifically on the topic of the systems advantages and disadvantages, as well as suggestions to improve it. I wouldn't wanna see it closed again. For anyone wanting to check out the original discussion, feel free to visit

but please read the actual full specifications of the changes below first :)

Gameplay Changes: Void Fissures are now going to affect a mission in its entirity, corrupting enemies and spawning batches at random in tears that repeatedly open in random spots of the map. Instead of plugging 10 little energy balls into a single fissure, these batches of enemies will drop the 10 required things to open a relic over the duration of the mission. Some additional killing might be required if you rush the mission objective, but either way it will increase the difficulty of the mission overall and affect enemy scaling, rather than resulting in a single 2 minute mini-game to be repeated over and over. Upon completing of the relic opening, it will hyper-boost either a weapon or the frame (one out of 4) at random, giving infinite energy, ammo, as well as damage boosts (for a not yet declared duration) leading to a crazy powerspike. Demonstration on the devstream failed to do so, but it will be live sooner or later.

This is i think universally a GIGANTIC improvement, as it decreases the sheer boredom of the "new" void which ironically was less varied than the old void farming. Steve agreed that the changes were a bit rushed, and this new system should make  things a lot better and more interesting.

NOW let's look at the technical / grinding side of things.

First positive change that was not announced before the devstream and thus lacking in thursdays thread was the increase of the maximum of void traces storeable. We will receive 50 additional void trace storing capacity per mastery rank, meaning a mastery rank 20 player is going to have 1100 void trace storage capacity (100 base + 20x50). This obviously allows for at least a decent degree of preparedness for a new prime release, as you will be able to immediatly supercharge any new relic you find.

But that's also where we come to the first controversial change. New Primes will be released in the form of completely new relics, and the relics our old keys have been converted into, will hold no value in acquiring new primes. This is what made me most disappointed about the changes, as it introduces two problems. 1) The old farming void defenses until you get that one out of eight prime drops is now going to be replaced by grinding normal relic farming missions until you get that one out of eight new relics that COULD have the new items in it (and even though we can pre-grind void traces there is still an additional layer of RNG on top of something that's pretty much as grindy as the old system) and 2) ANY prime item associated with the relics that have been created via conversion out of THOUSANDS of old keys players were hoarding will obviously be "forever available", but also completely worthless in price, as there will be WAY more relics than players, and probably way more potential sets of all the prime items than even players in the playerbase. All they will be good for is ducat conversion.

Speaking of Ducats, the values of items have been readjusted (if only i had handed in my giant stack of built nyx systems for 50 ducats each) and overall with the new game mode still being significantly slower and only awarding 1 item out of full relic share runs, acquiring ducats will be a lot more time consuming once more. At this point the amount of grinding that has to be done per week is approaching the amount that was initially necessary when baro was on a one-week rotation. Maybe his ducat prices need to go down a bit. (There isn't even a booster one can buy to increase ducat acquisition via platinum)

 

Overall, i think the changes are a very much twoedged sword. Grinding like crazy for Baro is gonna be annoying especially since the sets now available via the "common" relics have dropped in value incredibly (i've seen pretty much every weapon for under 20 plat and every frame for 50-100 except for the new vauban stuff) . Our key collections have been hit hard on the head, and we will face inevitable relic grinding with every new prime release now. Sure, it's necessary to have a high amount of time investment for new primes because there needs to be incentive for prime access, but i'm not sure shifting the grinding from void missions that spewed out crap prime items on the side for baro to just digging for relics (literally) for extended periods of time is going to make for a gameplay experience as satisfying as rampaging through survival for 40 minutes just doing my thing with my favourite weapons. Have to wait for the gameplay changes to be able to comment on that. Still a bit disappointed my key collection is being undercut here.

My biggest suggestion? Since we're allowed to stack up void traces now, maybe allow us to stack up relic packs from the syndicates as well. As in, let us keep them unredeemed in the relic collection up to a certain cap, so upon a new prime release, we can bust open some relic packs and maybe take a shot or two at something new right away. OBVIOUSLY i will be storing the maximum amount of syndicate points in all 4 possible syndicates (Meridian, Hexis, Suda and Red Veil) and i will be able to redeem them immediatly upon release of a new prime, but that's a bit obnoxious to work with (in particular charging up hexis without making red veil hate me is a lot of work).

Mathematically that would enable me to redeem up to 24 relic packs (4x6) on the release of a new prime without throwing money at it. But that's basically only realistically available to me because my daily cap of syndicate points is so high (23000 at MR 22) and is a bit annoying for new players. Being able to store 10-20 relic packs in the relic refinement segment instead would once again allow for player preparation. Heck you could even introduce a new resource to be dropped from missions that allows players to craft relic packs (5x "Relic Fragments" -> 1 relic pack?) instead of dropping specific relics directly, with an inventory cap on it. Some way to bring back real preparedness for more than just void traces to upgrade the relics that will take a lot of time to dig up would keep the time investment in between prime releases more rewarding :)

Finally, i want to apologize for the *bleep*storm i caused last thursday. I never ment for things to go off topic that far, and i was upset that my key collection was going to get bypassed so hard less than a month after the release of relics. I was angry at myself for not investing more time beforehand farming multiple prime items out of keys for ducats, and despite my attempts to stay cool about it, i let the thread slip into cynicism. Sorry about that mess.

What do you think fellow Tenno? Do the pro's (void trace storing, old primes available forever) outweight the cons? (new relic grinding, old prime devaluation)

 

As to your final question, No. No it does not. Especialy since currently farming these relics is a pain in the &#! since there aren't very good farms for Relics outside of Hieracon which only does Axi keys. We need single tier excavations that we can get all the keys for that specific tier at a reliable pace so there aren't any problematic keys period. Precision farming was the benifit of starchart 2.0, 3.0 pisses me off in that regard (ESPECIALY Deception being gone. Thats gonna make grabbing Kuria 12-3 all the harder since capture isn't that fast to be honest). As to the old relic new relic system... Blech. I'd rather keep the current vaulting system and just move the vaulted items to the Eximus relics, of which rotate inventories every other week when baro shows up so you can at least stockpile eximus keys and know that if the stuff you want aren't on your keys this week they'll be on them next week.

Semi-Relivant Rant brought about by relics as well

Spoiler

And on another note of a particular agreviance that Relics have made painfully aware, We need a Leader/Host system so people know who is the host, and who is the Leader. Leaders (the people who created the group and who is likely the host unless there is a better host available) need to be able to kick people from the group as relic leaches are impossible to do anything about currently and is absolutely infuriating, which brings me to my next point: Group leaders need to be able to know if someone is leaching and using a key that isn't what the group leader is wanting the group to use and also prevent the game from starting untill they are satisfied, possibly by making it so the leader can set up the lobby to make pressing accept only bring up a particular relic (So you are only allowed to pick an Axi N1 Relic of any refinement for example) that is displayed in the mission select name. Timers should be something that players should be able to vote to start when the leader enables it. This "All players have selected a relic/pressed accept" is a horrible system.

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Iceorama
Putting the posts in soilers to shrink the wallage for the good of all Tenno-kind, Despite the fact that you can do that with the actual posts. REDUNDANCY BOIS

[Lactamid]

3 minutes ago, Iceorama said:

Add a search bar for searching for a part without going though and checking multiple keys and this would be golden.

True.

Since we're getting more void trace capacity there could be a quick-upgrade too.
Select relic - upgrade 1-2-3 

[Xzorn]

12 hours ago, Ketec said:

Gameplay Changes: 

There is a hidden problem in there. TIME. Rewards did not get better in any way, instead you spend more time running around, looking for rifts, backtracking to finally seal it.
I wouldn't be amazed if it waaay takes  longer for one run.

It reduces trace and ducat and prime farm rates considerably. 
Right now a capture or similar run can be finished ~7 min for casual players. Add the new system and it easily grows to 15+ minutes.

And you can bet the fixed trace rate will be way below 25.

The weapon corruption is also a worthless feature. When im done sealing i  want to finish and leave the mission - why do i need a short buff anymore?

I just see a nerf that makes  everything slower and harder to get. Unless they up the  rare drop rates +  a min of 25 traces per run.

The rework also removed the gap between players who setup for success and farm 100 Traces in a single run thereby chain running Radiants x4 .With players who still manage to not understand how the Fissures work and get far less. Now there doesn't seem to be any way to maximize your intake.

To OP: If they put more varied Relics on the higher planets I'd be a lot more tolerant of Void 2.0. They wanted to get players to play accross the star map more but they keep the level based key drop locations. If I want a Lith Relic I get newbie rotation rewards. As it stand I refuse to do anything that doesn't result in R5 x5 rolls. It's a waste of my time to farm anything else. I'll just buy whatever I want with the plat I made. The rework is better but it's still not good. We still have a problem with endless missions and less to do as a result. .

 

[SonicSonedit]

Everything is simple

[CroqueMortTime]

On 26/07/2016 at 1:09 AM, Iceorama said:

Add a search bar for searching for a part without going though and checking multiple keys and this would be golden.

 

We really need that search bar ! I am surprised it is not implemented yet...

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

can't say i dig it.

collecting 10 reactants is just something you do along the way, it's so trivial it feels completely meaningless. not that closing the fissures (aka whack-a-mole) was particularly hard or brilliantly designed, but it was something. now it's like "just kill a handful of mobs", warframe as usual. to me this further pushes the demystification of everything void. also the permanent and random corrupted enemy spawns can become really annyoing in rescue / spy missions. apart from that the new systems still totally fails to give an incentive for going endless (which to me is a GOOD thing, but since they sound like that's something they wanted to achieve in the release notes i guess it's worth noting).

so yeah i kinda liked relics 1.0 better. sure, mandatory loot frames were bad, but this could've been solved otherwise.

as for making my hundreds of keys more or less worthless + the outlook of having to farm new relics for every prime access: impudence, sure but well, can't say i'm suprised. hooray for reduced grind, again!

[Kitzun]

I played the new system a little and I find it vastly superior to the last fissure one, now we play the missions themselves instead of playing a fissure mission with a tacked on objective; the fissure closing has been folded into the mission instead of being a parasite on it.

Well done DE, it's gloriously thought, for this one time you deserve a good pat on the head and to ask the suits about pay raises, the customer I am said so.

Now, congratulations aside, there are still some rough edges that stay frustrating:

-we need the have the ducat price of each part written down somewhere on the end mission select screen, there are dozens of parts obtainable and we simply can't remember the ducat prices for all of them, we need to be able to see how many ducats each part available at mission end is worth;

-a search bar for prime parts in the relic refinement screen would be a good thing, it would allow a player to have a clear schedule;

-reactants are not attracted by carrier's vacuum, is it intended ?

Now a question: are void traces amount affected by the fissure's tier, higher tiers giving more of them ?

If not, it would be a good idea to do so.

[-CCC-Secret]

12 minutes ago, Kitzun said:

I played the new system a little and I find it vastly superior to the last fissure one, now we play the missions themselves instead of playing a fissure mission with a tacked on objective; the fissure closing has been folded into the mission instead of being a parasite on it.

Well done DE, it's gloriously thought, for this one time you deserve a good pat on the head and to ask the suits about pay raises, the customer I am said so.

Now, congratulations aside, there are still some rough edges that stay frustrating:

-we need the have the ducat price of each part written down somewhere on the end mission select screen, there are dozens of parts obtainable and we simply can't remember the ducat prices for all of them, we need to be able to see how many ducats each part available at mission end is worth;

-a search bar for prime parts in the relic refinement screen would be a good thing, it would allow a player to have a clear schedule;

-reactants are not attracted by carrier's vacuum, is it intended ?

Now a question: are void traces amount affected by the fissure's tier, higher tiers giving more of them ?

If not, it would be a good idea to do so.

Well the ducat prices are gonna be changed so at least telling us what rarity it is would be better. They plan to change ducat prices for common parts to 15, uncommon to 45 and rare to 100. So knowing what rarity the primes are would be easier, at least I know which would be better to get.

Edited July 27, 2016 by secret9005

[Kitzun]

19 minutes ago, secret9005 said:

Well the ducat prices are gonna be changed so at least telling us what rarity it is would be better. They plan to change ducat prices for common parts to 15, uncommon to 45 and rare to 100. So knowing what rarity the primes are would be easier, at least I know which would be better to get.

I went to a kiosk to verify, they have already been changed.

And that's why i don't get why the price in ducats is not on the reward screen, it's already on the kiosk screen in relays, it would be something evident to do.

[-CCC-Secret]

1 hour ago, Kitzun said:

I went to a kiosk to verify, they have already been changed.

And that's why i don't get why the price in ducats is not on the reward screen, it's already on the kiosk screen in relays, it would be something evident to do.

Well it is also nice to add that but IMO, showing rarity is more needed. Now that the ducat prices are standardized, it's easier to tell how much something is worth by knowing it's rarity. It's easier to remember the ducat prices, than every rare part in each relic. But we can also have both, it would just be a bit cluttered. Ducat prices can also be added at the relic refinement segment.

[Jukantos]

On 26.7.2016 at 1:09 AM, Iceorama said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Semi-Relivant Rant brought about by relics as well

  Reveal hidden contents

And on another note of a particular agreviance that Relics have made painfully aware, We need a Leader/Host system so people know who is the host, and who is the Leader. Leaders (the people who created the group and who is likely the host unless there is a better host available) need to be able to kick people from the group as relic leaches are impossible to do anything about currently and is absolutely infuriating, which brings me to my next point: Group leaders need to be able to know if someone is leaching and using a key that isn't what the group leader is wanting the group to use and also prevent the game from starting untill they are satisfied, possibly by making it so the leader can set up the lobby to make pressing accept only bring up a particular relic (So you are only allowed to pick an Axi N1 Relic of any refinement for example) that is displayed in the mission select name. Timers should be something that players should be able to vote to start when the leader enables it. This "All players have selected a relic/pressed accept" is a horrible system.

 

The third one LUCKILY has been addressed, you can now see exactly what relics your teammates have equipped under their name. It's listed at the very top, they used the Dragon Key system that already existed for the derelict vaults. So now you can easily check if someone is trying to leech / use a non-refined relic. At least THAT has been adressed.

[LiatinTX]

Biggest issue i have with relics 2.0 is with certain mission types for lith and meso. Most notably in extermination missions. For example the a party of 4 has to kill 33 enemies.. Thats not enough to get 10 void reactants especially since it seems the fissures stop after you kill all of the enemies. And in some other missions like capture or sabotage the fissures spawn few and far between. Most times we're stuck running around to see if we missed a reactant or look for fissures. Makes grinding for void traces really annoying.

on another note i wish we could bring in more than one of the same type of relic to open. Having to wait between missions is boring especially if you dont care so much about the reward but the traces. Or... You know.. Let us farm traces like maybe get traces for every 10 reactants collected...

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

I wanted to reply to the original topic, but it was closed the next day, so I'm glad I found this one. That said, here is my own personal rant on the new 'Relic 2.0' system:

 

The new relic system, and specifically way it interacts with Prime Access, is the best possible thing DE could do for there short-term financial gain, and the worst thing for their long-term player-base retention and overall longevity.

Sure it encourages farming for relics once every 2-3 months when Prime Access comes out, but in between there will be no reason to farm relics after you get what you want/sell what you didn't from the latest Prime Access. Thus, the grind is no longer "The daily grind" but instead "The one month out of three grind". This reduces the incentive to keep playing daily, leaving login rewards and sortie missions to try to keep us interested.

Before, if you wanted to make platinum off of prime parts, you saved up keys, then ran them like nobody's business when the newest prime came out. Now, your 1000+ relics that came from those stockpiled keys won't be worth much until the items they contain are vaulted, which won't occur until about a year from now for the majority of relics out there. (This doesn't even address the fact that, in a year, DE will be running out of letter-number combinations for all the different items and 'vault repairs'{replacing non-vault items in vaulted relics} they will be releasing, unless, of course, the system drastically changes again. There is a simple solution for this, but it should be placed in "Suggestions", not here.) This further emphasizes the soon-to-come trend of simply leaving Warframe for 2-3 months, before coming back to get the newest stuff, then disappearing again.

The main reason I see for this change, from DE's perspective, is the re-establishment of platinum and Prime Access as the most valuable resource in the game. By moving prime part acquisition and trading from a savings-based economy (save up keys for future primes, save up prime parts for future vaultings) to a debt-based/futures economy (buy prime access from DE for currency or buy relics {futures} from others for platinum to get new primes; sell and trade relics {futures} for stuff that has been vaulted). The only 'savings' that can still be done is of prime parts that are vaulted or soon will be, but even that has been devalued as the prices won't rise until the overwhelming majority of the vaulted relics have been run. So, once again, reinforcing the idea that, if you want to obtain plat in Warframe, you are best off only playing every 2-3 months, and simply logging in every day in the mean time.

Even for a player like me, who never bothered with stockpiling keys, this change still makes it harder to obtain plat, and increases the platinum cost if I want to buy the newest prime parts withing the first 2-3 weeks of release, as they will be even more rare than before.

No matter who's perspective you use to look at Relics 2.0, DE is the only winner, and even that won't last long.

 

PS: I am fully aware that this was a rant. That said, I will not edit or remove a single word unless someone can offer proof that it was wrong (this includes spelling/punctuation; if it's wrong, let me know).

Edited August 1, 2016 by Cano_Lathra
Spelling/Punctuation

[Iceorama]

Spoiler

On 8/1/2016 at 3:07 PM, Cano_Lathra said:

I wanted to reply to the original topic, but it was closed the next day, so I'm glad I found this one. That said, here is my own personal rant on the new 'Relic 2.0' system:

 

The new relic system, and specifically way it interacts with Prime Access, is the best possible thing DE could do for there short-term financial gain, and the worst thing for their long-term player-base retention and overall longevity.

Sure it encourages farming for relics once every 2-3 months when Prime Access comes out, but in between there will be no reason to farm relics after you get what you want/sell what you didn't from the latest Prime Access. Thus, the grind is no longer "The daily grind" but instead "The one month out of three grind". This reduces the incentive to keep playing daily, leaving login rewards and sortie missions to try to keep us interested.

Before, if you wanted to make platinum off of prime parts, you saved up keys, then ran them like nobody's business when the newest prime came out. Now, your 1000+ relics that came from those stockpiled keys won't be worth much until the items they contain are vaulted, which won't occur until about a year from now for the majority of relics out there. (This doesn't even address the fact that, in a year, DE will be running out of letter-number combinations for all the different items and 'vault repairs'{replacing non-vault items in vaulted relics} they will be releasing, unless, of course, the system drastically changes again. There is a simple solution for this, but it should be placed in "Suggestions", not here.) This further emphasizes the soon-to-come trend of simply leaving Warframe for 2-3 months, before coming back to get the newest stuff, then disappearing again.

The main reason I see for this change, from DE's perspective, is the re-establishment of platinum and Prime Access as the most valuable resource in the game. By moving prime part acquisition and trading from a savings-based economy (save up keys for future primes, save up prime parts for future vaultings) to a debt-based/futures economy (buy prime access from DE for currency or buy relics {futures} from others for platinum to get new primes; sell and trade relics {futures} for stuff that has been vaulted). The only 'savings' that can still be done is of prime parts that are vaulted or soon will be, but even that has been devalued as the prices won't rise until the overwhelming majority of the vaulted relics have been run. So, once again, reinforcing the idea that, if you want to obtain plat in Warframe, you are best off only playing every 2-3 months, and simply logging in every day in the mean time.

Even for a player like me, who never bothered with stockpiling keys, this change still makes it harder to obtain plat, and increases the platinum cost if I want to buy the newest prime parts withing the first 2-3 weeks of release, as they will be even more rare than before.

No matter who's perspective you use to look at Relics 2.0, DE is the only winner, and even that won't last long.

 

PS: I am fully aware that this was a rant. That said, I will not edit or remove a single word unless someone can offer proof that it was wrong (this includes spelling/punctuation; if it's wrong, let me know).

 

Yeah, not any counterproof can be given to quite a few of your points. Quite a level-headed rant.

 

Also on paragraph 2 on the third line of the fourth word you fo- /shot

 

[Shadow1271]

Just a thought for the relic upgrade, instead of changing the %, which in most cases seems to increase the odds equally. How about each level of upgrade gives you an option to reroll on the reward?

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, Shadow1271 said:

Just a thought for the relic upgrade, instead of changing the %, which in most cases seems to increase the odds equally. How about each level of upgrade gives you an option to reroll on the reward?

I don't know. I would be that guy to roll 3 forma

[Loswaith]

On 7/26/2016 at 0:54 AM, Jukantos said:

...

What do you think fellow Tenno? Do the pro's (void trace storing, old primes available forever) outweight the cons? (new relic grinding, old prime devaluation)

Well this is a double edge, the way fissure missions and relics blend together now is an improvement for the purpose of getting players to play nodes all over the star-chart for a bit of variety. 

However that in of itself didn't address the real issue of the excessive grind that the void actually caused; which is only slightly fixed by specific tasks; the ability to enhance relics and/or have 4 identical relics for a run with 4 players (both pluses).  The down side is if you don't have the enhanced relics or 4 identical ones it is worse drop rates (or much the same with triple identical relics) just on the fissure runs themselves (while many players play solo, duo or triple member groups, or even aren't that organised to have identical relics) for rare parts (ones that really matter) this becomes a huge portion of the player base being worse off.  While stopping any real ability to help others (likely the worst downside) with fewer or without the relics themselves (typically newer players) without making the whole process worse for the group as a whole.

Then you have the trace hunt on top with it's huge variance gap of 6-30 traces gained per mission (unboosted).  This can cause huge gaps between players on the number of missions they need to do to hit the 50/100 traces per upgrade.  Maybe having a smaller variance (say 20-30 per run) or the ability to collect more reactants and gain an additional trace per extra reactant (even if it just caps to the 30 you could randomly get), would help reduce that variant gap and the ancillary grind in the process, while giving longer missions more incentive to play.
The larger pool on traces is good and lets players stock up to run only radiant relics when new primes hit, while reducing the amount of wasted traces too.

As to the relic grind, that is really only going to fully tell when we get the Nekros prime batch and the impact it will have overall on the process (so will hold off to really see that in operation before commenting).

As to relics in the future I see us having so many variants of them they will be quite cumbersome to handle overall.

[Rem_NL]

On 7/25/2016 at 4:54 PM, Jukantos said:

But that's also where we come to the first controversial change. New Primes will be released in the form of completely new relics, and the relics our old keys have been converted into, will hold no value in acquiring new primes. This is what made me most disappointed about the changes, as it introduces two problems. 1) The old farming void defenses until you get that one out of eight prime drops is now going to be replaced by grinding normal relic farming missions until you get that one out of eight new relics that COULD have the new items in it (and even though we can pre-grind void traces there is still an additional layer of RNG on top of something that's pretty much as grindy as the old system) and 2) ANY prime item associated with the relics that have been created via conversion out of THOUSANDS of old keys players were hoarding will obviously be "forever available", but also completely worthless in price, as there will be WAY more relics than players, and probably way more potential sets of all the prime items than even players in the playerbase. All they will be good for is ducat conversion.

This is why I am pretty much done with DE.

What will be next? When are people actually opening their eyes and realize what this means to the players that have made this game grow? This is not rewarding, but punishing veteran players the hardest.

I bet DE realized after the whole Key to Relic conversion how many keys some players own, and capitalized hard on this with creating artificial inflation. Well if it was inflation it would't have been this bad, but this change basically NULLIFIES all the grind we did before, and introduces new grind for a chance to grind again to grind for the part we actually need/ want. 

Personally I hope it will start to show in the player base numbers, because obviously that is the only form of "value" for some people in management. 

This will probably be flagged as dev bashing, by some overzealous admin because Its nay impossible to vent any form of discontent/ critisism in a certain tone without getting censored.

As a wise man once said: "You can't polish a turd, even if we get slightly more relic farming variation"