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Fissure 2.0 is not a change for the better.


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It is apparent by the title that I don't like the new changes and I don't believe they create more engaging game play. My reasons are as follow:

It's still a mini game within a mission. It takes focus off the objective and on to collecting reactant.

Reactant is not shared so people are now working together for a common goal but trying to get the reactant and leave. This has left me not being able to open my relic many times.

I sometimes cant pick up the reactant. Depends if the game wants to work at that moment.

It removes the fun of endless missions. I like running endless missions because it was a risk reward style game play.  Seeing how far I could push myself and the risk off losing all the loot.

If I just wanted to play for fun and get a reward I could pick any mission type now I have to do what is in rotation at this time. That removes player choice. If you have all the prime stuff you're farming for ducats or to sell on the market. The ability to farm a specific item is pointless. I'd rather be able to choose what type of mission to do based off what game mode I want to play.

The void tears are not entertaining. They maybe novel for a short period of time but that too will get old.  

I don't see why the traditional void and the relic system can't work together. 

Just have the void title set give random prime items so that people will be incentivised  to use the relic system if they want a certain item.

Overall I think this system is rushed and it apparent seeing as you revised the system soon after releasing it.

People saying just get used to it brush away real concerns without addressing them.

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Personally, I don't have real concerns with the new void system. I like it. I do think it augments the mission and I no longer see it as a minigame. That's my opinion.

 

BUT with so many people hating it, I'd say yes, give it time. If within a month it's still awful for everyone, maybe think about conjoining the old and new system together like you're saying. Maybe make the RNG on the old void worse to really incentivize people, or make the old void missions an actual challenge, or both. While keeping the choose your reward and plan ahead influence we have over the RNG now.

Edited by JSharpie
typo
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58 minutes ago, Elysabelle said:

-snipe-

This post was actually pretty constructive and talked about real problems people have been having. Not every post saying something needs work is a bad post.

Good and bad are subjective, and I have seen a lot of people talking about not being able to get enough reactants, and he's right about removing player choice in mission type compared to the old void system. I really like his ideas, and I'm a person that enjoys the new void system.

Post bashing is just as bad as dev bashing. Don't do either.

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Wait, reactant isn't shared? That's a pretty glaring flaw, and flies in the face of everything Warframe when it comes to drops...

Other than that I can't really agree with what you're saying. 

The variety of tileset is a lot nicer than getting bored of the otherwise-stunning Void tiles.

The fissures don't really feel like a mini-game to me... and simply killing things rarely fails to mesh well with the mission type.

Picking up reactant is no more difficult than picking up a mod. Chances are you're just dealing with host-client issues, which have been and probably will continue to be timeless.

Even if it costs 4 keys up from 1, having extra rolls per run is nice, and definitely lowers the frequency of getting absolutely nothing you want.

Endless missions still exist, and still offer rewards. If you like running endless for the sake of running endless, it shouldn't matter if there are Primes involved or not. 

Personally, I like the lore implications of watching corruption occur in real-time, too.

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Reactant not being shared is actually why it currently works. It allows you to pick reactant at your own pace, avoids people afking in the mission, wait for your cat to use his buff so you get more traces (they're not shared, it's a random number for everybody.)

 

I actually like it the way it is now. I don't need a nekros to farm traces, I just need my cat.

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1 hour ago, GodbladeZ said:

It's still a mini game within a mission. It takes focus off the objective and on to collecting reactant.

...

The void tears are not entertaining. They maybe novel for a short period of time but that too will get old. 

...

People saying just get used to it brush away real concerns without addressing them.

"Fun" is an objective thing, and the community seems equally divided on whether or not the new Void system is fun/better than the old. I'm with you, GodBladeZ, in that I do not think this system is more fun than the old. It's currently novel, yes, and some people probably think that equates to fun. Their opinions may change. Some people really do find this system fun, and good for them.

Personally, I'm not looking at the architecture when I'm in a mission, and the environment doesn't usually affect gameplay, so swapping Orokin for Grineer Galleon is simply a cosmetic change and does nothing to break up the grind. From my perspective, the new system creates more scenery fatigue since we're now spending nearly all of our prime part farming time on the old tile sets: We have to grind the old tile sets for more relics, and then grind for reactant and prime parts on those same old tile sets.

The devs have made it quite clear that they love this new system and it is here to stay. They may alter how much the enemies are buffed or tweak how reactant is collected, but the principal will be the same. Even still, I encourage people to post their thoughts, good or bad, on the changes. DE won't be able to please everyone all the time, and some of their changes are going to fall flat with a certain portion of the player base. It's important for them to know what is attractive and why, so they can build on it and make the game better for everyone.

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1 hour ago, PrivateRiem said:

Reactant not being shared is actually why it currently works. It allows you to pick reactant at your own pace, avoids people afking in the mission, wait for your cat to use his buff so you get more traces (they're not shared, it's a random number for everybody.)

 

I actually like it the way it is now. I don't need a nekros to farm traces, I just need my cat.

It does not allow you to pick it up at your own pace because I things like exterminate the players might get to the end and pick up all the reactant they need to complete the relic and the mission close out before the other two player figure out what object the reactants glitched into or where on the map it dropped. It does the opposite from work. Warframe's focus is on teamwork at least with the 1.0 all effort was a team effort.

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1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Wait, reactant isn't shared? That's a pretty glaring flaw, and flies in the face of everything Warframe when it comes to drops...

Other than that I can't really agree with what you're saying. 

The variety of tileset is a lot nicer than getting bored of the otherwise-stunning Void tiles.

The fissures don't really feel like a mini-game to me... and simply killing things rarely fails to mesh well with the mission type.

Picking up reactant is no more difficult than picking up a mod. Chances are you're just dealing with host-client issues, which have been and probably will continue to be timeless.

Even if it costs 4 keys up from 1, having extra rolls per run is nice, and definitely lowers the frequency of getting absolutely nothing you want.

Endless missions still exist, and still offer rewards. If you like running endless for the sake of running endless, it shouldn't matter if there are Primes involved or not. 

Personally, I like the lore implications of watching corruption occur in real-time, too.

I've had multiple games where I couldn't pick up the reactant. At least in the old void mission if I got to the end of the mission I knew I was getting something. Now I have to hope and pray the system functions correctly or I've wasted my time.  I didn't say I like the running of endless missions for the sake of it I said I liked it because the risk and reward element associated with getting prime items.  The rewards from regular endless mission isn't all that exciting when it's resources and relics and you've already build most of the weapons in the game.  Maybe mini-game is not the right phrase more like a gimmick.

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I enjoy the new relic system. It adds a little more difficulty to missions that are otherwise a piece of cake. They do need to increase the pickup range of reactant though, or at least make carrier able to pick it up.

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I gave them an honest try, but I don't care for them much.  They just aren't very engaging.  At least the old fissures got the awful experience over with all at once.

One new problem that I have is if you kill the monsters too fast sometimes the fissure spawns after they are dead.  I found that I had to actually disengage from combat to allow the fissure time to spawn and corrupt the enemies.  This was kinda meh to me because it feels like I have to play half-&#! to complete the fissure.  I also have to hold off using certain powers that kill enemies out of view because it's not productive for finding reactants.

I think it was a good try though, and maybe we're getting a little warmer.  We've got quite a ways to go though before Specters of the Fail becomes enjoyable and I change my Steam review back to positive.

 

 

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2 hours ago, GodbladeZ said:

This has left me not being able to open my relic many times.

 

13 minutes ago, Clowee said:

One new problem that I have is if you kill the monsters too fast sometimes the fissure spawns after they are dead.  I found that I had to actually disengage from combat to allow the fissure time to spawn and corrupt the enemies.  This was kinda meh to me because it feels like I have to play half-&#! to complete the fissure.  I also have to hold off using certain powers that kill enemies out of view because it's not productive for finding reactants.

If there is any real chance that you might not be able open your relic in the mission or that you are punished for being too efficient those things must change or the system only serves to disengage players from the game.

It sounds like both of these issues could be solved by guaranteeing a number of enemies per fissure.  Let's say 20 enemies per fissure.  If 15 enemies get corrupted, then 5 addition spawn out of the fissure.  If there are no enemies to corrupt all twenty spawn out of the fissure.

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i don't understand why we need to collect these reactants, we are space ninjas not space collectors. let us fight mini bosses. spawn new void enemy types. new enemy mechanics that have synergy between them so we need to fight based on the enemy type that is being spawned. don't just nullify us to the ground or dispel us to oblivion, that is just annoying. Make these enemies worthwhile to fight so we feel justified as space ninjas. i mean im looking at ALL my arsenal and i'm like ... its getting really crowded. i own almost every kind of weapon of destruction and abilities of destruction, but i still get killed by a one shot from an unseen enemy and leave me cracking my head, "what killed me???"

revive.die.repeat

i think its long overdue. we need ENEMY AI version 13.37!!  

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wait, so I need a kavat to get more than 6-30 traces in a game? I thought the point of this hotfix was no more using things to get more than others/necessary. This whole system is terrible. Why couldn't they just expand the void into the direlect and moon and actually fix drop tables? Void 2.0 wasn't necessary.

Edited by -Voltage-
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9 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

 

If there is any real chance that you might not be able open your relic in the mission or that you are punished for being too efficient those things must change or the system only serves to disengage players from the game.

It sounds like both of these issues could be solved by guaranteeing a number of enemies per fissure.  Let's say 20 enemies per fissure.  If 15 enemies get corrupted, then 5 addition spawn out of the fissure.  If there are no enemies to corrupt all twenty spawn out of the fissure.

This would be a step in the right direction for sure, but it is still a bandaid being placed over a gaping lesion.

They really should not have taken things away from us like they did.  Not everybody who did endless missions played them for hours per mission, or went into hundreds of waves.  Some of us just liked to run a 20-40 wave defense mission, maybe get some loot, chatter on about something and call it a night.

It's not like mobile defense missions or capture missions rewarding prime items is new.  This has always existed in Void 1.0.  The difference now is you do not get as much choice as to what you want to play, when you want to play it and how long you want to play it for.

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6 hours ago, Clowee said:

This would be a step in the right direction for sure, but it is still a bandaid being placed over a gaping lesion.

They really should not have taken things away from us like they did.  Not everybody who did endless missions played them for hours per mission, or went into hundreds of waves.  Some of us just liked to run a 20-40 wave defense mission, maybe get some loot, chatter on about something and call it a night.

It's not like mobile defense missions or capture missions rewarding prime items is new.  This has always existed in Void 1.0.  The difference now is you do not get as much choice as to what you want to play, when you want to play it and how long you want to play it for.

Endless mission do need to make a comeback in some meaningful form.  Maybe make a relic queue?  Every 10 mins or waves equip the next relic in your queue?  That would keep the open rate in line with the shorter missions but also give a point to staying in the mission longer.  Maybe make it so that there is a void trace bonus for staying to open relics beyond the first one?

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The Fissure rework is better... But it's still not good.

I've talked about this on other threads on how endless missions can come back and how the fissure/relic system would be undamaged by such additions.

#1 The Void rewards Traces. Eximus in the Void drop Traces instead of Relics in addition to rotation rewards.

#2 Survival & Defense Fissure missions give the player a 2nd row of rotation options each round. This 2nd row displays relics and hovering over each displays the loot for each relic. You may also choose to upgrade that relic on the fly. You're previous relic will be selected by default if no others are selected. However you still only get end mission Traces rewards.

# Excavation is exempt from this as it does not have rotations and is currently the best Core/Relic farm by a large margin. Possibly revert some of the nerfs in the past to ensure it remains a great framing option by comparison. We could also remove all mods from the rotation and further credit rewards while adding these and new mods to Survival / Defense (ie Tempo, Astral  or Acolyte mods).

Grats, we now have more options of play, the "Relic to Part" conversion remains the same, the Void has meaning and players may still choose to do 5min spam missions if they want.

As a side note Lith and lower Tier Relics should drop from higher level missions and more of the higher level endless missions need to be standardized around R5 x5 rewards so we have more options to farm Relics as well while maintaining the Newbie to Veteran play gap. On the other hand if we keep the Relic level gap, newbies have a great entrance into the player market as veterans will be less likely to farm Lith Relics.

Edited by Xzorn
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21 hours ago, GodbladeZ said:

It is apparent by the title that I don't like the new changes and I don't believe they create more engaging game play. My reasons are as follow:

  1. It's still a mini game within a mission. It takes focus off the objective and on to collecting reactant.
  2. Reactant is not shared so people are now working together for a common goal but trying to get the reactant and leave. This has left me not being able to open my relic many times.
  3. I sometimes cant pick up the reactant. Depends if the game wants to work at that moment.
  4. It removes the fun of endless missions. I like running endless missions because it was a risk reward style game play.  Seeing how far I could push myself and the risk off losing all the loot.
  5. If I just wanted to play for fun and get a reward I could pick any mission type now I have to do what is in rotation at this time. That removes player choice. If you have all the prime stuff you're farming for ducats or to sell on the market. The ability to farm a specific item is pointless. I'd rather be able to choose what type of mission to do based off what game mode I want to play.
  6. The void tears are not entertaining. They maybe novel for a short period of time but that too will get old.  
  7. I don't see why the traditional void and the relic system can't work together. 
  8. Just have the void title set give random prime items so that people will be incentivised  to use the relic system if they want a certain item.
  9. Overall I think this system is rushed and it apparent seeing as you revised the system soon after releasing it.
  10. People saying just get used to it brush away real concerns without addressing them.

You have a lot of points, I went ahead and bulleted them and Ill respond in similar fashion.

  1. The main goal of running relics should be, well, running the relic for the relic reward rather than the mission objective. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the most popular Void Fissure mission is capture because you can get in and out as soon as you've collected your traces. Personally, after spending 4 interception waves, 20 defence rounds, or 20 minutes in survival or excavation farming for often only a single relic I just want the preceding relic run to be as fast as possible.
  2. I've rarely had this be a problem for any member of any group I've run with. Normally if everyone's staying together everyone gets there 10. If they still need more someone always asks and the group always helps hunt down and mark traces. I've never had a pub group not help out someone who asked and like many I've been running the relics I was grandfathered in with like crazy. Its not like its takes a whole lot of time to get ten. It takes 2 minutes at tops to go from 0 to 10.
  3. Bugs suck we can all agree on that. Hope they fix it.
  4. If you want to challenge yourself there are always endless missions on other planets. The voids still there. Like my point in number 1, the point of relics isn't to run them for the host mission type, its to run them for the relic's reward. Running a survival for 5 minutes for a prime part now is SO much better than having to run it for 20 minutes, especially considering it probably took you 20 minutes in another mission to get that relic in the first place.
  5. Like 4, you have the ENTIRE star chart open to you, hows that for player choice? There's still the Derelict which is pretty good for relic drops. Might as well be Prime drops. There are also specific maps and game modes people are playing right now to farm for specific era relics, so in spirit your endless mission types are still there of all tiers. If you want to run non infinite then whats the harm with void 2.0 missions? Itll actually be a step up in the sense that you'll have more control over your reward.
  6. I agree that they're not exactly a deep or varied system but you only have to put up with them for 2-5 minutes if your aiming for efficiency or whatever the length of your other game modes. Its designed to be short which is a good thing. Again, most players want to be in and out after the length to get the relic.
  7. I agree. I would love to see the Void "planet" become significant. Maybe add relic drops where there used to be prime drops.
  8. See 7.
  9. A lot of SotR was rushed. Without Public Test Servers where players can give opinions on systems though, changes are to be expected as the system is honed down.
  10. I'm not going to say "get used to it" but if you take a close look at this system its not all that different from the old one. You're running either 20 minutes of survival, 20 round of defense, 4 rounds of intercept on specific maps over varying difficulties (simulating tiers) for guaranteed relics(guaranteed prime parts.) You can still "push yourself" in those missions with parties to get more relics. The only difference is that you have to run these relics to get your prime parts. If your doing it efficiently it adds such a minuscule amount of time to the total. If you want to still run the non infinite game modes you missed out on, you can do that by running you relics on those game modes. You're being really unfair on the new system, particularly on freedom when thats on you. You have the freedom to pick any mission on the starchart to challenge yourself, the freedom to choose how you farm relics, and the freedom on how you run them.
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On 7/28/2016 at 5:17 PM, Brizmuth said:
  • Like 4, you have the ENTIRE star chart open to you, hows that for player choice? There's still the Derelict which is pretty good for relic drops. Might as well be Prime drops. There are also specific maps and game modes people are playing right now to farm for specific era relics, so in spirit your endless mission types are still there of all tiers. If you want to run non infinite then whats the harm with void 2.0 missions? Itll actually be a step up in the sense that you'll have more control over your reward.

 

  • I agree that they're not exactly a deep or varied system but you only have to put up with them for 2-5 minutes if your aiming for efficiency or whatever the length of your other game modes.

 

1. True, the start chart is open to you for farming relics, (presumably,) but it's the same thing as it was before with key farming, so there's not really an improvement. DE didn't really "open up" the star chart, they just closed off the void for farming.

2. You put up with them for 2-5 minutes for every single mission. It gets boring, fast, especially when the point of Void 2.0 was to break up the monotony.

Also, consider that some people don't want to spend 5 minutes on a relic. Some people enjoy running the mission for the sake of the mission. The suspense it creates and the challenges it poses are actually fun, and the end-of-mission reward was the cherry on top. This new system takes much of that intrinsic enjoyment out of the mission and replaces it with a laser-guided focus on relic cracking, which is good for some but not so great for others.

Also-also, the reward should be commensurate with the amount of effort that goes into something. If you spend 15 minutes on a level 40+ survival to get the relic, and then you only need 2 minutes of a no-brainer mission to crack it open, you feel cheated. Especially when the reward isn't what you wanted. At least, I feel that way. At that point the prime part becomes trivial compared the energy I put into obtaining the relic. With the old system, the keys were easy to get while the actual reward was the more difficult, so the reward felt worth it. If you didn't get the part you wanted, it didn't feel like you wasted a precious key. In a way, DE is frontloading the time/effort spent to get a relic rather than backloading it like with the old system: Players now have to spend more time farming "keys" and less time acquiring prime parts. Overall time spent? Probably the same? But the reward is farther removed from the actual effort invested. (That was horribly long-winded and I apologize.)

Edited by IcicleFerret
Corrected "void" to be "void 2.0"
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I feel the new void fissure "2.0" or whatever it is is great. It really, really shines in Mobile Defense missions and Excavations. I played my first M.Def mission in the dead of night for my region and I was only grouped up with one other tenno, and my first text chat halfway into the mission was, "This is fun as hell", to which my fellow tenno said, "Got that right". Doing a mid-level M.Def mission with a bunch of level 40 enemies spawning and making things crazy was great and challenging and not at all boring.

A little lackluster in other modes, especially exterminate, but that's okay. Perhaps there will be some fine tuning - or not. Maybe some people like the other modes, or not.

 

As far as the Void itself is concerned, I imagine DE has other plans in mind for it, and I wouldn't be so quick to insist that we return to the old formula of void missions. I really like how they are starting to string the story together (at last) and some of the stuff mentioned at Tenno-con (I'd like to bring the game out of the solar system - Steve) really excites me. I keep reminding myself that Warframe is working on a weird production cycle - innovate, test, test, produce, patch, patch, patch, and then finally a chance to innovate again. They're doing the slowest kind of development in the world because they already have a devoted playerbase, and they're carrying it off with reasonable aplomb.

Some people question about whether the game should be in beta or not, given the gameplay and that they're accepting cash transactions and so on - I argue that the story is a patchwork mess that's getting slowly backfilled and forward-filled, and there's no real endgame yet (fashionframe?), so it is definitely in Beta for me. A bit of patience, perhaps, regarding the Void, might go a long way.

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On a whim I decided to pick up a 20 wave Void Defense mission because all these brilliant people are pointing out that we can still do them.

Our rewards were:
3 common rarity mods and a low value yellow mod.

 

Thanks for the suggestion guys!  THAT WAS TOTALLY WORTH MY TIME!  We would have stayed until 40, but you know, we had to IMMEDIATELY RUN TO OUR LISET AND RANK FAST HANDS!  I guess next you're going to suggest eating cereal with chop sticks because we can do it?

Fissures suck.

Edited by Clowee
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On 7/27/2016 at 7:19 PM, PrivateRiem said:

Reactant not being shared is actually why it currently works.

...

avoids people afking in the mission

That's actually a really good point. Leeching was a really annoying and widespread issue with the old Key system, and now that you mention this, it makes sense for the devs to deliberately prevent reactant-sharing for this reason.

 

The one thing that kind of bothers me about this new system is that Carrier's vacuum won't work on the reactants for no discernible reason. I hope the devs aren't going down the horrible Maplestory / Vindictus route, where they decide to add arbitrary "exceptions" to abilities that are deemed too popular (as opposed to actually addressing what makes them so disproportionately popular in the first place).

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2 hours ago, IcicleFerret said:

 

  • Some people enjoy running the mission for the sake of the mission. The suspense it creates and the challenges it poses are actually fun, and the end-of-mission reward was the cherry on top. This new system takes much of that intrinsic enjoyment out of the mission and replaces it with a laser-guided focus on relic cracking, which is good for some but not so great for others.
  • Also-also, the reward should be commensurate with the amount of effort that goes into something. If you spend 15 minutes on a level 40+ survival to get the relic, and then you only need 2 minutes of a no-brainer mission to crack it open, you feel cheated. Especially when the reward isn't what you wanted. At least, I feel that way. At that point the prime part becomes trivial compared the energy I put into obtaining the relic. With the old system, the keys were easy to get while the actual reward was the more difficult, so the reward felt worth it. If you didn't get the part you wanted, it didn't feel like you wasted a precious key. In a way, DE is frontloading the time/effort spent to get a relic rather than backloading it like with the old system: Players now have to spend more time farming "keys" and less time acquiring prime parts. Overall time spent? Probably the same? But the reward is farther removed from the actual effort invested. (That was horribly long-winded and I apologize.)
  1. My point about have the starchart open to you to run missions is that if you want to run missions for the sake of the missions, you can pick any mission from the entire star chart, any node. You could do this before and you can do this now. The keys and relics have always been a cherry on top. Now, players have indentified speicifc missions that simiulate void missions. Its the same difficulty, on the same endless missions with the same rewards at the same intervals. Not exactly the same rewards because now you have more control over it and technically the time it takes for the overall process has been halved which I'll explain in 2.
  2. Keys were never as easy to get as you made them out to be. Sure you could pick the occasional one up by running a random mission but people were still farming them like they are with relics currently. The reason why people are going all out with finding the optimal relic farm is because Void 2.0 is more efficient system. Before you had to run 20 minutes just to get a key. If that key was a survival key, you then had to run 20 more minutes just to get a prime part which you had NO control over. You couldn't bring your drop table with you to Void 1.0, you couldn't infuse them to increase your chances of getting the rarer items, and yes there ware rarer 2% drop items like there are with relics. You still have your infinite game modes that are just as challenging as each of your Void tiers in 2.0 that reward you your prime parts for every 20th wave or minute you survive and you can still run them infinitely, the only catch is that you have to crack them open now.
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