{spolierino} Lotus x Margulis / Stalker x Ballas

[PookieNumnums]

Hi,

This is just a little post to get some feedback on what you guys think the deeper correlation (if any) between margulis, natah, ballas, and ol' stalkerino

 

Here is what i think we are being told

 

A. Ballas and Margulis were lovers.

B. Margulis is responsible for both saving and making useful the tenno, via constructing margulis implant and synaptic link.

C. Margulis was punished by the Orokin for breaking the rules, regardless of how convenient and fortunate the outcome.

D. Ballas Hates the tenno, attributing the death of margulis to the existence of the tenno. If they had not been involved, she would never have been punished.

E. Stalker doesnt hold the orokin court responsible, as the rules were known. Their enforcement of law was only a side effect of the real issue, she helped the tenno and paid for it with her life.

F. Blind with rage and hatred for the tenno and being hell bent on revenge, his only chance of a level playing field was to become that which he hated. A tenno. So, he freaks out, and sends himself into the void to experience the same changes the children from the zariman (fleet?) went through. HOWEVER, due his lack of knowledge of the Void, he ends up trapped there in the void.  We know the void corrupts things, the fissure mechanic changes fix lists the void as an entity that corrupts. Its possible he met or was 'natah'd' by w/e is evil in the void.. Im thinking the stalker is a corrupted tenno, who went a bit crazy from being stuck in the void for much longer than he anticipated and in that atmosphere where reason logic (and likely time) are skewed or not applicable, there was likely plenty of time for him to mull over his grief and the reason for it, and as such exponentially more insane.

G. Natah is a sentient. Our Lotus, a betrayer of her own right, one of the very enemy that pushed life in this system to near extinction. This sentient Natah for some reason saw our situation and became empathetic, sympathetic, and who's own lack of fertility fueled her maternal instinct to protect the young that could not protect themselves. We know that she was supposed to lead us to a rigged 'victory' built upon many sentient sacrifices, incite mutiny/rebellion, then off us like 'no witnesses' after the deed was done. Despite her orders, she took us under her wing, hid us throughout the system in stasis pods, then came for us thousands of years later when the coast was clear.

H. Natah hid as the Lotus. Remember that we dont 'know' her when the game starts, stasis and memory wipe etc.. 

I. The Lotus succeeded in her task, only to stop at the last step with a change of heart, and take the tenno on as her own offspring. Just a reminder: her task was to infiltrate, support, convert, then destroy. Given the nature of the situation.. WAR.. it didnt seem right to me that Natah just so happened to be a complete softy. There is a Love there that doesnt seem unfounded, and i dont think its 100% born of pity. I think that Natah the sentient, Body Snatched Margulis and as a result obtained her experiences memory and knowledge, which includes some attachments and feelings. And, as such she gained some form or part of the human condition becoming able to feel love.. the love for ballas and the love for the tenno. As such, she couldnt bring herself to murder the living creatures closest to her 'heart' (margulis's). 

         -- i will interject here that i havent decided if i think that natah body snatched margulis  pre or post mortem, or if margulis in fact gave her body u willingly or not.. i can see natah being like 'hey ill protect them for eternity but you gotta give me that sweet meatsuit, oh and you die from the transfer btw but anyhow yeah lets do this! (claps hands together and rubs back and forth)' 

         

what do you think that natah and second dream imply, and how do you think it will relate to the war within?

 

tldr ballas is a corrupted operator that controls stalker and seeks revenge through 'justice' for the death of margulis, whos body was inhabited by natah.

Edited July 28, 2016 by PookieNumnums

[Vesiga]

You wouldn't be the first one with this thought. 
It sounds pretty possible. 

but theres also a thought to think that stalker has no operator, that he's a frame that works on his own thoughts. (maybe ballas was his operator but died from never going in to cryosleep, and the hate of ballas stayed in stalker?) Since Ballas was a executor, and stalker is bent on killing us all. Maybe that would play into how Stalker fights.

Edited July 29, 2016 by Vesiga

[ObviousLee]

it seems pretty spot on save for one detail: hunhow.

unless his scarred burned to a crisp image is some sort of placeholder, then it's safe to assume that hunhow, like lotus, has an independent body that can possibly be made manifest with sufficient power

the only reason this comes to mind is that hunhow's chat display mirrors a twisted, warped and almost destroyed lotus. There really isn't anything to say that all sentients are not in possession of an inner body.

 

Edit: stalker lore also cites him as a low guardian, and it's also been demonstrated in the second dream that he is of the same control system as the rest of the tenno (synaptic link and all dat jazz). so, the question is, how/why would the man undergo a terrible procedure, which would require injection of the virus, exposure to void energy, and then assignment of a warframe, just to get back at those he blames for his loves death.

on top of that, we still don't know of the time lapse between margulis' death and the ceremonial betrayal. all we really know presently is that marge got murked for bein a bad princess, her main beef donator got madddd upset about it and......that's it.

the stalker could be homie, it's possible. but without further info, it's sadly just a theory, albeit a really good one.

Edited July 29, 2016 by ObviousLee

[Kaotyke]

A thing that always confused me about Margulis: WHY she "loved" us while the rest of the orokin looked with contempt?

[ObviousLee]

19 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

A thing that always confused me about Margulis: WHY she "loved" us while the rest of the orokin looked with contempt?

because the prideful and powerful usually look at things that can do way better than them through scientific augmentation as abominations with contempt.

[Kaotyke]

14 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

because the prideful and powerful usually look at things that can do way better than them through scientific augmentation as abominations with contempt.

Still doesnt explain why she was different.

[PookieNumnums]

as stated in my post, its the fusing with margulis that embedded some of her feelings into the post meatmeld lotus. 

now, why she didnt look at the tenno in the same light is as simple as why some grineer rebel and join the steel meridian. not everyone is the same, or agrees with what theyre told they should think/feel. she was perhaps at one time a mother. perhaps her own child was ripped from her and experimented on, as the operators were.

 

stalker was a lower guardian and perhaps an executor but he wasnt a tenno. he didnt have super powers or a frame. it would only be after undergoing the transformation that he would have the ability to control a warframe. definitely dont believe that the stalker is operator-less, as we have an example of how they act with no control as per rhino prime codex. 

in regards to hunhow @ObviousLee his avatar was just a mindgame. the story implies theyre linked, thats how he found lotus and the tenno. beginning to wonder if in fact the war within is the war between the sentient hivemind and the lotus. hunhow did mention something about reclaiming lotus and that he wouldnt be able to stop them.

 

also im not 100% on whether or not the operators have any infection in them. the fissure change update reports the void as an entity that corrupts. is there a mind within that entity? the same mind that fuels the specters at the junctions we murder that produce no oro..?

 

edit: im not trying to imply that we arent or are infected, that we are or arent corrupted, or that i know any more than anyone else. just hypotheses here

Edited July 31, 2016 by PookieNumnums

[UrielColtan]

49 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

Still doesnt explain why she was different.

Although his answer was pretty irrelevant, do you honestly think the Orokin were hive minded unfeeling aliens or something? When we even got beings like Lotus who isn't even human, showing compassion herself?

Its pretty clear from codex and synthesis that the orokin,  regardless of how technologically advanced they were, were still basically people with natural human psychological foibles and traits, such as fear or compassion from particular life experiences.  Internal disagreement with the top brass was likely common among the masses, but with the top brass Orokin facilitating a class system stifling ability to go anywhere or operate anything, through DNA signature lockouts. The masses no doubt had to comply with Orokin establishment rules to survive.

It seemed clear from the Ember codex entry that in spite of Orokin top brass exploitation of human labor and cavalier cloning for servant tasks, they had still not crossed the line of commonly exploiting children. This is a realization that seems likely to have caused Marge to start defy ing her superiors.

Edited July 29, 2016 by UrielColtan

[PookieNumnums]

3 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

Although his answer was pretty irrelevant

 

Its pretty clear from codex and synthesis that the orokin,  regardless of how technologically advanced they were, were still basically people 

It seemed clear from the ember entry 

 

a) lets be nice. 

b) its more clear that from the simaris entries, which refer to an orokin as a MAN. as well, the ordis story depiction personifies the orokin. even with that we have real gauge as to how human they are, or how much of 'humanity' is left in them. I doubt the orokin like alad v looked the same as the orokin hierarchy. as you said dna signiture lockouts to use anything or go anywhere. that includes no doubt technology and augmentation.

and lastly

c) kileen =/= margulis and we have no indicator whether or not the zariman was the absolute first or last ship. all we know is it was the first one kileen knew about.

[ObviousLee]

indeed. there are several informational gaps that are crucial for fully understanding the deeper details of the warframe universe.

things like, how did the sentients reprodcuce after their initial crossing of the void, how many returned, and do they themselves emulate the operator/warframe synergy with an outer vehicular shell similar to hunhow and an interior main body control terminal similar to the lotus? how do their systems work? 

now, i will happily agree to the possibility of a sentient bodysnatching marge, as we don't know the entire extent of their capabilities. hell, we know next to nothing about them in all honesty, which is kind of a problem.

on top of that, something to indicate a timeline of when the first ship hit the void and returned all the way to the last, the start and end of the warframe project as a whole with subtags for each successive breakthrough in the technology, when the infestation was weaponized and used/broken and having to be defended against, as well as most importantly a timeframe of when marge kicked the bucket in relation to the ceremonial betrayal and the actual appearance of the lotus to hide away the tenno.

 

meaning :when did our precursor(infestation) come about, when did it fail, how long was the assault from the sentients going before it failed, when did the warframe project become complete, and when did marge die. 

 

[UrielColtan]

33 minutes ago, PookieNumnums said:

 

a) lets be nice. 

b) its more clear that from the simaris entries, which refer to an orokin as a MAN. as well, the ordis story depiction personifies the orokin. even with that we have real gauge as to how human they are, or how much of 'humanity' is left in them. I doubt the orokin like alad v looked the same as the orokin hierarchy. as you said dna signiture lockouts to use anything or go anywhere. that includes no doubt technology and augmentation.

and lastly

c) kileen =/= margulis and we have no indicator whether or not the zariman was the absolute first or last ship. all we know is it was the first one kileen knew about.

1. Wasn't mean, just true.

2.Apparently you missed my reference to synthesis. It's pretty inarguable that Orokin are just technologically advanced humans from far into the future Earth and that they still retain some human behaviors, regardless of technical advancement..

 

3. I wouldnt doubt that Kaleen is indeed Margulis and one of these names is merely a surname. Both tried to comfort the children on the Zariman, as mentioned in the Ember codex and the  Second dream dialogue and both their faces were scarred as told by Ballas in Second Dream. Not that the two being the same is really relevant to my point. That the exploiting  of Children was new.

  Margulus could have held the same feelings over treating children like guinea pigs or getting ready to be killed off, even if she weren't Kaleen.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by UrielColtan

[ObviousLee]

2 minutes ago, UrielColtan said:

1.wasn't antly 

2.Apparently you missed my reference to synthesis. It's pretty inarguable that Orokin are just technologically advanced humans from far into the future Earth and that they still retain some human behaviors, regardless of technical advancement..

 

3. I woukdn, be so quick to doubt that Kaleen is indeed Marguliwl band one of these names is merely a surname. Both tried to comfort the children on the Zariman, as mentioned in the Ember codex and the  Second dream dialogue and both their faces were scarred as told by Ballas in Second Dream. Not that the two being the same is really relevant to my point. That the exploiting  of Children was new.

  Margulus could have held the same feelings toward treating Chileden like guinea pigs or getting ready to be killed off, even if she weren't Kaleen.

 

 

3.

hittin dat dere sauce a bit tonight, eh?

 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, Vesiga said:

You wouldn't be the first one with this thought. 
It sounds pretty possible. 

but theres also a thought to think that stalker has no operator, that he's a frame that works on his own thoughts. (maybe ballas was his operator but died from never going in to cryosleep, and the hate of ballas stayed in stalker?) Since Ballas was a executor, and stalker is bent on killing us all. Maybe that would play into how Stalker fights.

Stalker just might be YOU...or rather your monstrous ID made real as a result of the damage caused by subjecting children to torturous energies, turning them into soldiers, and then enslaving them in a dreamstate of endless war.

He might even be the collective unconscious of all Tenno.

He was probably born of guilt and trauma and rage, the energies generated by hate, dread, and despair made manifest in a frame.

That "low guardian" watching helplessly from afar may in fact be you, on a subconscious level, immobilized in your pod, as you betrayed and slaughtered the Orokin with your Warframe.

What if this quote from The Second Dream:

"You hate them.  You hate Yourself."

really suggests this:

"You made him because you hate yourself."

And the reason he hesitates to kill you is because it would mean his own death?

He always knows where you are...because he is YOU.

Only by discovering what happened that fateful day and making peace with your actions will stop Stalker.

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[ObviousLee]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Stalker just might be YOU...or rather your monstrous ID made real as a result of the damage caused by subjecting children to torturous energies, turning them into soldiers, and then enslaving them in a dreamstate of endless war.

He might even be the collective unconscious of all Tenno.

He was probably born of guilt and trauma and rage, the energies generated by hate, dread, and despair made manifest in a frame.

That "low guardian" watching helplessly from afar may in fact be you, on a subconscious level, immobilized in your pod, as you betrayed and slaughtered the Orokin with your Warframe.

What if this quote from The Second Dream:

"You hate them.  You hate Yourself."

really suggests this:

"You made him because you hate yourself."

And the reason he hesitates to kill you is because it would mean his own death?

He always knows where you are...because he is YOU.

Only by discovering what happened that fateful day and making peace with your actions will stop Stalker.

 

don't forget the "you wonder if you're the same as them" from hunhow. hunhow refers to the stalker as an individual being that is essentially cut from the same cloth as the tenno.

the most likely situation is that the low guardian had not been awakened from the enthrallment that the warrior tenno soldiers had been freed from by the lotus, and simply still felt the love and adoration all tenno once were forced to feel toward the orokin as he watched them be slaughtered in utter confusion.

from the stalkers point of view, as well as his acolytes, we did something completely unnecessary that betrayed the benevolence of our benefactors, simply because he wasn't aware that anything wrong had actually occurred.

[DiosGX]

The intentional self-corruption via void feels like it holds a hint of weight to me. As a whole, I'm still not entirely, factually convinced that "Stalker" is a Warframe per se in the sense that we know. It isn't just that he has more powers, he has the same powers as multiple other frames. Something about that feels like residue from other frames he encountered... possibly in the void.

 

I have no idea. I just thought I'd toss my perspective into the mix.