The Redeemer is better than Glaives in every conceivable way

[Aktriaz]

I don't know why it took me so long to realize it. Glaives have nothing to offer when placed next to the Redeemer.
I've tried using Glaives in a wide variety of ways; then I put the Redeemer in the same place and it does more and does it better.

I'm going to list all the ways the Redeemer is superior to Glaives, and then try to give feedback on how to improve Glaives. (only Nerfing the Redeemer would do nothing good)

Damage Output - The Redeemer does almost twice the damage of the highest damage glaive (Glaive Prime), can fire shots consecutively. That, and it's extremely easy to land headshots and deal massive damage - especially if you're using stealth. That, and the quick melee for the Redeemer is not much slower and has twice the base damage. Glaives lose in the damage department; they cannot come close to the Redeemer no matter what you do.

Utility - The Redeemer has no travel time and infinite range, fires many projectiles in an area (easy to hit foes), can knockdown nearby foes when you fire it, and can be used consecutively. Glaives have travel time, limited range, and are extremely punishing if you miss your target.

Modding - The Redeemer has no mods specific to it. It has a simple function, that doesn't require any special build to optimize any aspect of it. You're free to shove as many damage and speed mods as you want. Meanwhile, Glaives have mods specific to certain aspects of it. A mod for flight speed, two mods for reduced/increased bouncing, and one more for punch through + AoE damage. Each one of these mods forces you to take off another elemental mod, lowering the glaive's maximum level effectiveness.

Here is what I'm suggesting what be done with Glaives (and Redeemer)

Buff all glaives' damage. Normal attack speed and damage should be increased overall, and have more diversity. The Throw damage of Glaives should be 200-300 OR MORE. There is no reason the Redeemer should out-damage the glaives on top of having a faster firerate.

Give Glaives the ability to lock on to a target. Or something along those lines. Example; When you begin the action of throwing the glaive, an enemy that meets your cross-hairs will be visibly marked on your HUD, and the glaive will soar towards the target when thrown. Depending on how difficult it turns out to use it can be an optional thing; such as only being active if you throw while holding block down. Leading moving targets with Glaives is extremely difficult and it makes Glaives clunky and useless in a heated firefight.

Make the Glaive-Specific mods increase other attributes as well and/or receive changes to how they work. This is to justify removing elemental or damage mods to make room for these. I'm going to give some examples to show what I mean. (I'm not saying specifically what I'm suggesting: just something similar) Suggestions are shown as rank 0 mods.

Whirlwind: +30% Flight Speed, +5% Attack Speed per rank (something similar for the Kestrel Augment)

Rebound: +1 bounce, +0.1m Punch Through

Quick Return: -1 bounce,  +25% AoE damage, +2m AoE range (Like Power Throw)

Power Throw: +25% Throw Damage (applied after other mods. a glaive doing 2000 damage would do 5000 after this mod is added at max rank)

People may disagree with me on this; but I think the Redeemer should make noise when it fires. The Redeemer shouldn't be usable as a stealth weapon. Is a goddamn shotgun. It makes a "boom" when you fire it. Enemies should be able to hear that. This is just my opinion, though. I don't think the Redeemer should be stealth-capable; Glaives should be.

----------------------

There's a long list of weapons in dire need of looks, but I think Glaives are among the ones that suffer the most; as they have another weapon that fills a niche they once had to themselves; and it does it 10x better. That niche being "using a melee weapon as a ranged weapon". And with the New Gunblade on it's way, Glaives are needing a look more desperately than ever.

Thank you for reading.

[rapt0rman]

Yeah, this is something that I've been saying for a while now  : /

 

The only suggestion that I'm against is having the power throw explosion attached to any utility mod, It's my least favorite aspect of the glaives (certainly not bad, but when I think "glaives" the last thing I would ever associate with it is "explosions") and it's unfortunate passing up on other useful utility because of it (currently punchthrough).

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP although we differ slighty on what the solution should be

i do think the gunblades in general should be 'loud' when they fire, of course im sure its a coding issue internally 

 

[-DragonOfTheWest-]

Glaive Prime is my second most used melee weapon. So after a bit of time using the weapon I can definitely agree with this. Unless your using stealth to get crit's and the stealth multiplier associated with it they do laughable damage. The throw attack on them is slow and clunky thanks to the added (and unnecessary) attack before you throw. I love the weapon type but it's in desperate need of a buff (along with a lot of other weapons)

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Thrown melee weapons reward accuracy. Also, channeling builds are far more viable. The explosions are also quite good against sleeping enemies that are grouped up. I think practically free health is the main selling point of them though.

Also, thown melee weapons do actually seek enemies Quick Return and Whirlwind both worsen that though. The exclusive mods for them really aren't required. If you're using more than 2 at once (which should probably be Power Throw and Quick return if you're using 2), you probably have a bad build. I see too many players modding these weapons like they're playing a game where damage isn't everything. If you need damage and you have a bunch of mods that don't add damage, use mods that add damage. (If you still think they need a buff after modding them properly, I think I have some ideas.)

[Misgenesis]

They absolutely could use a buff overall.

If theyre to compete with gunblades then they need their flight speeds buffed and some innate punchthrough. Change the mods to something else.

[Aktriaz]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

Thrown melee weapons reward accuracy. Also, channeling builds are far more viable. The explosions are also quite good against sleeping enemies that are grouped up. I think practically free health is the main selling point of them though.

Also, thown melee weapons do actually seek enemies Quick Return and Whirlwind both worsen that though. The exclusive mods for them really aren't required. If you're using more than 2 at once (which should probably be Power Throw and Quick return if you're using 2), you probably have a bad build. I see too many players modding these weapons like they're playing a game where damage isn't everything. If you need damage and you have a bunch of mods that don't add damage, use mods that add damage. (If you still think they need a buff after modding them properly, I think I have some ideas.)

The standalone viability of Glaives is not the issue I'm talking about (even though it is a valid issue), it's that the Redeemer does the everything the glaive can do but with more damage, faster, and with more reliability. You're talking to me like I'm asking how to make Glaives Good. I know they need every damage mod they can get. Every slot is filled with a +90% elemental mod, a damage mod, attack speed, and maybe the sydicate mod for Kestrel or Lifestrike. I never use the glaive mods. And the Redeemer with the same build is infinitely better. That is my issue.

Thrown Melee Rewards accuracy, yes, but Redeemer does more damage without a need for precision. Aiming at someone's chest with some distance with the Redeemer basically guarantees a headshot, and with stealth I've been able to get 40ks. On groups. Able to clear hallways. Or snipe people from across the map. And be able to fire again almost immediately in case someone somehow survived that.

Do you not see the issue? Have I not made just how superior the Redeemer is to all glaives clear enough?

[ashrah]

try glaive with ivara 200% power and navigator u scoreing hits 200-300k glaive need old trow and specific glaive mods buff..

Edited July 30, 2016 by ashrah

[Aktriaz]

4 minutes ago, ashrah said:

try glaive with ivara 200% power and navigator u scoreing hits 200-300k

Once again, not the issue I'm talking about. Just because one warframe can use a certain less-than-viable weapon effectively doesn't mean everything is a-okay. I don't know why this is people's go-to when people point out a weapon is lacking, they find a really specific scenario or context the weapon is bearable in. It doesn't change the fact that the weapon is still lacking overall.

Edited July 30, 2016 by Actriaz

[ashrah]

20 minutes ago, Actriaz said:

Once again, not the issue I'm talking about. Just because one warframe can use a certain less-than-viable weapon effectively doesn't mean everything is a-okay. I don't know why this is people's go-to when people point out a weapon is lacking, they find a really specific scenario or context the weapon is bearable in. It doesn't change the fact that the weapon is still lacking overall.

only thing that is very annoying that pre trow animation... its very slow even with primed fury... old animation its been much faster

[DrBorris]

No, Glaive Prime is by far a much sexier option as compared to Redeemer.

 

Gameplay however, yeah. They could use some (a lot) of help. But... please no "auto target" or the likes, the most fun part of glaives is leading targets and piercing massive groups of enemies not with a gimmicky game mechanic, but with some skill. There already is a bit of seeking between targets after the initial hit (given you don't have quick return) which seems fine (because it is impossible to predict bounces).

Buffing Glaives is actually really simple. First, remove a thrown Glaive's ability to get a stealth multiplier. If you want to buff Glaives so they are not only viable on stealth frames without making them broken OP with stealth frames, you have to remove that yellow 4x advantage stealth frames get.

Then to compensate the Glaive should deal bow-like (probably through pure base damage rather than crits) damage and glaive-splosions should have Penta like numbers. Is that a huge buff? Yes, but the alternative is having them remain weapons only used for style points over real effectiveness.

 

And I swear the Redeemer made noise when it came out...

-a person whos most used weapon (by far) is Glaive Prime.

[DSpite]

I have an Excalibur account where Glaive is my go-to weapon.

The main "problem" that I have with it is the same problem that people that want to play with Sniper Rifles or weapons like the Flux Rifle or Phage or Conventrix  or other similar weapons will come across, and that is the weapon was "over engineered".

They have overly complicated mechanics, recoil effects, timing effects, etc, that when used in what descends into a "swarm game" makes the weapons primary function - ie killing stuff to stop them swarming and killing you - next to impossible. If my Glaive had a secondary function where heads shots decapitated (one-shot) in a similar vein to the Covert Lethality Mod, then seriously, I might be trying that ALL the time, but instead, you (quickly) reach a point where in order to kill something will take MULTIPLE headshots - if they even have heads to aim at.

Multiple Headshots. With a thrown Glaive. Let that sink in for a second.

Just in case it has not "sunk in" properly, let me give you the problems in point form:

 

* When you throw it, you are disarmed for 1+ second(s).

* It auto-homes (to god knows which points) now, so it veers off from your intended true point of aim.

* If a high damage unit is aiming at you, you don't have 3-4+ seconds to get 2+ headshots in before you are cut down, so you have to play peek-a-boo around corners ... with a weapon that loves clipping corners.

* Try getting a headshot with a slow flying object that can clip practically anything on the way, from wall edges to the tips of your Kubrows ears to the corridor/room literally filled to the brim with units that the Glaive will want to auto-home to instead.

 

And people wonder why Simulors, Tonkors and Sonicors are so common. My Sonicor might not be a "top tier room cleaner", but I can sometimes rack up close to 1000 kills in Excavations mission (had to do multiple 1500-1700 Cryotic runs with PUGs to get some Dojo research started) because I can be flying through the air, or running on walls, or snap-spin 180 degrees because I just saw a red arrow behind me on the radar, and burn off 4-5 shots rapid fire at whatever is there without aiming too much or needing a "spool-up" aiming delay.

The current game play is not conducive to many weapons simply because the pace out-paces the weapons. Unless DE suddenly changes my Glaive to insta-throw, makes it auto-home-headshot IF I was clearly aiming at a head when I let go, gives it innate punch-trough or at least ignore players and pets blah blah ... you get the idea, as the list goes on, it will not be "fixed" as far as I am concerned, and that is never going to happen. At this stage I'd be happy with removing the horrible throw shake and long throw delay just to make it usable again.

DE could nerf my Sonicor to half damage, and it will still be my new "fun" weapon, simply because of how well it fits a frantic combat scenario in Warframe.

[Dogefighter]

Agreed.

[(PSN)atpbx]

Glaive prime used to be half decent, I remember it having quite a pronounced explosive effect when it hit enemies.

Tried using it this weekend and it's gash, when did they break this then?

Edited July 31, 2016 by (PS4)atpbx

[(PSN)MrNishi]

I strongly agree.

 

Except for Kestrel and also unique Glaive weapon was thrown and is airborne, but you can still perform Finisher attacks.

Kestrel Rag-doll puts utility over Redeemer's damage : for high-level enemies when using a squishy frame.

 

Glaive Type weapons can be airborne, yet you can still perform the prompted Finisher attacks.(Banshee Savage Silence build allows thrown Glaive weapon to benefit from Stealth Multiplier and while Glaive was thrown, she can run up to another enemy and still perform a Finisher attack. As opposed to Redeemer being more target dedicated)*

Also when did Redeemer receive Infinite Range?

(Last I checked Redeemer Charged shots had Distance determined by Range Mods)**

[Aktriaz]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

I strongly agree.

 

Except for Kestrel and also unique Glaive weapon was thrown and is airborne, but you can still perform Finisher attacks.

Kestrel Rag-doll puts utility over Redeemer's damage : for high-level enemies when using a squishy frame.

 

Glaive Type weapons can be airborne, yet you can still perform the prompted Finisher attacks.(Banshee Savage Silence build allows thrown Glaive weapon to benefit from Stealth Multiplier and while Glaive was thrown, she can run up to another enemy and still perform a Finisher attack. As opposed to Redeemer being more target dedicated)*

Also when did Redeemer receive Infinite Range?

(Last I checked Redeemer Charged shots had Distance determined by Range Mods)**

The problem is that the Redeemer has a crowd control aspect to it. It can stagger enemies semi-reliably with the shotgun blast, AND everyone within 4 meters of the user are ragdolled when it is fired. Sure, we can all debate the merits of ragdolling a max of 3 people (very inconsistently) at a distance, or however many enemies you can fit in 4 meters.

I, however, stand by my statement when I say the Redeemer is still superior in crowd control. If you're in a situation you desperately need to CC a single or small group of foes, if your far enough to throw the Kestrel you could also run away. If your close (within 4 meters) chances are you can't run away in time, making the Redeemer a lifesaver. Also it can fire immediately after the first shot, in case some more people come into your 4-meter safespace.

When you throw the Kestrel, you've committed to those 1-3 guys you want to ragdoll, and you gotta wait 4-6 seconds before you can use it again. The Redeemer doesn't have that limitation. Plus, I'm pretty sure Loki+Redeemer is as End-Game as builds get. It does THAT much damage.

If you're going so far into late-game that a Redeemer shot no longer does significant damage, then you'd bring a room-wide CC lockdown frame, like Nyx, because Kestrel is not a reliable way to keep yourself alive (and neither is the Redeemer).

Anyway, about Redeemer range; the wiki doesn't say what the maximum range is, only that it was affected by range mods. I have never really had a problem sniping people with the Redeemer, so it probably has a lot of range by default. My guess would be 50m.

[cghawk]

false, the glaives don't have a ridiculous head ache inducing muzzle flash.

[13QZXXTTX]

Glaive Prime is a silent throwing melee. 

Redeemer happen to be a gunblade which you might want silent mods.

Glaive Prime buff would be welcome, as the majority weapon lack, and when those weapon lack, butthurts.

Not enough Forma? Potato should already be in. Well darn it, let just nerf that other overused weapon.

Rinse, Repeat, Re****.